game of thrones

Boges · June 15, 2015

That's a huge death toll for one episode. Stanis, his wife, Myrcella, Miranda, Ser Meryn and the big one: Jon Snow.

I honestly didn't think they'd kill him. Guess I should have known when he let Sam leave.

I'm reading that having Melissandre there might mean he'll be saved somehow.

Reek and Sansa are on the run which is interesting.

I wish they gave some context to Dany being surrounded by, looks like Dothrakis. Are they there to help her.

The Cersi scene was pretty gross. At least we know what FrankenMoutain will look like now.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Boges

-1=e^ipi · June 15, 2015

Are they there to help her.

Why would they help her?

She will probably become their prisoner/slave.

Bonam · June 15, 2015

Why would they help her?

She will probably become their prisoner/slave.

Well, she did used to be Khaleesi...

Boges · June 15, 2015

Why would they help her?

She will probably become their prisoner/slave.

She sort of has a Dragon a few feet away. I doubt that'll happen.

kimmy · June 15, 2015

YOU CAN'T DIE!! YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!!!

ahem. Pretty shocking. Black Dog called it. I foolishly assumed that Jon and the White Walkers would be a major storyline in upcoming seasons; I really didn't think the writers would end Jon Snow at this point in time because it just feels like there was a lot of story left to tell. With nobody left in Westeros who gives a flying crap about fighting White Walkers, I guess that story will be on the backburner until such time as thousands of corpses show up unexpectedly at Winterfell.

Regarding Winterfell... are we supposed to assume that Sansa and Theon are on the run? Or are we supposed to assume they're squished? That looked like a pretty high wall they jumped off of. Unless Brienne and Podrick were waiting at the bottom with a trampoline, I'm not sure we're supposed to assume they survived. What happened to that plan that Sansa and Littlefinger hatched early in the season? It seems like they completely forgot about that and put Sansa back into the Damsel in Distress mode, because apparently that's all they can think of for her to do. She went from Littlefinger's co-conspirator to shrieking at Theon and hoping somebody would come rescue her. I'm thoroughly disappointed in how that storyline was handled.

Arya murdering the living shit out of Meryn Trant was so satisfying. Too bad about what happened later. I assume we haven't seen the last of her.

If I recall, Dany and the Dothraki didn't part on the best of terms. Most of her horde abandoned her when Drogo died; she meant nothing to them on her own. I assume she'll spend most of next season getting rescued, resulting in putting off her eventual war against Westeros for yet another season. Also coming next season: a road movie/buddy movie starring Jorah and Daario. Perhaps they could call it "The Awkward Couple." I assume Daario will find a way to work the fact that he's bangin' the Khaleesi into every conversation.

So... Stannis and his downfall feels positively Shakespearean. When they showed how tiny his remaining forces looked in the face of the onrushing Bolton army, it was such a graphic mismatch you wondered how he could have ever thought he could do it. All of the "Lord of Light" and "Destiny" and "Rightful King" stuff he believed in amounted to absolutely nothing. "Do your duty" are such fitting last words for him.

As with the Hound, I'm sorry to see him go, but as with the Hound I'm really glad that he went out in a way that provided such an appropriate end to the story arc. Both the Hound and Stannis were characters I liked but I felt like their deaths were really fitting ends to narrative arcs. Conversely with Jon Snow, rather the opposite, I felt like there was so much left to do in his story.

I was so happy for Jaime when he finally got to have his father-daughter moment with Myrcella. Back in the episode where she told him "you don't know me!" I wrote about how much that must have stung for him. Finally he tells her the truth, and she says "I know, and I'm so glad you're my father" and I got a big lump in my throat. And then 8 seconds later she's dying from Dornish poison. At least we know now what the point of the scene earlier in the season with Bronn and the hottie: they taught us about the poison, and the little blue vial of antidote.

On the Witch Prophecy Watch, we now note that Cersei is down to her last child (assuming Tommen hasn't committed suicide. We haven't seen that boy for a while.)

Poor Cersei... as awful as she is, that was still tough to watch. I can only imagine the wrath she'll bring against her enemies, especially once she finds out what happened to Myrcella. That wasn't Lena Headey from the neck down... they must have used some of the money they didn't spend on Dire Wolves this season to digitally graft Lena's head onto a body double. Will Cersei find a way to fricken end the fricken Sparrows? Will she do so in a way that saves Margaery's life and Tommen's happiness?

I find the whole FrankenMountain concept incredibly cheesy. I don't know what else can be said about it.

-k

-1=e^ipi · June 15, 2015

Stannis did not have a good day. Wakes up, oh yeah I killed my daughter yesterday, all our siege weapons are destroyed and we have no food. Sir, half your army has deserted you. Sir, all the horses are gone. Sir, your wife killed herself. Sir, the red priestess has left us. Gets outnumbered by cavalry in an open field. Gets a bunch of injuries from fighting. Gets killed (maybe) by the king's guard of his brother.

I foolishly assumed that Jon and the White Walkers would be a major storyline in upcoming seasons; I really didn't think the writers would end Jon Snow at this point in time because it just feels like there was a lot of story left to tell. With nobody left in Westeros who gives a flying crap about fighting White Walkers, I guess that story will be on the backburner until such time as thousands of corpses show up unexpectedly at Winterfell.

Maybe Jon has to die because they need the Wall and most of Westeros to fall to the white walkers so that it will be more epic when Daenarys comes and saves to day? Or maybe he'll be resurrected by the red priestess and/or white walkers? Maybe his uncle is one of the white walkers?

Or are we supposed to assume they're squished? That looked like a pretty high wall they jumped off of.

They jumped into a bunch of freshly fallen snow, they will be fine. I've jumped off buildings into large snow banks before without injury.

What happened to that plan that Sansa and Littlefinger hatched early in the season?

It failed and they didn't predict Ramsey being crazy. Though Sansa did gain information & Theon. My guess is that they'll try to get back to the vale (though Ramsey will hunt them). Petyr has lots of back up plans though, but currently has to deal with the faith militant.

it was such a graphic mismatch you wondered how he could have ever thought he could do it. All of the "Lord of Light" and "Destiny" and "Rightful King" stuff he believed in amounted to absolutely nothing.

He was tricked by the red priestess, I guess.

Will Cersei find a way to fricken end the fricken Sparrows? Will she do so in a way that saves Margaery's life and Tommen's happiness?

Maester Qyburn is her primary ally right now, which is interesting. Qyburn certainly has a lot to gain from all of this.

Black Dog · June 16, 2015

kimmy, on 15 Jun 2015 - 03:13 AM, said:
YOU CAN'T DIE!! YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!!!

ahem. Pretty shocking. Black Dog called it. I foolishly assumed that Jon and the White Walkers would be a major storyline in upcoming seasons; I really didn't think the writers would end Jon Snow at this point in time because it just feels like there was a lot of story left to tell. With nobody left in Westeros who gives a flying crap about fighting White Walkers, I guess that story will be on the backburner until such time as thousands of corpses show up unexpectedly at Winterfell.

I don't think they'd bring Mel back to the Wall if they didn't have a plan for her to use her hoodoo to bring Jon back. If they don't and they just spent five seasons building up a character only to kill them off in a completely arbitrary way, then this show is dumber than LOST.

Regarding Winterfell... are we supposed to assume that Sansa and Theon are on the run? Or are we supposed to assume they're squished? That looked like a pretty high wall they jumped off of. Unless Brienne and Podrick were waiting at the bottom with a trampoline, I'm not sure we're supposed to assume they survived.

I'm betting they made it. It had snowed a lot, remember.

What happened to that plan that Sansa and Littlefinger hatched early in the season? It seems like they completely forgot about that and put Sansa back into the Damsel in Distress mode, because apparently that's all they can think of for her to do. She went from Littlefinger's co-conspirator to shrieking at Theon and hoping somebody would come rescue her. I'm thoroughly disappointed in how that storyline was handled.

Preach. Still not as bad as the whole Dorne roadtrip though.

Arya murdering the living shit out of Meryn Trant was so satisfying. Too bad about what happened later. I assume we haven't seen the last of her.

But has she seen the last of us? GET IT? GET IT?

If I recall, Dany and the Dothraki didn't part on the best of terms. Most of her horde abandoned her when Drogo died; she meant nothing to them on her own. I assume she'll spend most of next season getting rescued, resulting in putting off her eventual war against Westeros for yet another season. Also coming next season: a road movie/buddy movie starring Jorah and Daario. Perhaps they could call it "The Awkward Couple." I assume Daario will find a way to work the fact that he's bangin' the Khaleesi into every conversation.

I am more interested in the Tyrion Viserys show than anything those two *cough* swordsmen get up to. Dany can pull a Bron for next season for all I care; just have her show up in Mireen on Drogon at the head of a Khalesar "Oh man what an adventure" but no actual explanation.

So... Stannis and his downfall feels positively Shakespearean. When they showed how tiny his remaining forces looked in the face of the onrushing Bolton army, it was such a graphic mismatch you wondered how he could have ever thought he could do it. All of the "Lord of Light" and "Destiny" and "Rightful King" stuff he believed in amounted to absolutely nothing. "Do your duty" are such fitting last words for him.

I thought that was great, but it felt extremely rushed. Brienne turning up at just the right moment was a bit of a groaner, though (not to mention her turning away just as Sana lights the effing candle. YOU HAD ONE JOB, BRIENNE!) I would have been happier if they had spent more of this episode in the north and not crammed in so much other stuff. Dany and Arya could easily have kept until next season.

As with the Hound, I'm sorry to see him go, but as with the Hound I'm really glad that he went out in a way that provided such an appropriate end to the story arc. Both the Hound and Stannis were characters I liked but I felt like their deaths were really fitting ends to narrative arcs. Conversely with Jon Snow, rather the opposite, I felt like there was so much left to do in his story.

Which is why he's not dead. Of course, we don't know if Stannis and the Hound are dead either: we certainly didn't see either body.

I was so happy for Jaime when he finally got to have his father-daughter moment with Myrcella. Back in the episode where she told him "you don't know me!" I wrote about how much that must have stung for him. Finally he tells her the truth, and she says "I know, and I'm so glad you're my father" and I got a big lump in my throat. And then 8 seconds later she's dying from Dornish poison. At least we know now what the point of the scene earlier in the season with Bronn and the hottie: they taught us about the poison, and the little blue vial of antidote.

Ugh that whole plot. They just needed something for Jamie to do for a year and to get him out of King's Landing. So they sent him to an episode of Xena: warrior Princess.

Poor Cersei... as awful as she is, that was still tough to watch. I can only imagine the wrath she'll bring against her enemies, especially once she finds out what happened to Myrcella. That wasn't Lena Headey from the neck down... they must have used some of the money they didn't spend on Dire Wolves this season to digitally graft Lena's head onto a body double. Will Cersei find a way to fricken end the fricken Sparrows? Will she do so in a way that saves Margaery's life and Tommen's happiness?
I find the whole FrankenMountain concept incredibly cheesy. I don't know what else can be said about it.

I think war with Dorne is the next move. Those Dornish folks with their sexy sexiness and liberal attitudes towards sexy times would make natural antagonists for the Westoros Bapitist Church. Sand Snakes vs FrankenMountain? Hang on to your hats, folks; you'll need them to keep your brains from spilling out all over the damn place.

-1=e^ipi · June 16, 2015

then this show is dumber than LOST.

It can't be dumber than LOST, that's impossible. Even if it ends in all the purgatory nonsense, it's already many times a better show.

Bonam · June 16, 2015

Hmm well in terms of the Jon Snow storyline, the TV show has caught up to where the books left off. He gets stabbed by the night's watch in the last chapter of A Dance with Dragons.

So nothing else to spoil, only speculation...

One thing the show has not touched on, that is mentioned in the book, is the "warg" abilities that Jon Snow possesses, which is part of the same set of abilities that Bran has, which he used to briefly control Hodor. In the book, a wildling with the same abilities, Varamyr, is able to flee his body when he is killed and have his consciousness inhabit a wolf or something. So I'm gonna guess Jon Snow's spirit will inhabit his wolf.

-1=e^ipi · June 16, 2015

One thing the show has not touched on, that is mentioned in the book, is the "warg" abilities that Jon Snow possesses, which is part of the same set of abilities that Bran has, which he used to briefly control Hodor. In the book, a wildling with the same abilities, Varamyr, is able to flee his body when he is killed and have his consciousness inhabit a wolf or something. So I'm gonna guess Jon Snow's spirit will inhabit his wolf.

Given that wolves don't have very large brains compared to humans, how does that affect the inhabiting spirit's cognitive ability?

Bonam · June 17, 2015

Given that wolves don't have very large brains compared to humans, how does that affect the inhabiting spirit's cognitive ability?

The implication I seem to remember from the book (it was years ago that I read it) was that the inhabiting consciousness would fade away over time. And no, I don't have a good estimate of the decay time constant

-1=e^ipi · June 17, 2015

Does anyone think that Stannis could have easily defeated Bolton if he made peace with Mance, rather than killed him?

And no, I don't have a good estimate of the decay time constant

kimmy · June 17, 2015

A Ramsay Bolton Retrospective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WEQnwF4yoWI

What a great guy!

-k

kimmy · June 17, 2015

I don't think they'd bring Mel back to the Wall if they didn't have a plan for her to use her hoodoo to bring Jon back. If they don't and they just spent five seasons building up a character only to kill them off in a completely arbitrary way, then this show is dumber than LOST.

I agree. Even though they've spent 5 seasons teaching us that nobody is too important to die. I think perhaps this is one reason they might have decided to ditch the "Lady Stoneheart" angle. If people start coming back from the dead on the regular, then Jon Snow's eventual resurrection seems predictable, hackneyed, and not particularly special. In season 3 they did include that guy that Thoros of Myr resurrected, which seems pointless for the most part but on the other hand does indicate that Red Priests/Priestesses do have this sort of power. They could go with Red Witch magic (she'll have to get the body before it's cremated, I would think?) but there's also this possibility regarding his wolf, as others are discussing.

I am more interested in the Tyrion Viserys show than anything those two *cough* swordsmen get up to. Dany can pull a Bron for next season for all I care; just have her show up in Mireen on Drogon at the head of a Khalesar "Oh man what an adventure" but no actual explanation.

Tyrion and Varys (Viserys got his 'golden crown' five episodes into season one...) are a great pair, and I'm sure they'll be running Essos by the time Dany returns. More Varys is almost always a good thing.

I thought that was great, but it felt extremely rushed. Brienne turning up at just the right moment was a bit of a groaner, though (not to mention her turning away just as Sana lights the effing candle. YOU HAD ONE JOB, BRIENNE!) I would have been happier if they had spent more of this episode in the north and not crammed in so much other stuff. Dany and Arya could easily have kept until next season.

Brienne is the heroine with the Midas Touch; everything she touches turns to mufflers.

That one birds-eye visual of the Bolton forces charging in to engulf Stannis's pitiful remaining forces was amazing. It was truly the picture that said 1000 words, most of them about how his inflexibility and inability to adapt or change course cost Stannis everything. And his face in the moments before he drew his sword showed he knew it as well. "daaaamn, that's a lot of horses... so, this is how it ends. (sigh.) ok, so be it."

I think war with Dorne is the next move. Those Dornish folks with their sexy sexiness and liberal attitudes towards sexy times would make natural antagonists for the Westoros Bapitist Church. Sand Snakes vs FrankenMountain? Hang on to your hats, folks; you'll need them to keep your brains from spilling out all over the damn place.

The Westeros Baptist Church :lol: I can't picture war with Dorne... for one thing the Lannisters are broke and short of allies, and the Iron Throne is broke too. That clueless fop Mace Tyrrell is busy just trying to get extensions on their repayment schedule, nevermind raising money for a new war. As well, I can't picture Cersei doing much else until she deals with this Sparrows situation. King's Landing isn't big enough for the both of them.

-k

Black Dog · June 17, 2015

I agree. Even though they've spent 5 seasons teaching us that nobody is too important to die. I think perhaps this is one reason they might have decided to ditch the "Lady Stoneheart" angle. If people start coming back from the dead on the regular, then Jon Snow's eventual resurrection seems predictable, hackneyed, and not particularly special. In season 3 they did include that guy that Thoros of Myr resurrected, which seems pointless for the most part but on the other hand does indicate that Red Priests/Priestesses do have this sort of power. They could go with Red Witch magic (she'll have to get the body before it's cremated, I would think?) but there's also this possibility regarding his wolf, as others are discussing.

They even went so far as to connect Thoros withe Melly Mel back in S3 IIRC.

the wolf angle doesn't make much sense to me though. So...he'd be a wolf? That's it?

Edited June 17, 2015 by Black Dog

Boges · June 17, 2015

They even went so far as to connect Thoros withe Melly Mel back in S3 IIRC.

the wolf angle doesn't make much sense to me though. So...he'd be a wolf? That's it?

They mention Thoros in the episode where Varys and Tyrion are in Volantis and a Red Priestess is there and stops her sermon and looks directly at Tyrion.

Gives some credence to the idea that they're attracted to Kings Blood. The mostly popular theory is that Dany, Jon and Tyrion are all related.

I don't think anyone really believes he'll stay dead, cuz with Stannis defeated, why do we care about the North anymore without Jon? No one is there to do anything about the White Walkers. Sansa and Reek are now on the run. Sansa isn't playing the "Game" anymore.

I think the Show Runners just wanted another Red Wedding like reaction. And know one will no for sure what happens unless the book comes out in the next 10 months or in 10 months when Season 6 starts.

Littlefinger's disclosed plan to Cersei was to take the army of the Vale to take Winterfell after the battle while the winner was licking their wounds. If that was the case, I don't imagine the Bolton's army is that weakened after Stannis' sad sack effort.

BTW going back to Varys and Tyrion. IMHO the best part of the finale was having them re-unite. I hope a good majority of the Mereen story arc in Season 6 is seeing them trying to rule that city with Grey Worm and Missandei.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Boges

Mighty AC · June 17, 2015

The wolf angle doesn't make much sense to me though. So...he'd be a wolf? That's it?

During an interview Kit Harrington said "I’ve been told I’m dead. I’m dead. I’m not coming back next season. So that’s all I can tell you, really."

So I suppose the Warg angle is possible. A Warg has to be controlling their puppet when their body is killed to live on after death. Like Orell the wildling who took control of the eagle as he was dying. It's possible that Jon isn't completely gone yet so Ghost could walk up and become possessed. Though, I am still hopeful that Kit isn't being honest with the press to setup a more suspenseful resurrection.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Mighty AC

-1=e^ipi · June 17, 2015

What are the chances that Marcella will become a zombie?

I think perhaps this is one reason they might have decided to ditch the "Lady Stoneheart" angle.

Couldn't they still introduce it next season?

Littlefinger's disclosed plan to Cersei was to take the army of the Vale to take Winterfell after the battle while the winner was licking their wounds. If that was the case, I don't imagine the Bolton's army is that weakened after Stannis' sad sack effort.

I doubt Littlefinger will follow through with that plan, at least not without the help of various Northern Noble houses that want the Starks back in power. He was probably just keeping his options open, plus he is busy with the faith militant right now.

Boges · June 17, 2015

Using Myrcella as LSH wouldn't even remotely have the same impact as making it Catelyn Stark.

kimmy · June 18, 2015

They even went so far as to connect Thoros withe Melly Mel back in S3 IIRC.

the wolf angle doesn't make much sense to me though. So...he'd be a wolf? That's it?

Yeah. He could team up with that Wildling guy Tormund Giantsbane, and they could travel around Westeros solving mysteries together!

"And I'd have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling freefolk!"

-k

{"like, zoinks, Snowie, it's a good thing there's no such thing as zombies, 'cause these White Walkers are giving me the creeps!"}

Bonam · June 18, 2015

I think there's probably a better than 2/3 chance that they'll leave him dead with no funny resurrection angle at all. He certainly wouldn't be the first GoT character that the fan base was emotionally invested in that got killed off.

Black Dog · June 18, 2015

I think there's probably a better than 2/3 chance that they'll leave him dead with no funny resurrection angle at all. He certainly wouldn't be the first GoT character that the fan base was emotionally invested in that got killed off.

OK: how does killing him advance the plot? Killing Ned started the war; killing Robb ended it. These deaths served a narrative purpose; Jon's death does nothing.

He'll be back.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Black Dog

Boges · June 18, 2015

OK: how does killing him advance the plot? Killing Ned started the war; killing Robb ended it. These deaths served a narrative purpose; Jon's death does nothing.

He'll be back.

They wouldn't have Melisandre there if he wasn't coming back. Why does anyone care about the Wall without Jon and Sam?

The only plot device that would make any sense would be that the White Walkers take the wall with a feckless defence from the tools that are left. Making the threat from the North even more ominous.

Black Dog · June 18, 2015

Getting away from the Jon Snow is he/isn't he stuff, one of the scenes from the finale that bugged me was the scene with Theon and Sansa and Myranda on the battlements. I was baffled when they showed her picking the lock and then dropping the corkscrew thing on the floor ("I'm heading out where I'll be surrounded by hostile people; guess I won't be needing this weapon!"), Then, when she is confronted, it's up to Theon/Reek to save the day, making Sansa once again a passive, helpless victim, her plight used as nothing more than a way to move the needle on another (male) character's development. For a show that went to great lengths last season and early in this one to try and make her more than a victim whose destiny was in the hands of others (even going so far as to have Littlefinger use those exact words to her!), they did absolutely nothing with it. Very disappointing.

That said, Myranda's header off the balcony made me LOL.

Boges · June 18, 2015

Getting away from the Jon Snow is he/isn't he stuff, one of the scenes from the finale that bugged me was the scene with Theon and Sansa and Myranda on the battlements. I was baffled when they showed her picking the lock and then dropping the corkscrew thing on the floor ("I'm heading out where I'll be surrounded by hostile people; guess I won't be needing this weapon!"), Then, when she is confronted, it's up to Theon/Reek to save the day, making Sansa once again a passive, helpless victim, her plight used as nothing more than a way to move the needle on another (male) character's development. For a show that went to great lengths last season and early in this one to try and make her more than a victim whose destiny was in the hands of others (even going so far as to have Littlefinger use those exact words to her!), they did absolutely nothing with it. Very disappointing.

That said, Myranda's header off the balcony made me LOL.

Sansa's storyline only went to further Ramsay is the show's biggest heel. Sure we knew he was evil, but now he's the most evil. It would have been cool to see her rule Winterfell but that would have meant that Stannis would have to have won the battle. Obviously that storyline was a dead end.

What else was her out? killing Ramsay? perhaps but it's not like that's going to suddenly make her a "player".

Sansa will likely meet up with Brienne (An female character that's actually strong) in the next season. That's my guess anyway, none of this is in the books.

I imagine Myranda's death is more or less what people falling from heights would actually look like. Pretty realistic.