capricorn Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Maybe bin Laden is not dead; he would be a very high-value source of information. First off, I believe Bin Laden has now long ago fed blood seeking fishies and what was left of his clothing has given a few of them indigestion. About your suggestion that in captivity he would disclose a wealth of information. The benefits of such a potential treasure trove of intelligence would be counteracted by a slew of kidnappings of westerners by Bin Laden's followers in an attempted exchange of prisoners. What a disaster that would be for the US administration. With Bin Laden dead there is nothing to barter over. Will those followers seek revenge? Of course. But that's a different challenge to be met when it emerges. The fact that they "buried him at sea" might be technically explainable, but it's not believeable. Perhaps to you it's not believable. But for millions of people the explanation is not in question but in fact welcomed, and puts their mind at ease that a mass murderer has been annihilated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) Perhaps to you it's not believable. But for millions of people the explanation is not in question but in fact welcomed, and puts their mind at ease that a mass murderer has been annihilated. Wrong... Annihilating him would have been to capture him,have him convicted in a trial,,and,string him up between two trees in Central Park spread eagle...Split with a dull knife from his heart to his anus...And let his guts fall out in front of millions... Seeing as these Islamofascists want to turn this world back into a Medieval theocracy,a little Medieval punishment is in order... I'm not a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist,however,the burial at seas thing is little too convenient and even if it did happen,far too repectful for this pile of Islamofascist human excrement... Edited May 16, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 I don't see how anyone can believe that bin Laden wasn't killed. If he were captured instead of killed, if he had long been dead and wasn't really killed at that time, surely those who were left behind at the compound - including members of bin Laden's family - would have said so. Why would they go along with the US's story if it weren't true? It makes no sense. I can't see where anyone needs any proof other than his family members who were there not refuting the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 I don't see how anyone can believe that bin Laden wasn't killed.Especially since Al Queda appears to believe that he is dead are blowing up people in 'retaliation'. If Bin Laden was alive he would have put something out by now mocking the Americans. The only way to make this conspircy theory work is to assume Bin Laden died years ago and now Al Queda thinks that it can gain something by letting the US take 'credit' for his killing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Wrong... Annihilating him would have been to capture him,have him convicted in a trial,,and,string him up between two trees in Central Park spread eagle...Split with a dull knife from his heart to his anus...And let his guts fall out in front of millions... Seeing as these Islamofascists want to turn this world back into a Medieval theocracy,a little Medieval punishment is in order... I'm not a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist,however,the burial at seas thing is little too convenient and even if it did happen,far too repectful for this pile of Islamofascist human excrement... Jack, I confess I have had thoughts of inflicting serious pain on that murderer not to extract intel but to make him suffer physically. Like leisurely pulling his fingernails and toe nails out one by one with red hot pincers followed by scalping of his hair and beard with a dull barber's blade. But until now those were my inner thoughts. What you're advocating is an eye for an eye. On a psychological level that's not how I think we should deal with these misbegotten twisted criminals. A more preferential approach is to act differently than they do or if you like, less barbaric. And in the process create fewer enemies and gain a few friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Especially since Al Queda appears to believe that he is dead are blowing up people in 'retaliation'. At least Al Quaeda seems to need a good reason to blow up people. I can hear them saying that "the reason we blew up that bus is because...." and that I'd be fully convinced by the reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 At least Al Quaeda seems to need a good reason to blow up people. I can hear them saying that "the reason we blew up that bus is because...." and that I'd be fully convinced by the reasoning. You assume they care what you think. They couldn't care less what you think. They have no interest in your support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) First off, I believe Bin Laden has now long ago fed blood seeking fishies and what was left of his clothing has given a few of them indigestion. About your suggestion that in captivity he would disclose a wealth of information. The benefits of such a potential treasure trove of intelligence would be counteracted by a slew of kidnappings of westerners by Bin Laden's followers in an attempted exchange of prisoners. What a disaster that would be for the US administration. With Bin Laden dead there is nothing to barter over. Will those followers seek revenge? Of course. But that's a different challenge to be met when it emerges. Seems like the same challenge. Perhaps to you it's not believable. But for millions of people the explanation is not in question but in fact welcomed, and puts their mind at ease that a mass murderer has been annihilated. Most people will be greatly relieved, but some will see flaws in how this was handled as an opportunity to raise conspiracy theories. They buried him at sea, but this is not how people were dealt with in the past. Other well-known killers were put on trial, necessary to publicly expose the crimes and to show the perpetrator's face to the public. They should not have killed him so quickly and buried him at sea. Since, now that the Obama administration has changed the story a few times we are told OBL was unarmed, and in fact that no one was threatening with weapons, and we are told that he was initially captured and then killed shortly thereafter, it seems reasonable to ask why he wasn't just taken away in the chopper, still alive. I doubt that the order was given to kill, not capture. If they gave that order you'd have to think, there's something to hide. More likely the order was given to kill, capture if possible. But they may have chosen to do it immediately, due to the intensity of the situation. I would guess that most military "hawks" say it's better to show the pictures, especially to those who are loyal to him, so to say to them "This is what we did to your leader. No one can hide from us, and you could be next." That is far more bold thing to do than hiding out of concern that there will be retaliation. The whole security system must be on full alert anyway. Edited May 16, 2011 by Sir Bandelot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Right-wing biased media does exist. Does it not? So what? Of course there exists, here and there, leftist media outlets. My complaint is with the mindless, droning, faith-based belief that "the" media is leftist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Jack, I confess I have had thoughts of inflicting serious pain on that murderer not to extract intel but to make him suffer physically. Like leisurely pulling his fingernails and toe nails out one by one with red hot pincers followed by scalping of his hair and beard with a dull barber's blade. But until now those were my inner thoughts. What you're advocating is an eye for an eye. On a psychological level that's not how I think we should deal with these misbegotten twisted criminals. A more preferential approach is to act differently than they do or if you like, less barbaric. And in the process create fewer enemies and gain a few friends. Just so. All of us (or at least most of us) might now and then indulge in violent fantasies which arguably bear some relation to "justice" in one way or another. That doesn't mean such fantasies are good prescriptions for behaviour. Hell, I sometimes think that those who advocate for torture should themselves be tortured; but not only is that a massive contradiction (demanding that I be tortured under my own thought-experiment formulation)....but I don't really believe it anyway, and certainly would not propose it simply in order to feel that Justice Is Done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Just so. All of us (or at least most of us) might now and then indulge in violent fantasies which arguably bear some relation to "justice" in one way or another. That doesn't mean such fantasies are good prescriptions for behaviour. Hell, I sometimes think that those who advocate for torture should themselves be tortured; but not only is that a massive contradiction (demanding that I be tortured under my own thought-experiment formulation)....but I don't really believe it anyway, and certainly would not propose it simply in order to feel that Justice Is Done. Well... In this case,I'm 180 degrees the other way... Fascism,in all it's forms,must be directly confronted.It must be dealt with swiftly and harshly.We had to do this 70 years ago,and it has raised it's ugly head again,using Islam as it's disguise. I find these people repugnant death merchants who have sullied their faith for all sane,law abiding Muslims. They do not deserve,just as the ealier European Fascists,the dignity of us pretending to be above that behaviour.I find these people (Islamofascists) barely above lower hominids,and should be wiped of the face of the Earth like the Fascists of 70 years ago...That's assuming they rest of the Muslim population does'nt do this favour for all of us on their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 One big question remains...IF, you believe OBL was behind the 9/11 attack, then explain how he was able to pull it off all by himself? IF you believe he did do it all by himself, then what prevents another OBL type to come along and do it again? The people of North America will now never be safe, because their government can't do the job, they failed the last time, they probably fail again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) Well... In this case,I'm 180 degrees the other way... Fascism,in all it's forms,must be directly confronted.It must be dealt with swiftly and harshly.We had to do this 70 years ago,and it has raised it's ugly head again,using Islam as it's disguise. I find these people repugnant death merchants who have sullied their faith for all sane,law abiding Muslims. They do not deserve,just as the ealier European Fascists,the dignity of us pretending to be above that behaviour.I find these people (Islamofascists) barely above lower hominids,and should be wiped of the face of the Earth like the Fascists of 70 years ago...That's assuming they rest of the Muslim population does'nt do this favour for all of us on their own. No heinous criminal deserves ANYTHING. How we treat them has more to do with us, and who WE are, than it does about them. Weve already been over your attempts to redefine the word fascism, and how that word is the most misused word in the english language because so many people attempt to use it as you do... universal word for virtually anything they dont like. Its the swiss army knife of derrogatory political terms. Edited May 17, 2011 by dre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 No heinous criminal deserves ANYTHING. How we treat them has more to do with us, and we we are, than it does about them. Weve already been over your attempts to redefine the word fascism, and how that word is the most misused word in the english language because so many people attempt to use it as you do... universal word for virtually anything they dont like. Its the swiss army knife of derrogatory political terms. And you and I disagree.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 You assume they care what you think. They couldn't care less what you think. They have no interest in your support. Do you think Al Quaeda is grateful for your support? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 And you and I disagree.... This about sums it up... The term, "Islamofascism" has been criticized by some scholars[11] and journalists. Historian Niall Ferguson[12] and international relations scholar Angelo Codevilla consider it historically inaccurate and simplistic.[13] Author Richard Alan Nelson criticized the term as being generally used as a pejorative or for propaganda[14][15] purposes. Tony Judt argued in a September 2006 article in the London Review of Books that use of the term was intended to reduce the War on Terror to "a familiar juxtaposition that eliminates exotic complexity and confusion", criticising authors who use the term Islamo-fascism and present themselves as experts despite not having previous expertise about Islam.[16]Critics such as former National Review columnist Joseph Sobran, and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman argue that "Islamofascism is nothing but an empty propaganda term." used by proponents of the "War on Terror".[14][17][18] Security expert Daniel Benjamin, political scientist Norman Finkelstein and The American Conservative columnist Daniel Larison, highlight the claim that, despite its use as a piece of propaganda, the term is inherently meaningless, since as Benjamin notes, "there is no sense in which jihadists embrace fascist ideology as it was developed by Mussolini or anyone else who was associated with the term."[19][20] Its a simplistic and bogus term dreamed up to trick intellectual light-weights into associating the GWOT with WW2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 About your suggestion that in captivity he would disclose a wealth of information. The benefits of such a potential treasure trove of intelligence would be counteracted by a slew of kidnappings of westerners by Bin Laden's followers in an attempted exchange of prisoners. Right but if you could stage his death, announce it to the world, and THEN keep him locked up for a while to mine him for data then you wouldnt have that issue. Im not saying I believe that happened, I really have no idea. Like I said! We dont know what happened exactly, and probably never will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) Well... In this case,I'm 180 degrees the other way... Fascism,in all it's forms,must be directly confronted.It must be dealt with swiftly and harshly.We had to do this 70 years ago,and it has raised it's ugly head again,using Islam as it's disguise. I find these people repugnant death merchants who have sullied their faith for all sane,law abiding Muslims. They do not deserve,just as the ealier European Fascists,the dignity of us pretending to be above that behaviour.I find these people (Islamofascists) barely above lower hominids,and should be wiped of the face of the Earth like the Fascists of 70 years ago...That's assuming they rest of the Muslim population does'nt do this favour for all of us on their own. As soon as you declare--and genuinely mean it--that all Western leaders guilty of terrorism should be tortured and killed, then I will nod to your point. (I would still disagree, mind you.) At any rate, I don't consider these fellows to be "fascists." they're politically-motivated fanatics with a generous dollop of religion thrown in for good measure, but they're no more fascist than they are liberal. Edited May 17, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 One big question remains...IF, you believe OBL was behind the 9/11 attack, then explain how he was able to pull it off all by himself? He didn't pull it off all by himself but every operation like this needs someone to conceive and lead it. IF you believe he did do it all by himself, then what prevents another OBL type to come along and do it again? Nothing. What's your point? The people of North America will now never be safe, because their government can't do the job, they failed the last time, they probably fail again. No one can ever be "safe". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 As soon as you declare--and genuinely mean it--that all Western leaders guilty of terrorism should be tortured and killed, then I will nod to your point. (I would still disagree, mind you.) At any rate, I don't consider these fellows to be "fascists." they're politically-motivated fanatics with a generous dollop of religion thrown in for good measure, but they're no more fascist than they are liberal. Islam is political as it is a theocratic religion. It does not tend to be liberal which explains why the middle east still, for the most part, looks like a page out of the twelfth century. It is authoritarian and if you were to compare it's political nature to other political structures fascism would probably best fit the description. I think it is necessary it go through the same evolutionary process as the Christian church did in separating church and state. The Christian church basically had governmental powers at the time of the Inquistion and was too cozy with the Monarchical system of governance prevalent at the time. The US wanted freedom of religion and separated church and state. Of course, the intent of that could only mean the separation of religious organizations and state for a man must still be able to have freedom to practice his religion. He cannot make any laws regarding an establishment of religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) Islam is political as it is a theocratic religion. It does not tend to be liberal which explains why the middle east still, for the most part, looks like a page out of the twelfth century. It is authoritarian and if you were to compare it's political nature to other political structures fascism would probably best fit the description. I think it is necessary it go through the same evolutionary process as the Christian church did in separating church and state. The Christian church basically had governmental powers at the time of the Inquistion and was too cozy with the Monarchical system of governance prevalent at the time. The US wanted freedom of religion and separated church and state. Of course, the intent of that could only mean the separation of religious organizations and state for a man must still be able to have freedom to practice his religion. He cannot make any laws regarding an establishment of religion. I agree with much of this, and think it's well past time for some sort of Reformation, religiously and politically. (We may be witnessing something of the latter as we speak.) But no, in considering it's political nature, fascism does not best describe it; ultraconservatism might be a better description, and this is used by authoritarians for their own ends. Edited May 17, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I agree with much of this, and think it's well past time for some sort of Reformation, religiously and politically. (We may be witnessing something of the latter as we speak.) But no, in considering it's political nature, fascism does not best describe it; ultraconservatism might be a better description, and this is used by authoritarians for their own ends. Ultraconservatism- isn't that the far right of the spectrum where if I look I find....fascism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I agree with much of this, and think it's well past time for some sort of Reformation, religiously and politically. (We may be witnessing something of the latter as we speak.) But no, in considering it's political nature, fascism does not best describe it; ultraconservatism might be a better description, and this is used by authoritarians for their own ends. Franco called himslef a "conservative Monarchist" but we all know what he was... Seeing as these Islamofascists have leaned extremely well from some of thier authoritarian (and Fascist leaning) Ba'Athist taskmasters over the years,and being ultraconservative in there theological outllook...Islamofascist seems quite an apt description... Islamofascism has almost all the hallmarks of Fascism with the Islamic faith thrown in for cover... Untranationalist,to the point of being supremecist! Violent thuggery,even amongst their own... It has warped into an theocratic/quasipolitical force in some areas... And there is no question,it is totalitarian/authoritarian in its outlook... Absent any economic similarities,it's pretty much a Fascistic mindset... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Ultraconservatism- isn't that the far right of the spectrum where if I look I find....fascism? It's definately part of the equation... But I thought you were the guy that feels Fascism is a construct of the poltical left...An outgrowth of Socialism run amok? If not,it's good to see you've come around! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) Jack Weber: Islamofascism has almost all the hallmarks of Fascism with the Islamic faith thrown in for cover... ...not to mention unemployed Nazis adding their two-bits. Edited May 17, 2011 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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