You're not gonna see these videos on CNN.

[Jack Weber]

Oh my god, get over yourself! Not every thread needs to turn into a fifty-page dialogue. Who gives a damn if a thread doesn't yield a lot of replies or if I don't have a specific argument to make? I view these forums as discussion areas, but they can also be used to share information. What are you, some defender of MLW bandwidth who has decided that only threads started with an opinion on some controversial issue are worthy of existence? You're acting like such a pretentious little child.

I don't know the first thing about Indonesia, and I don't have much of an opinion about these events other than the fact that they seem to be connected to a broader phenomenon of religious violence associated with Islam in many parts of the world. There are also extreme examples of this happening in Nigeria.

There's also extreme examples of tribal violence in Nigeria...

There's also extreme evidence of governemnt rigged show trials and executions in Nigeria eg. Ken Saro Wiwa.

There's also extreme evidence that Nigeria is one of the most corrupt countries in the world...

What is your point,Bobby?

[Michael Hardner]

Oh my god, get over yourself! Not every thread needs to turn into a fifty-page dialogue. Who gives a damn if a thread doesn't yield a lot of replies or if I don't have a specific argument to make?

Hmmm...

Since you're asking:

All posts must contain some aspect of an argument or attempt to stimulate discussion.

MLW Rules and Guidelines

I view these forums as discussion areas, but they can also be used to share information. What are you, some defender of MLW bandwidth who has decided that only threads started with an opinion on some controversial issue are worthy of existence? You're acting like such a pretentious little child.

Not really. This is the best online forum I know of, mostly because the posters pay attention to the rules and try to make things about discussion and not insults and so forth. So, yes, I do defend MLW in a certain way but we all should. If you pick up your litter a neighbourhood will soon start to shine !

If you don't agree, then it might not be the place for you.

[Michael Hardner]

Did I say that? No. What I'm saying is that the USA and other countries are in an unfortunate position of having to do business with various states and groups that engage in behavior that is contrary to our values. Again, a robotic-thinker like yourself needs that to be spoonfed to him.

I bet you were just salivating in the hopes that I am some bigot that thinks that Saudi Arabians are somehow inherently inferior, just waiting to link me to a Wikipedia page about DNA.

No. Just checking. I don't appreciate being called a robot thinker, though. I like to think of it as logical thinking based on empirical arguments, etc.

[Bob]

No. Just checking. I don't appreciate being called a robot thinker, though. I like to think of it as logical thinking based on empirical arguments, etc.

I know that's how you like to think of it. There are limits to it, though, and they need to be combined with things such as intuition. That's why all concepts with any degree of subjectivity instantly short-circuit your mind - I've seen people like you before, it's not original and it isn't endearing. Everything needs to quantified and measured. Things such as pride, loyalty, nationalist, racism, liberty, oppression are all hard for you to fathom, since they can't be put onto a scale, photographed, smelled or put into your safety deposit box. Perhaps a political forum isn't the best place for you?

You're speaking to someone who's taken many science courses at the academic level, by the way. It was my minor in university.

[Michael Hardner]

I know that's how you like to think of it. There are limits to it, though, and they need to be combined with things such as intuition.

Yes, that's fair. Pure data arguments can also lack context, human context.

That's why all concepts with any degree of subjectivity instantly short-circuit your mind - I've seen people like you before, it's not original and it isn't endearing.

Not endearing is a compliment. I would like to challenge your arguments as much as I would like others to challenge mine. What doesn't endear us makes us stronger.

Everything needs to quantified and measured. Things such as pride, loyalty, nationalist, racism, liberty, oppression are all hard for you to fathom, since they can't be put onto a scale, photographed, smelled or put into your safety deposit box. Perhaps a political forum isn't the best place for you?

Let's see - pride is one of the 7 sins. Loyalty is something I feel to people I know personally. Nationalisn, racism, and oppression are nasty things that I abhor and liberty is a value that supports open discussion, so here we are.

Yes, a discussion board is pretty good place for me.

You're speaking to someone who's taken many science courses at the academic level, by the way. It was my minor in university.

Well done. I don't care, though. I will rarely bring up my credentials, if they're germane to the argument (for example, in some discussions we've had on statistics I have done that) but generally we only have our writings here as our authority, backed up by our facts.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's also continually astonishing to me that this is not widely known...it should be taught in public schools. It directly affects the US, UK, France and Australia (as co-conspirators in massive state terrorism and murder) and would be a major 20th century piece of history were we not bound by doctrinal orthodoxies about our love of human rights and democracy...a rather perverse joke, it would appear.

Hmmm...somebody left out Canada again. A perverse omission!

[Bob]

http://www.yale.edu/gsp/east_timor/

Thanks for the link. After perusing it for awhile, it still seems that these events would have happened with or without American "support". Yes, assuming the summary of "What The Documents Show" is accurate, America knew about and maintained some degree of contact with Indonesia, as well as what's described as "military ties" (arms sales?). So far, my intuition seems to be correct, that these events would have happened with or without what is being described as "American support" for Indonesia during this time.

I would think that people would place the blame on Indonesia and its people. But hey, that's a crazy idea, right?

[bush_cheney2004]

Thanks for the link. After perusing it for awhile, it still seems that these events would have happened with or without American "support". Yes, assuming the summary of "What The Documents Show" is accurate, America knew about and maintained some degree of contact with Indonesia, as well as what's described as "military ties" (arms sales?). So far, my intuition seems to be correct, that these events would have happened with or without what is being described as "American support" for Indonesia during this time.

Agreed....the notion of an American "green light" is a poor substitute for objective thinking. We had the same pap for the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq.

I would think that people would place the blame on Indonesia and its people. But hey, that's a crazy idea, right?

....or a pastor in Florida. LOL!

[DogOnPorch]

Timor seems to be a pet project of bloodyawful.

[bush_cheney2004]

Timor seems to be a pet project of bloodyawful.

Indeed....more important than other poor bastards around the world it would seem. As for Australia, it is blamed for crap going back to WW2 and the Japanese invasion.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/criticism-of-australias-actions-in-wwii-timor-not-so-clear-cut-20100420-sr5a.html

[Bob]

Agreed....the notion of an American "green light" is a poor substitute for objective thinking. We had the same pap for the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq.

....or a pastor in Florida. LOL!

You are literally reading my mind. I didn't mention it, but I came across the phrase "green light" from a couple of these online "projects" who claim to be committed to getting down to the bottom of America's involvement in these events. Of course, that "green light" is never really explained. I was gonna say, but I declined. You read my mind and did it yourself.

I was also going to bring up the Pastor in Florida, as it seemed like a much simpler example of people blaming a slightly connected party (in a way) to a crime in an attempt to shift blame from the truly responsible. I abstained, though, because they degree of relationship between America and Indonesia is greater than the relationship between Terry Jones and the religiously-motivated murderers in Afghanistan. Still, I see your point. Again, I was going to bring this up, but I didn't - and you made the point, anyways. I guess we can blame the USA because some websites use the phrase "green light", as if the USA had a button in front of it, with a green button (support war and mass murder) and a red button (stop war and mass murder).

It's weird when that happens, it's telepathy across the ocean.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Bob

[Bob]

Timor seems to be a pet project of bloodyawful.

Definitely. He always seems to want to shift the discussion towards that.

[DogOnPorch]

Indeed....more important than other poor bastards around the world it would seem. As for Australia, it is blamed for crap going back to WW2 and the Japanese invasion.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/criticism-of-australias-actions-in-wwii-timor-not-so-clear-cut-20100420-sr5a.html

The Aussies had their hands full in New Guinea. Plus, after Sunda Straight and Java Sea (battles), it was too dangerous to venture too far into Japanese controled areas without running into a squadron of heavy cruisers.

[bush_cheney2004]

..It's weird when that happens, it's telepathy across the ocean.

Well, to be honest, I just followed your obvious lead with respect to Pastor Jones....you had already made the important point. The notion of a "green light" in American foreign policy is a Cold War perspective that assumes omnipotent control and relationships always existed, when in fact it was more like herding cats.

Edited April 8, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

The Aussies had their hands full in New Guinea. Plus, after Sunda Straight and Java Sea (battles), it was too dangerous to venture too far into Japanese controled areas without running into a squadron of heavy cruisers.

Right...it would have meant glorious suicide or a very bad stint in a Japanese POW camp. Discretion is the better part of valour!

[Bob]

Well, to be honest, I just followed your obvious lead with respect to Pastor Jones....you had already made the important point. The notion of a "green light" in American foreign policy is a Cold War perspective that assumes omnipotent control and relationships always existed, when in fact it was more like herding cats.

Yeah, but I made that point in another thread. It still feels like you read my mind.

[DogOnPorch]

Right...it would have meant glorious suicide or a very bad stint in a Japanese POW camp. Discretion is the better part of valour!

When it came to cruisers, Japan ruled the day (and night) during the first half of the War in the Pacific. They were deadly...with elite crews, highly trained in torpedo combat.

The Aussies fought like devils in WW2...that Timor was lost isn't a surprise. The rest of the East Indies were under the Rising Sun...minus Port Moresby in NG.

[bush_cheney2004]

....The Aussies fought like devils in WW2...that Timor was lost isn't a surprise. The rest of the East Indies were under the Rising Sun...minus Port Moresby in NG.

..and that's where they had to draw the line or risk cutting off Australia. The US Navy still enjoys some Aussie afterglow because of the Battle of the Coral Sea.

[DogOnPorch]

..and that's where they had to draw the line or risk cutting off Australia. The US Navy still enjoys some Aussie afterglow because of the Battle of the Coral Sea.

Plus the heroic efforts of individual American ships that were stationed in the area like one of my favorite ol' 4 stackers, DD-211 Alden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Alden_(DD-211)

Edited April 8, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[eyeball]

Well, to be honest...it was more like herding cats.

Un-natural in other words, to the point of disgusting as often as not.

[bush_cheney2004]

Un-natural in other words, to the point of disgusting as often as not.

...but not impossible:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f347/ulyssesm/dead-cat.jpg

[bloodyminded]

Thanks for the link. After perusing it for awhile, it still seems that these events would have happened with or without American "support". Yes, assuming the summary of "What The Documents Show" is accurate, America knew about and maintained some degree of contact with Indonesia, as well as what's described as "military ties" (arms sales?). So far, my intuition seems to be correct, that these events would have happened with or without what is being described as "American support" for Indonesia during this time.

I would think that people would place the blame on Indonesia and its people. But hey, that's a crazy idea, right?

Of course suharto is to blame. But then, so are his cohorts. Another crazy idea, eh?

Before I debunk your post, however, I'd like to note well that you consider it a trivial matter for the Western democracies to aid and support state terrorism and mass murder...as long "the events would have happened" anyway.

But it's moot anyway, because you're mistaken.

The sheer degree of the slaughter--twenty-five years' worth--would not have been possible without countries arming the military--and all the while knowing what the Indonesians were doing. The West supplied the means for the killings...not as apolitical arms dealers, either, but as conscious contributers.

At least as important is the fact that the US--them alone--could have stopped the killings at any moment during that 25 years, simply by ordering Indonesia to back down, and ceasing the supply of arms. Because in fact, that's precisely what did happen, in 1999 (after a pretty bloody year of murder).

And it all could have been done without violence, as it eventually was.

[bloodyminded]

Agreed....the notion of an American "green light" is a poor substitute for objective thinking. We had the same pap for the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq.

Not the same. You didn't read any of the information, and your reticence is a crucial component of your "objective thinking" on a subject you don't know anything about. The declassified documents, availing us of Ford and Kissinger giving the explicit go-ahead, is available for your reading pleasure.

I don't know why you'd avoid objectivity here...if America does something--no matter what--you are here to proudly defend it.

Why not now?

[bloodyminded]

You are literally reading my mind. I didn't mention it, but I came across the phrase "green light" from a couple of these online "projects" who claim to be committed to getting down to the bottom of America's involvement in these events. Of course, that "green light" is never really explained.

Come on, Bob, I offered you the link. Try to extract yourself from your stuperous back-slapping with the forum's chief intellectual coward for just a moment.

The "green light" is explicit, in a face-to-face conversation between Ford, Kissinger, and Suharto.

Of course I expect Bush_cheney and Dogonporch to pretend it's not there and not bother reading it--they find Western-backed terrorism hilarious, proudly so.

I didn't quite see the wilful avoidance coming from your direction, however.

Here is the link to the declassified document itself. Not an interpretation; the document.

See for yourself. Scroll to page four (or read the whole thing, if you fear there might be some lost context).

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB62/doc4.pdf

Or, alternatively, you can just take the "mind-reader" Bush-Cheney--who has expressed equal parts ignorance and patriotic glee about terrorism that eclipses Hamas and Hizbollah combined--at face value, as a sincere and interested sceptic.

If you wish to travel that road.

Edited April 8, 2011 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

Definitely. He always seems to want to shift the discussion towards that.

Yes, there's no particular subject which seems to preoccupy you, at all.