You're not gonna see these videos on CNN.

[Bob]

I came across this subject when reading the blog of an Iranian self-described "secular democracy activist". Apparently there is some very disturbing violence being carried out by groups of Muslims against a minority group, which apparently is another Muslim group.

It's really sick. It also tells you how far behind countries like Indonesia are with respect to basic human rights. Be warned, I'm quite certain the second video shows a murdered man/corpse being attacked by these animals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3FvE9nq65g

[Bob]

There are many other related videos on YouTube. The "Allahu Akbhar" chants also reveal quite a bit about the motivations of these murderers. For those who don't know, there have been incidents in Israel and Judea/Samaria where similar religiously-connected lynchings. I'm sure I don't need to mention what types of people were the victims and what types of people were the murderers, right? When I came across these videos I was immediately reminded of the lynching in Ramallah in 2000, when two Jewish men accidentally drove into Ramallah and were murdered by a group of the city's residents once they were "discovered" (for those who don't know, it is extremely dangerous for Jewish persons, especially Israelis, to venture into many Arab areas in the West Bank) to the thunderous applause of the spectators.

[Michael Hardner]

As I mentioned on another thread. Videos are best suited for entertainment, even if it's infotainment there's still the "tainment" at the end.

We've actually been discussing religious violence on these pages of MLW for years now. It's a tricky subject, and even when discussed dispassionately, in context and with evidence one finds it difficult to separate the subjective from the objective.

Nevertheless, there have been some good discussions - but they aren't made any better by filmic evidence. We know that there are atrocities and that there is evil in the world. One of the most familiar tools of the propagandist is to show the brutality of his enemy in very specific and graphic detail. Thinking people know that these things exist and are able to discuss the issues with that knowledge.

Video is the most truthful medium - in that you can't deny that what is shown actually happened. ( Unless it's faked of course. ) But the good arguments that we engage in here are based on discussions that go back to the Ancient Greeks, long before YouTube. I'll get off my pulpit now.

[GostHacked]

I've not seen the clip yet, but this is Muslim on Muslim violence?

[Bob]

As I mentioned on another thread. Videos are best suited for entertainment, even if it's infotainment there's still the "tainment" at the end.

We've actually been discussing religious violence on these pages of MLW for years now. It's a tricky subject, and even when discussed dispassionately, in context and with evidence one finds it difficult to separate the subjective from the objective.

Nevertheless, there have been some good discussions - but they aren't made any better by filmic evidence. We know that there are atrocities and that there is evil in the world. One of the most familiar tools of the propagandist is to show the brutality of his enemy in very specific and graphic detail. Thinking people know that these things exist and are able to discuss the issues with that knowledge.

Video is the most truthful medium - in that you can't deny that what is shown actually happened. ( Unless it's faked of course. ) But the good arguments that we engage in here are based on discussions that go back to the Ancient Greeks, long before YouTube. I'll get off my pulpit now.

So now I'm a propagandist who is trying to show the brutality of the enemy. Gotcha. Apparently this issue has been thoroughly discussed on MLW, as well. I guess you knew about these events before I made this post, too?

Let's take our heads out of the sand for a moment. As you always do, you're running off on a completely irrelevant and incoherent tangent. This post is about something quite specific - that a specific Muslim minority known as the Ahmadiyya are being murdered, at least in this incident, but the a large group from the Muslim majority in Indonesia. You're trying to broaden this thread to the most absurd extreme - "religious violence" and "evil in the world". I'm not talking about the world, I'm talking about Indonesia. This kind of thing doesn't happen in Canada. It doesn't happen in the USA. It almost feels like you're preemptively trying to obfuscate the discussion for suspicious political reasons. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you? Are you afraid that the issue of fundamentalism in Islam will be brought up? Because I just brought it up, sorry. If you don't want to participate in the discussion, stay out of the thread. If you continue to follow me around and intentionally disrupt the dialogue (in this case, before the dialogue has even begun!) with your broad generalities and gibberish, however, I will call you out on it.

[Bob]

Here is a video, surprisingly from Al-Jazeera, which suggests that there is also anti-Christian discrimination in Indonesia. This shouldn't really be surprising to anyone, however, as I'm quite certain nobody ever viewed Indonesia as a country which genuinely practises and enforces basic human rights.

[Bob]

Here's a video of incitement to violence (pretty much sanctioning murder) against the Ahmadiyya minority. This is very reminiscent of things I've seen from Imams/Mullahs inciting against Jewish people in the context of the Israel/Arab conflict - we must all be killed, basically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N-7qeENdDI

[Michael Hardner]

So now I'm a propagandist who is trying to show the brutality of the enemy. Gotcha.

No, you inferred that yourself. The point is that video isn't a good medium for discussion, which is supported by the fact that film is the classic medium of propagandists.

Apparently this issue has been thoroughly discussed on MLW, as well. I guess you knew about these events before I made this post, too?

I can't say that I did, but I don't think that these events do much to generate discussion. Should they ? I can see them generating outrage, but this is a discussion board not an emoting board.

Let's take our heads out of the sand for a moment.

Speak for yourself...

As you always do, you're running off on a completely irrelevant and incoherent tangent. This post is about something quite specific - that a specific Muslim minority known as the Ahmadiyya are being murdered, at least in this incident, but the a large group from the Muslim majority in Indonesia.

Ok.

You're trying to broaden this thread to the most absurd extreme - "religious violence" and "evil in the world". I'm not talking about the world, I'm talking about Indonesia.

No you're not - you're showing video clips from Indonesia.

This kind of thing doesn't happen in Canada. It doesn't happen in the USA. It almost feels like you're preemptively trying to obfuscate the discussion for suspicious political reasons.

Oh no, not at all. I enjoy a good discussion - but if you read my post you'll see that my issue is with video, not the content of the videos.

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?

Lots of things.

Are you afraid that the issue of fundamentalism in Islam will be brought up?

No, I would love that to happen, because then we could have a discussion rather than a film festival.

Because I just brought it up, sorry. If you don't want to participate in the discussion, stay out of the thread.

If you continue to follow me around and intentionally disrupt the dialogue (in this case, before the dialogue has even begun!) with your broad generalities and gibberish, however, I will call you out on it.

See - it's your job to start the dialogue, not mine. You really did the bare minimum here by posting a video then introducing it with a few paragraphs. Then you followed it up with another post that mentioned violence in another part of the world.

Are you trying to say that some religion or other causes violence ?

[bloodyminded]

Here is a video, surprisingly from Al-Jazeera, which suggests that there is also anti-Christian discrimination in Indonesia. This shouldn't really be surprising to anyone, however, as I'm quite certain nobody ever viewed Indonesia as a country which genuinely practises and enforces basic human rights.

Are you kidding?

Indonesia was responsible for arguably the worst mass slaughter by percentage of populaiton in the postwar era, a long effort of invasion, oppression, murder, and torture of the East Timorese people. State terrorism on an astonishing scale.

Done with the permission, and the material, intentional aid, of several Western nations, primarily the United States (the leading cohort in terrorism and murder in this instance).

Edited April 7, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Michael Hardner]

Here - let me demonstrate as advocate for Lucifer:

A point:

"Christians are the actual cause of death in religious countries."

Evidence:

"That Florida pastor committed an act designed to outrage religious people and caused many deaths."

Poynter.org

Last fall, pastor Terry Jones was all over the news with his threats to burn the Quran on the anniversary of 9/11. Seven months later, he followed through, which you probably learned about after rioters in Afghanistan killed a number of United Nations workers and Afghans.

Jones oversaw the burning of a single Quran on March 20 in a thinly attended event at his small Gainesville, Fla., church.

Now you can provide a retort and challenge what I wrote. See ?

[Michael Hardner]

Are you kidding?

Indonesia was responsible for arguably the worst mass slaughter by percentage of populaiton in the postwar era, a long effort of invasion, oppression, murder, and torture of the East Timorese people. State terrorism on an astonishing scale.

Done with the permission, and the material, intentional aid, of several Western nations, primarily the United States (the leading cohort in terrorism and murder in this instance).

That's too much context all at once, I fear.

[Bob]

Here - let me demonstrate as advocate for Lucifer:

A point:

"Christians are the actual cause of death in religious countries."

Evidence:

"That Florida pastor committed an act designed to outrage religious people and caused many deaths."

Poynter.org

Now you can provide a retort and challenge what I wrote. See ?

You actually expect me to reply to such an idiotic supposition, even if it is sarcastic? Stop being so broad and get to the point. You have a very strange way of criticizing, and in this case indirectly criticizing, arguments that haven't been made and perspectives that haven't been advanced. Didn't you learn your lesson in the thread regarding the John Stossel videos? You have this itchy online trigger-finger (metaphorically), where all you do is attack strawman after strawman after strawman,

[Bob]

Are you kidding?

Indonesia was responsible for arguably the worst mass slaughter by percentage of populaiton in the postwar era, a long effort of invasion, oppression, murder, and torture of the East Timorese people. State terrorism on an astonishing scale.

Done with the permission, and the material, intentional aid, of several Western nations, primarily the United States (the leading cohort in terrorism and murder in this instance).

As usual, it's America's fault. I'm glad to see you're still consistently on message.

[bloodyminded]

As usual, it's America's fault. I'm glad to see you're still consistently on message.

Are you denying intentional American complicity in the Indonesian massacres of innocent people?

Because your reply is non-responsive to the actual points raised.

So...do you deny it, or not?

Other posters have been forced to concede the point once they get the information (shamelessly little-known, thanks to the "leftist media" [sic]). Sometimes, they even come out in support of terorism, since Jesu...I mean, Western democracies were involved.

How about you?

Edited April 7, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Bob]

Are you denying intentional American complicity in the Indonesian massacres of innocent people?

Because your reply is non-responsive to the actual points raised.

So...do you deny it, or not?

Other posters have been forced to concede the point once they get the information (shamelessly little-known, thanks to the "leftist media" [sic]). Sometimes, they even come out in support of terorism, since Jesu...I mean, Western democracies were involved.

How about you?

Why don't you tell us all about it? More importantly, how is it relevant to the current problems mentioned in the OP? I am completely unfamiliar with Indonesian history, I just thought that this story was another illustration of a few common trends we've discussed in this forum over the past little while.

[Michael Hardner]

You actually expect me to reply to such an idiotic supposition, even if it is sarcastic? Stop being so broad and get to the point. You have a very strange way of criticizing, and in this case indirectly criticizing, arguments that haven't been made and perspectives that haven't been advanced. Didn't you learn your lesson in the thread regarding the John Stossel videos? You have this itchy online trigger-finger (metaphorically), where all you do is attack strawman after strawman after strawman,

No - it was just an example.

The point is that there's a format for arguing here. Posting a video and saying "what do you think of that ?" doesn't generate good discussion IMO. You need to at minimum frame it with something that starts a discussion.

I'm not even arguing your points, here, it's just the format that is lacking.

I responded to the points in the Stossel video at 1 PM, BTW.

[Bob]

No - it was just an example.

The point is that there's a format for arguing here. Posting a video and saying "what do you think of that ?" doesn't generate good discussion IMO. You need to at minimum frame it with something that starts a discussion.

I'm not even arguing your points, here, it's just the format that is lacking.

I responded to the points in the Stossel video at 1 PM, BTW.

Ya I saw that post, and I didn't bother replying. You're obviously not creative enough to make the connections between the varying things he was talking about. Like a robot, you viewed them all as random anecdotes without any meaning - unable to make the connections to broader themes or perhaps to your own personal experiences or things you've learned over the course of your life. Somewhere along the line you must've picked up the idea that it's endearing to think robotically and view every single thing through the lens of "objectivity". Again, it's as if you just learned about the scientific method last week and now can't stop thinking about it. Like a little kid who just discovered a new TV-dinner and eats the same thing every night for the next eight months. I didn't really care about a discussion in that thread, anyways, I just thought some people would enjoy the videos as I did. Same for the Michael Ware videos.

[bloodyminded]

Why don't you tell us all about it? More importantly, how is it relevant to the current problems mentioned in the OP? I am completely unfamiliar with Indonesian history, I just thought that this story was another illustration of a few common trends we've discussed in this forum over the past little while.

It's very relevant, since you brought up the remark about human rights in Indonesia...as a Muslim issue (which it is, as well) but eliding the fact that the US and a few allies are culpable in worse terrorism than, say, Hamas has ever dreamed of. Far worse atrocities than are contained in the videos you posted...by a measure of hundreds of thousands, actually.

It's also continually astonishing to me that this is not widely known...it should be taught in public schools. It directly affects the US, UK, France and Australia (as co-conspirators in massive state terrorism and murder) and would be a major 20th century piece of history were we not bound by doctrinal orthodoxies about our love of human rights and democracy...a rather perverse joke, it would appear.

Kissinger and Ford gave the green light for the invasion in December '75, only requiring that Suharto wait till the President returned home to "avoid embarrassment"...apparently it doesn't look good for the empire to permit its violent dictator friend to start killing people wantonly, and then to help him to do it.

Then, for 25 years, they aided the slaughters, materially; they helped diplomatically, particularly under Moynihan (who boasted about rendering the UN "ineffectual" regarding East Timor) and Wolfowitz.

The UK and Australia were a nice help as well. What's a couple hundred thousand dead E. Timorese peasants, anyway? It's not like they're human beings.

At any rate, this is a good place to start, but the information is voluminous.

http://www.yale.edu/gsp/east_timor/

Edited April 7, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Michael Hardner]

Ya I saw that post, and I didn't bother replying. You're obviously not creative enough to make the connections between the varying things he was talking about. Like a robot, you viewed them all as random anecdotes without any meaning - unable to make the connections to broader themes or perhaps to your own personal experiences or things you've learned over the course of your life. Somewhere along the line you must've picked up the idea that it's endearing to think robotically and view every single thing through the lens of "objectivity".

Quite the opposite - I know that these incidents are just incidents. If the author intended to use these individual incidents of proof of anything, he should have said so instead of leaving that for people to infer them.

That's pretty weasel-like if indeed that was his goal. He should come out and say something if he wants to.

Again, it's as if you just learned about the scientific method last week and now can't stop thinking about it. Like a little kid who just discovered a new TV-dinner and eats the same thing every night for the next eight months. I didn't really care about a discussion in that thread, anyways, I just thought some people would enjoy the videos as I did. Same for the Michael Ware videos.

This isn't a video review board, though, it's a discussion board. Videos without context don't make for good discussion. If the author is making a point, and provides evidence then that's something to generate discussion, and if the poster also adds a comment that generates something then that's good too.

But these are just cable news clips. They mean nothing on their own, and they're weaker then weak arguments. I could show you a video of a whale mating, too - does that prove we need to save the doomed oceans ?

[guyser]

Ya I saw that post, and I didn't bother replying. You're obviously not creative enough to make the connections between the varying things he was talking about. Like a robot, you viewed them all as random anecdotes without any meaning - unable to make the connections to broader themes or perhaps to your own personal experiences or things you've learned over the course of your life.

In other words, when bob does get what he asked for , he dismisses it since it doesnt line up exactly like bob want, or at least though.

Somewhere along the line you must've picked up the idea that it's endearing to think robotically and view every single thing through the lens of "objectivity".

No , we like to make our assumtions up first, then search for shit that matches. I mean , how else would one do things? Objectivity....pfffft....cant have any of that you know.

I didn't really care about a discussion in that thread,

Oh so your a troll?

I just thought some people would enjoy the videos as I did. Same for the Michael Ware videos.

Say, do you have The Princess Bride? Its really good and Id like to watch it.

[Bob]

It's very relevant, since you brought up the remark about humna rights in Indonesia...as a Muslim issue (which it is?) but eliding the fact that the US and a few allies are culpable in worse terrorism than, say, Hamas has ever dreamed of.

It's also continually astonishing to me that this is not widely known...it should be taught in public schools. It directly affects the US, UK, France and Australia (as co-conspirators in massive state terrorism and murder) and would be a major 20th century piece of history were we not bound by doctrinal orhtodoxies about our love of human rights and democracy...a rather perverse joke, it would appear.

At any rate, this is a good palce to start, but the information is voluminous.

http://www.yale.edu/gsp/east_timor/

I have a feeling that you're the kind of person that thinks buying oil from Saudi Arabia makes the USA complicit in the oppression of people in that country. If these people weren't barbarians to begin with, we wouldn't have these problems. You seem to be unable to reconcile the reality that oftentimes out essential interests (or better put, our NEEDS) come in conflict with our principles with respect to foreign policy. This phenomenon, however, is a function of the nature of the people around the world that we unfortunately need to deal with.

[Michael Hardner]

If these people weren't barbarians to begin with, we wouldn't have these problems.

Saudis are barbarians 'to begin with' ? You mean at birth ?

[bloodyminded]

I have a feeling that you're the kind of person that thinks buying oil from Saudi Arabia makes the USA complicit in the oppression of people in that country. If these people weren't barbarians to begin with, we wouldn't have these problems. You seem to be unable to reconcile the reality that oftentimes out essential interests (or better put, our NEEDS) come in conflict with our principles with respect to foreign policy. This phenomenon, however, is a function of the nature of the people around the world that we unfortunately need to deal with.

I see you haven't begun to read it, which explains why you'd indulge in the conventional pieties.

I'm not talking about "looking the other way," re Rwanda.

I'm talking about intentional, material complicity in the murders.

[Bob]

Quite the opposite - I know that these incidents are just incidents. If the author intended to use these individual incidents of proof of anything, he should have said so instead of leaving that for people to infer them.

That's pretty weasel-like if indeed that was his goal. He should come out and say something if he wants to.

This isn't a video review board, though, it's a discussion board. Videos without context don't make for good discussion. If the author is making a point, and provides evidence then that's something to generate discussion, and if the poster also adds a comment that generates something then that's good too.

But these are just cable news clips. They mean nothing on their own, and they're weaker then weak arguments. I could show you a video of a whale mating, too - does that prove we need to save the doomed oceans ?

Oh my god, get over yourself! Not every thread needs to turn into a fifty-page dialogue. Who gives a damn if a thread doesn't yield a lot of replies or if I don't have a specific argument to make? I view these forums as discussion areas, but they can also be used to share information. What are you, some defender of MLW bandwidth who has decided that only threads started with an opinion on some controversial issue are worthy of existence? You're acting like such a pretentious little child.

I don't know the first thing about Indonesia, and I don't have much of an opinion about these events other than the fact that they seem to be connected to a broader phenomenon of religious violence associated with Islam in many parts of the world. There are also extreme examples of this happening in Nigeria.

[Bob]

Saudis are barbarians 'to begin with' ? You mean at birth ?

Did I say that? No. What I'm saying is that the USA and other countries are in an unfortunate position of having to do business with various states and groups that engage in behavior that is contrary to our values. Again, a robotic-thinker like yourself needs that to be spoonfed to him.

I bet you were just salivating in the hopes that I am some bigot that thinks that Saudi Arabians are somehow inherently inferior, just waiting to link me to a Wikipedia page about DNA.