British Royal/Celebrity Wedding

[msj]

I know that some people don't pay taxes. I know some drip with contempt towards common people. Please don't attribute it to Judaism unless you can show me some tenets of Judaism that point in that direction.

I haven't attributed to Judaism.

But some people do.

Stop being so naive.

[g_bambino]

And I can't believe you-indeed, anyone- can be as naive as you.

After a certain point, it isn't so much naive as it is an inability to admit error. This shift is generally indicated by a massive increase in emoticon use in place of nuanced or knowledgeable argument.

[Guest American Woman]

Most do.

Mostly, yeah.

And I can't believe you-indeed, anyone- can be as naive as you.

Yeah, right. I'm the one who's "naive."

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say it is "most." "Most" people never move beyond the economic status of their parents and "most" people of the same race are in the same class; "race" determines how much they "achieve" (it's difficult to even type something so demeaning). It's still not all. It can be changed and it's within their power when it does. Are you getting it yet?

You can continue to live with your ignorant misconceptions if you choose, but the reality just as I presented it, and fact is, reality is the only thing that matters.*

*cue g_bambino to start talking about me again.

Edited May 3, 2011 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

...You can continue to live with your ignorant misconceptions if you choose, but the reality just as I presented it, and fact is, reality is the only thing that matters.*

Agreed, and the reality is that throughout American history, social class and strata have been more dynamic than static, giving rise to the very definition of the middle and upper class, as well as the upward mobility that is possible by mere "commoners".

[August1991]

So because the class distinctions in the U.S. are economic, rather than systemic, that's better?

BD, when I do my shopping, the cashier expects me to have money to pay and refuses to give me the items if I don't. I suppose you would call that "economic discrimination" but I call it just having enough money.

So yes. There is a big difference between a "class system" based on how much money you have and a "class system" based on what your father did for a living.

[GostHacked]

Agreed, and the reality is that throughout American history, social class and strata have been more dynamic than static, giving rise to the very definition of the middle and upper class, as well as the upward mobility that is possible by mere "commoners".

Too bad not many can afford to go to these high class universities, like Harvard, Princeton, Yale... the economics of that determine your social class. Can't afford to go to anyone of these? Guess yer not gonna be Prez. And yes I'd like fries with that.

If you are not part of this crowd by birth or by buying into it, you are never going to be part of it.

Edited May 3, 2011 by GostHacked

[August1991]

If you are not part of this crowd by birth or by buying into it, you are never going to be part of it.

The father of Michelle Obama was a postman and she went to Princeton. Obama himself went to Columbia and Harvard Law. So did Clinton. Both Clinton and Obama were raised by single mothers with no claim to social status or much money. These are a just few examples.

Richard Nixon liked to say that he believed in the American Dream because it came true in his own life.

[bush_cheney2004]

...So yes. There is a big difference between a "class system" based on how much money you have and a "class system" based on what your father did for a living.

Bravo...your example distills the difference very well.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Richard Nixon liked to say that he believed in the American Dream because it came true in his own life.

...and Jimmy Carter was a peanut farmer. The American Dream is about opportunity, not bloodlines.

[Black Dog]

Yeah, right. I'm the one who's "naive."

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say it is "most." "Most" people never move beyond the economic status of their parents and "most" people of the same race are in the same class; "race" determines how much they "achieve" (it's difficult to even type something so demeaning). It's still not all. It can be changed and it's within their power when it does. Are you getting it yet?

And they same goes for 99.9% of Brits. Despite the existence of the peerage system, Brits have the same opportunities as Americans for social and economic advancement. In fact, the data shows the U.S. has lower social mobility than the UK, Canada and other western democracies.

BD, when I do my shopping, the cashier expects me to have money to pay and refuses to give me the items if I don't. I suppose you would call that "economic discrimination" but I call it just having enough money.

A classic August non-sequitur.

So yes. There is a big difference between a "class system" based on how much money you have and a "class system" based on what your father did for a living.

Huh? What your father did for a living is probably going to affect how much money you have and what social class you belong to. The only difference between a penniless Duke and a former millionaire is the title, which still won't get you a cup of coffee.

[GostHacked]

The father of Michelle Obama was a postman and she went to Princeton. Obama himself went to Columbia and Harvard Law. So did Clinton. Both Clinton and Obama were raised by single mothers with no claim to social status or much money. These are a just few examples.

Richard Nixon liked to say that he believed in the American Dream because it came true in his own life.

So how could a poor person afford to get into Harvard? Scholarship?

[bush_cheney2004]

....Huh? What your father did for a living is probably going to affect how much money you have and what social class you belong to. The only difference between a penniless Duke and a former millionaire is the title, which still won't get you a cup of coffee.

Really? My siblings and I never had any such dependency or limitation based on what our parents "did for a living". All but one are university graduates, including Yale. Sometimes merit is more important than money.

[treehugger]

I will say I am anti-monarchy. What has the monarchy done for you lately? They are the largest recipients of welfare on this planet!!! I am not happy being refered to as a 'subject'.

Can you or I afford such an elaborate wedding with an elaborate police precense knocking down peoples doors so they don't protest the wedding?

But it's an awesome distraction for the real issues going on around the world. A nuke plant in japan they still cannot control, a new war in north africa, failing economies around the globe ... distractions, and people eat it up.

Why should the Monarchy do anything for you?

As millions of people took part and watched the wedding, I guess you're outnumbered.

Edited May 3, 2011 by treehugger

[Black Dog]

Really? My siblings and I never had any such dependency or limitation based on what our parents "did for a living". All but one are university graduates, including Yale. Sometimes merit is more important than money.

Your personal experiences are not necessarily indicative of the lived realities of the millions of your countrymen.

[treehugger]

Too bad not many can afford to go to these high class universities, like Harvard, Princeton, Yale... the economics of that determine your social class. Can't afford to go to anyone of these? Guess yer not gonna be Prez. And yes I'd like fries with that.

If you are not part of this crowd by birth or by buying into it, you are never going to be part of it.

My daughters all worked their way through the University of Toronto and they all have their chosen careers. One passed with honours. In case you don't know U of T is very expensive also.So I guess their economics have changed,

Today, everyone needs an education to go anywhere.If you are lazy you'll stay on welfare and never anount to anything.You don't have to be born with a silver spoon in one's mouth!

[bush_cheney2004]

Your personal experiences are not necessarily indicative of the lived realities of the millions of your countrymen.

Yes they are, at least to the precision of your "probablies" and "mosts". The point of my personal anecdote is that the opportunity exists regardless of a father's "living" (why not mother?). Class as defined by income, education, or employment is not necessarily limited by parental resources, but they can certainly help.

Edited May 3, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Black Dog]

Yes they are, at least to the precision of your "probablies" and "mosts". The point of my personal anecdote is that the opportunity exists regardless of a father's "living" (why not mother?). Class as defined by income, education, or employment is not necessarily limited by parental resources, but they can certainly help.

And, again, the same is true for 99.9999999% of Brits. So why the superiority complex?

[GostHacked]

My daughters all worked their way through the University of Toronto and they all have their chosen careers. One passed with honours. In case you don't know U of T is very expensive also.So I guess their economics have changed,

Today, everyone needs an education to go anywhere.If you are lazy you'll stay on welfare and never anount to anything.You don't have to be born with a silver spoon in one's mouth!

Well yeah, drive and determination need to exist before one can be successful. Education is getting way more expensive than it needs to be however. My two courses plus living expenses put me in the hole for about 35,000. Took me 9 years to pay it all off. But at least now I am in a career I am happy with. My sister (runs her own design company) taught herself everything she needs to know, some courses here and there, but did not go to college or uni.

If you can afford to get an education that is great, but how much debt is one willing to take on to get that job/career they want?

[g_bambino]

If you are lazy you'll stay on welfare and never anount to anything.You don't have to be born with a silver spoon in one's mouth!

Indeed, one doesn't. What's lost on a couple of people here, though (despite Black Dog's best efforts), is that the children of peers aren't guaranteed to emerge from the womb with an orally planted silver utensil used for eating liquids. A hereditary peerage is nothing more than a mark that tells of the great achievements either of the bearer himself or one of his ancestors (a victorious officer, a prime minister, a national leader); it comes with no ensured perks or financial benefits. Hereditary peers have to earn or maintain their income, just like everyone else; there are more than a couple of peers with middle class lifestyles. Life peerages (ie. non-hereditary) are similar, though they recognise lesser successes; they go to prominent business people and/or politicians.

So, the faux outrage over the peer/commoner divide is a red herring. There really is hardly any difference between the class structure of the UK and that of the US.

[sp]

Edited May 3, 2011 by g_bambino

[bush_cheney2004]

And, again, the same is true for 99.9999999% of Brits. So why the superiority complex?

Because 99.9999999% of the Brits can never rise to the throne....that's why.

[Black Dog]

Because 99.9999999% of the Brits can never rise to the throne....that's why.

Sounds like the same number that can never be President.

[GostHacked]

Sounds like the same number that can never be President.

Or Prime Minister, or Fascist Dictator, or Communist Dictator ect ect ect.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sounds like the same number that can never be President.

No....the number is much smaller....natural born citizens over age 35 can be US president.

[Moonlight Graham]

This is a neat story, if it hasn't been posted already. Kate and William's honeymoon delayed by Bin Laden assassination.

[Guest American Woman]

Sounds like the same number that can never be President.

There's a huge difference between 'will never be' and 'can never be.' As bush_cheney has pointed out, the only requirements for POTUS are about age and citizenship/residence. Who one's ancestors are, what their bloodline is, has no bearing on it whatsoever. Americans grow up knowing that anyone can become president, and there has been proof (as has already been pointed out to you) of the truth of that sentiment. You think the British grow up knowing that anyone could ascend the throne? Or knowing that they never could? Unless they are ignorant, they know they never could.

As I said, a commoner is always a commoner. Based solely on their bloodline. Citizens of the U.S. could be in the lowest economic rank and rise to the top; and there have been people who have done just that with many achieving somewhere in between.