BALANCED TRADE

[ROYME55]

I have for along time now been a strong believer in getting out of all free trade agreements. Instead we should be perusing balanced trade as an alternative. Balanced trade would not be subject to any tariff complaints as there would be non. The way it works is based on currency values,trade is then balanced on goods and service values. If an importer wants to bring a billion dollars worth of goods into Canada he must first secure a billion in sales to export. The same with outsourcing tech jobs, if you send the work to a foreign country you must find a product to export to balance the value of exported value. The net effect is if he can find the sales we create wealth and jobs in this country. If the product he wants to import has a demand we might just have to make it hear. Imagine that we could actually build up our own manufacturing again and create jobs here. The other benefit is we might get tech support that we can understand what they are saying.

[Moonbox]

Your idea defeats the purpose of world trade altogether. The idea is to create economies of scale and have different areas building expertise and volume in different products. One country might not need anything from another, yet that other country may need something from it.

Where the problem lies in unfair 'advantages' developing nations have in terms of labour costs and in the west's exploiting of these nations. If you want to solve the problem, you have ensure that there is a relatively level playing field. Either you insist on fair employment standards for foreign labour or you impose tarrifs. That's really the only way North Americans with (barely) high school educations will get their monkey jobs back pressing buttons and lifting stuff.

[William Ashley]

I think your idea is stupid for the following reason. Businesses make products - they do not necisarily import products they may only export products.

I beleive in Equal value for instance they must meet specific balancing tests.

Are the goods essential goods? YES OR NO - if yes essential goods must meet essential demand from domestic sources before they can be put on the market for a lower value than the local market. If they are not essential goods there should be no restrictions on pricing. (This is an essential goods ABSOLUTE anti dumping protection)

Do they create environmental damages YES OR NO. If YES the product whether produced domesticlaly or imported should be given a surcharge on the cost of environmental rehabilitation and remediation. This would apply to imported products or domestic ones.

Are they hazardous goods YES OR NO. If yes they must be imported via Canadian Merchant marine or Federal land transport licensed carriers.

Are they medical goods YES OR NO? If yes the 15% medical goods and services fee would be applied to all domstic and imported medical goods - (this applied to the poverty health care NHIP and any excess funds and Public Owned Medical Patent Research and Generic Drugs rights fund)

Are they NATURAL RESOURCES? YES OR NO - IF YES, equivolent royalties to those royalties paid by domestic extraction companies must be paid. (Ideally Only goods that are not supplied in the strategic reserve can be imported, and cannot be offered for less than the reserve rate (although this likely would not occur) Parties that import raw goods cannot put goods into the reserve - ONLY federal corporations may import raw materials stocked in the federal reserve wihtout being charged import levy for waste processing - any raw materials not entered VIA the reserve and sold at the lowest rate are also charged disposal fees.

bear in mind PERSONAL and CORPORATE income taxes would be removed - while royalty fees would increase. The reason why the royalty is important because the royalty is a market capitalization modifier, and the payment of the royalty is a license to offer the goods for legal sale on the domestic market. This would include things such as stump fees, extraction fees etc.. While the provinces would claim the provincial royalties, the federal government would claim any import royalties at the same rate as the maximum provincial rate at point of import. As well as the federal levy that would replace federal corporate income taxes on resource based companies on a "production quantity basis"

that same fee would apply on quantity of import or per unit basis - not intended as a tarrif/levy.. on imports, but a gauge that is in effect on both domestic and import product effecting supply and market capitalization - thus value of product based on domestic supply and domestic demand aggrates that are disturbed by imports and incrased domestic supply.

--------------------

It is EQUAL in the cost to both domestic and foreing producers--- if foreign producers have a problem it is because their home country is charging them either corporate income taxes or extraction fees. It has nothing to do with Canada, since via WTO guidelines - it allow countries to set fair and equal costs on both domestic and foreign companies - as long as it is equal treatment.

Edited March 28, 2011 by William Ashley

[Wild Bill]

I have for along time now been a strong believer in getting out of all free trade agreements. Instead we should be perusing balanced trade as an alternative. Balanced trade would not be subject to any tariff complaints as there would be non. The way it works is based on currency values,trade is then balanced on goods and service values. If an importer wants to bring a billion dollars worth of goods into Canada he must first secure a billion in sales to export. The same with outsourcing tech jobs, if you send the work to a foreign country you must find a product to export to balance the value of exported value. The net effect is if he can find the sales we create wealth and jobs in this country. If the product he wants to import has a demand we might just have to make it hear. Imagine that we could actually build up our own manufacturing again and create jobs here. The other benefit is we might get tech support that we can understand what they are saying.

Your idea pre-supposes that the countries we want to trade with will all say (in the words of an old Loony Toons cartoon character) "Gee! That sounds logical!"

We don't have an exclusive lock on a lot of what we have to export. Basically, since Ontario's manufacturing took a big hit we have become a resource-based economy. That's the definition of a third world country in some circles! Every third world country, having nothing else to trade but its resources, frantically ends up in price wars in order to compete on the world market.

So most countries would rapidly find more advantageous partners to trade with.

In other words, your idea forgets that we have no way to force anybody to trade with them and if we hit them with the type of restrictions that you suggest they would likely just politely tell us to get stuffed and move along to a country more amenable to swinging a deal.

[Jack Weber]

Your idea pre-supposes that the countries we want to trade with will all say (in the words of an old Loony Toons cartoon character) "Gee! That sounds logical!"

We don't have an exclusive lock on a lot of what we have to export. Basically, since Ontario's manufacturing took a big hit we have become a resource-based economy. That's the definition of a third world country in some circles! Every third world country, having nothing else to trade but its resources, frantically ends up in price wars in order to compete on the world market.

So most countries would rapidly find more advantageous partners to trade with.

In other words, your idea forgets that we have no way to force anybody to trade with them and if we hit them with the type of restrictions that you suggest they would likely just politely tell us to get stuffed and move along to a country more amenable to swinging a deal.

Welcome to the wondeful world of neo-liberal economics that are espoused by the economic conservative types out there...

It's called a race to the bottom to increase profits....

Gotta love the "freedom"...

[August1991]

If an importer wants to bring a billion dollars worth of goods into Canada he must first secure a billion in sales to export.

Neat idea! We could apply the same logic in other spheres of life. Before you accept a job, you would have to show where you're going to spend the money you earn. But then, before you do your shopping at Walmart, you would have to secure employment at... Walmart?

I suppose if everyone lived on autonomous communes in the mountains and grew their own vegetables, then they could meet your idea.

It's called a race to the bottom to increase profits....

Jack, can you run this by me again? Race to the bottom to increase profits?

That's like saying it was a race to the bottom as auction prices increased...

Edited March 28, 2011 by August1991

[Jack Weber]

Jack, can you run this by me again? Race to the bottom to increase profits?

That's like saying it was a race to the bottom as auction prices increased...

Absolutely...

Drive costs down (see wages and benny plans) by

1.Slowly chip away at labour legislation by neutering the labour movement in high wage sectors...

(see things like RTW legislation...'Cause it's all about the "individual freedom")

2.Threaten labour force with loss of jobs if they don't take less money and lower benny's....

3.Up and move potential employment to low wage sectors

4.Replace high wage manufacturing jobs with service sector jobs and temp service jobs...

The vicious cycle of free market wealth redistribution goes round and round until that wealth is sent back upwards into the hands of the few...

Welcome to the new take on European Mercantilism under the guise of "Individual Freedom"...

Thanks Friedrich...Thanks Uncle Milty...

[blueblood]

This is why management, economics, and commerce classes should be mandatory for high school graduation.

I smell a lecture about the sun, moon, and light coming from august...

I'm going to enjoy this

Edited March 28, 2011 by blueblood

[Jack Weber]

This is why management, economics, and commerce classes should be mandatory for high school graduation.

I smell a lecture about the sun, moon, and light coming from august...

So says the Minister for Kevin O'Leary World...

[Moonbox]

Welcome to the new take on European Mercantilism under the guise of "Individual Freedom"...

Actually European Mercantilism operated much like the OP stated. The English started with the idea that they shouldn't buy more from someone than they sell to them. It was the reason they build their navy to challenge the Spanish Armada.

Today's economy couldn't be any different, aside from the fact that the the poor and middle classes are still applauding while the wealthy continuously screw them.

Instead of making this election about corporate tax cuts, why not make it about opposing the telecom oligopoly and rebuilding our manufacturing industries. That's far too involved for the average voter I suppose....

Edited March 28, 2011 by Moonbox

[Wild Bill]

Absolutely...

Drive costs down (see wages and benny plans) by

1.Slowly chip away at labour legislation by neutering the labour movement in high wage sectors...

(see things like RTW legislation...'Cause it's all about the "individual freedom")

2.Threaten labour force with loss of jobs if they don't take less money and lower benny's....

3.Up and move potential employment to low wage sectors

4.Replace high wage manufacturing jobs with service sector jobs and temp service jobs...

The vicious cycle of free market wealth redistribution goes round and round until that wealth is sent back upwards into the hands of the few...

Welcome to the new take on European Mercantilism under the guise of "Individual Freedom"...

Thanks Friedrich...Thanks Uncle Milty...

Much of what you say is true, Jack. Except as always we still have a great big "Yabbut!"

What you don't mention is that most times businesses have no choice! Nowadays they have to compete against cheap imports. They can't lower the cost of their materials so that leaves just wages. They start to chip away and chip away. If there's a union the union will fight them, of course. If the union loses the workers eventually end up with poor wages. If the union wins, the company ends up with continually less sales volume, leaving less money to pay those wages.

Either way, eventually it just makes more sense to re-locate the company to Elbonia or wherever.

There are a few exceptions with specialized products but that's generally the way it works today. Stelco/U S Steel has to compete with cheaper Chinese steel. If they can't get the iron ore any cheaper or get their labour costs down then they lose, period and end of story.

I've posted before about how I think that one way to give our domestic manufacturers a break would be to levy "green" tariffs. It's not just stupid but almost criminal to let Chinese steel come into Canada when they don't pay diddley-squat in "green", anti-pollution measures. Our steel plants are forced to spend literally millions to "save the planet" and those extra costs HAVE to end up included in the price of our steel! We should calculate how much those extra costs are and apply them as a tariff on any steel imported from countries that don't have similar anti-pollution methods.

Any farmer will tell you that we've done the same sort of bonehead things with agriculture, for years! A politician will ban the only insecticide or anti-fungal agent that works worth a damn on a specific crop and the farmers will immediately begin to suffer losses in their crop yield. Meanwhile, dozens of third world countries not only use that stuff all the time but their crop workers crap right in the fields while they're working! Canada lets their stuff come into our grocery stores. Believe it or not, the official policy is "Inspection at Source". This means that WE don't inspect the food or the growing of it, we just accept the exporting country's word for it!

No wonder we find poison in our pet food and lead in the paint of children's toys from China!

If a chemical is unsafe for our farmers then it makes no sense to allow it on foreign food imports. Yet our government has never given a damn! Why? Because the photo-op of banning the stuff WINS votes while changing the import regulations DOESN'T! Most "eco-warriors" are too stupid to see past their nose and follow the entire process. Most citizens don't pay any attention at all. So no politician lifts a finger to cover that part of the problem.

I sympathize with your rants about business, Jack. It's just that I've been there most of my career and I've seen that it's not like most businesses have chosen to screw things up. They are just reacting to forces over which they have no control, trying to keep their businesses alive.

If you want to blame someone, blame the politicians! I watched the NorTel story right from the beginning of the 90's. It started with Chretien cozying up to China. They wanted to make a deal to build a national telephone system, since they didn't have much of one and what they had was pretty primitive. Ol' Jean and his boys were selling this as a golden opportunity! China was going to need millions of phones and the associated equipment! NorTel built this stuff so a deal involving NorTel would send their production into warp speed! Zillions more jobs and zillions more trade dollars!

That was the official story. The Chinese were far smarter than Jean and his cronies. They insisted that NorTel build factories in China to supply Chinese phones, while teaching them how to make them and providing zillions of CHINESE jobs!

Once those factories came on stream the next step was obvious. Close all those plants in Kanata and elsewhere in Canada and have China supply US with phones and phone equipment! Kiss all those Canadian jobs goodbye, forever!

This didn't have to happen. NorTel had the expertise and it would have been simpler for them to take orders and supply China from their existing infrastructure. It worked out the way it did because politicians were involved that had no idea of the effect of their deals! CHRETIEN personally killed that industry, with all those jobs! For the photo-op of cosying up to China, a country that has thousands of industrial spies within Canada! We don't even get the benefit of any friendship!

I'm just saying you might want to think things all the way through, Jack. And put the blame for the way our economy is going precisely where it belongs.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Jack Weber]

Much of what you say is true, Jack. Except as always we still have a great big "Yabbut!"

What you don't mention is that most times businesses have no choice! Nowadays they have to compete against cheap imports. They can't lower the cost of their materials so that leaves just wages. They start to chip away and chip away. If there's a union the union will fight them, of course. If the union loses the workers eventually end up with poor wages. If the union wins, the company ends up with continually less sales volume, leaving less money to pay those wages.

Either way, eventually it just makes more sense to re-locate the company to Elbonia or wherever.

There are a few exceptions with specialized products but that's generally the way it works today. Stelco/U S Steel has to compete with cheaper Chinese steel. If they can't get the iron ore any cheaper or get their labour costs down then they lose, period and end of story.

I've posted before about how I think that one way to give our domestic manufacturers a break would be to levy "green" tariffs. It's not just stupid but almost criminal to let Chinese steel come into Canada when they don't pay diddley-squat in "green", anti-pollution measures. Our steel plants are forced to spend literally millions to "save the planet" and those extra costs HAVE to end up included in the price of our steel! We should calculate how much those extra costs are and apply them as a tariff on any steel imported from countries that don't have similar anti-pollution methods.

Any farmer will tell you that we've done the same sort of bonehead things will agriculture, for years! A politician will ban the only insecticide or anti-fungal agent that works worth a damn on a specific crop and the farmers will immediately begin to suffer losses in their crop yield. Meanwhile, dozens of third world countries not only use that stuff all the time but their crop workers crap right in the fields while they're working! Canada lets their stuff come into our grocery stores all the time.

If a chemical is unsafe for our farmers then it makes no sense to allow it on foreign food imports. Yet our government has never given a damn! Why? Because the photo-op of banning the stuff WINS votes while changing the import regulations DOESN'T! Most "eco-warriors" are too stupid to see past their nose and follow the entire process. Most citizens don't pay any attention at all. So no politician lifts a finger to cover that part of the problem.

I sympathize with your rants about business, Jack. It's just that I've been there most of my career and I've seen that it's not like most businesses have chosen to screw things up. They are just reacting to forces over which they have no control, trying to keep their businesses alive.

If you want to blame someone, blame the politicians! I watched the NorTel story right from the beginning of the 90's. It started with Chretien cozying up to China. They wanted to make a deal to build a national telephone system, since they didn't have much of one and what they had was pretty primitive. Ol' Jean and his boys were selling this as a golden opportunity! China was going to need millions of phones and the associated equipment! NorTel built this stuff so a deal involving NorTel would send their production into warp speed! Zillions more jobs and zillions more trade dollars!

That was the official story. The Chinese were far smarter than Jean and his cronies. They insisted that NorTel build factories in China to supply Chinese phones, while teaching them how to make them and providing zillions of CHINESE jobs!

Once those factories came on stream the next step was obvious. Close all those plants in Kanata and elsewhere in Canada and have China supply US with phones and phone equipment! Kiss all those Canadian jobs goodbye, forever!

This didn't have to happen. NorTel had the expertise and it would have been simpler for them to take orders and supply China from their existing infrastructure. It worked out the way it did because politicians were involved that had no idea of the effect of their deals! CHRETIEN personally killed that industry, with all those jobs! For the photo-op of cosying up to China, a country that has thousands of industrial spies within Canada! We don't even get the benefit of any friendship!

I'm just saying you might want to think things all the way through, Jack. And put the blame for the way our economy is going precisely where it belongs.

You are absolutely right...

It's not just the Darwinian nature of business to ratechet up profits for shareholder by controlling and driving down costs...It's that they are allowed to play one jursdiction off against another to get the best "deal" for them...

Part of the problem lies in the corruption of supposedly publicly elected politicians being bought and paid ofr by corporate types who are only interested in themselves,and NOT the public that elected them...

And...

The labour movement itself!!!

The labour movement,over the last 20 decades has done two things that are simply wrong..

1.In the mid-'80's,many labour leaders embraced the erroneous idea that they had to become "parteners" with business...This is a ridiculous notion because the end game of both are diametrically opposed to each other....

2.As the job losses have increased,the labour movement became insular and defensive.It's understandable,but it has hurt them.If we want to see our standard of living either remain the same here,or rise again,the standard of living in low wage jurisdictions has to rise also...

How do we do that??

Well,the labour movement that claims to be international (but that really means "the West") has to become truly international and fight the globalist corporate economic ideology on the globalist turf..

It hasto go to China,Bangladesh,Latin America, etc and fight the fight we had to fight 60 to 70 years ago.Now,that's going to take time and alot of blood is going to be spilled.This is mainly because those that have that level of power will do anything and everything to keep it...

But,it's the fight that has to happen...

Otherwise,we had better get used to the idea of servcie sector jobs being the backbone of the economy,and whatever industrial jobs that will be left over having wages and benny plans driven down by free market principles...

[blueblood]

So says the Minister for Kevin O'Leary World...

China, india, brazil, indonesia, chile buy into uncle kevin's style of economic policy and are much richer because of it.

Fareed zakaria says it best "the usa is not slowing down, the rest of the world is catching up!"

[Jack Weber]

China, india, brazil, indonesia, chile buy into uncle kevin's style of economic policy and are much richer because of it.

Fareed zakaria says it best "the usa is not slowing down, the rest of the world is catching up!"

Yes...

Because we are being forced to live on less because the people you advocate for,independently wealthy vulture...er...venture capitalists,like Kevin O'Leary, want shareholder value and want the ability to move their capital to low wage jurisdictions...

That might great for him,or you...It's not going to be good for most of us...

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Anarchy has a time and a place. Right now that is the middle east, but wait your turn because it will come. Patience little politicians, there is a movement afoot.

[Jack Weber]

Anarchy has a time and a place. Right now that is the middle east, but wait your turn because it will come. Patience little politicians, there is a movement afoot.

Contrary to what some free market types might think,I'm not a Marxist...

I don't believe in state controlled economies or totalitarian ideologies or anything like that...

But I also think the current global model of economics is not sustainable and is doomed to failure...

The question is when???

Edited March 28, 2011 by Jack Weber

[blueblood]

Yes...

Because we are being forced to live on less because the people you advocate for,independently wealthy vulture...er...venture capitalists,like Kevin O'Leary, want shareholder value and want the ability to move their capital to low wage jurisdictions...

That might great for him,or you...It's not going to be good for most of us...

It was good for india, china, brazil, chile, and indonesia. They have a growing middle class. It was also good for sask, alberta, nfld, bc, manitoba. If central canada is too ignorant to deal with emerging markets and refusing to innovate/compete they deserve what they get.

You guys priced yourselves out of jobs deal with it.

[Jack Weber]

It was good for india, china, brazil, chile, and indonesia. They have a growing middle class. It was also good for sask, alberta, nfld, bc, manitoba. If central canada is too ignorant to deal with emerging markets and refusing to innovate/compete they deserve what they get.

You guys priced yourselves out of jobs deal with it.

Spectacular...

In essence what you're saying is...

"Lower your standard of living to compete with the Chinese!"...

Nothing like throwing large swaths of a population under the bus,right???

Is'nt that what Leo Gerrard was saying when he whipped your money grubbing boy last year??

You,like O'Leary, want us all to live like they do in 3rd world countries to grow your stock portfolio's.

Gotta love the "freedom"...

Gotta drive that wealth back towards the top where it belongs...Not in the hands of those undeserving lower classes,right?

Gotta right the wrongs of the Keynesian Golden Age,right???

Oh,I forgot...You folks are all about raising the standard of living in those low wage jurisdictions...

Vulture Capitalists are the new humanitarians...

[blueblood]

Spectacular...

In essence what you're saying is...

"Lower your standard of living to compete with the Chinese!"...

Nothing like throwing large swaths of a population under the bus,right???

Is'nt that what Leo Gerrard was saying when he whipped your money grubbing boy last year??

You,like O'Leary, want us all to live like they do in 3rd world countries to grow your stock portfolio's.

Gotta love the "freedom"...

Gotta drive that wealth back towards the top where it belongs...Not in the hands of those undeserving lower classes,right?

Gotta right the wrongs of the Keynesian Golden Age,right???

Oh,I forgot...You folks are all about raising the standard of living in those low wage jurisdictions...

Vulture Capitalists are the new humanitarians...

Except those "third world" countries have 6-8% gdp growth and a rapidly improving quality of life. More and more chinese are car owners. For someone who wants improved conditions for workers, I find it funny that you want the third world impoverished so that north american workers can live high on the hog.

If kevin making leo gerrard cry is whipping him in an argument then I guess he whipped him.

Ontario workers have two choices they can take a pay cut and keep their jobs or have no job and no income. Businesses are for making money, not for wiping a workers ass.

Albertan workers can compete, why can't ontario workers?

Do yourself a favor go to a bookstore and buy as much books on management, commerce, and economics as you can. You are too economically illiterate to reason with.

Workers are a dime a dozen, north america is finding that out the hard way.

[Scotty]

Except those "third world" countries have 6-8% gdp growth and a rapidly improving quality of life. More and more chinese are car owners.

China has a rapidly expanding middle class, but the majority of Chinese people still live in abject poverty much the way their distant ancestors did. They also use slave labour. There is no way we can compete with them in terms of worker salaries without reducing our lifestyle to the point of a third world state. And if that's what you're proposing I wonder just what you consider to be the advantages to Canada? Do you think a faster GDP growth makes up for making $1 hr?

Albertan workers can compete, why can't ontario workers?

Who says Albertan workers compete? People working in the Alberta oil fields, even unskilled workers, are earning very handsome salaries. I'm willing to bet Chinese workers could do the job at a quarter the cost or less. What you have going for you is that you don't need to worry about the oil fields being shipped to China to be worked, and the government won't let Chinese workers come in and put all the Albertan workers onto the unemployment line.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Scotty

[blueblood]

China has a rapidly expanding middle class, but the majority of Chinese people still live in abject poverty much the way their distant ancestors did. They also use slave labour. There is no way we can compete with them in terms of worker salaries without reducing our lifestyle to the point of a third world state. And if that's what you're proposing I wonder just what you consider to be the advantages to Canada? Do you think a faster GDP growth makes up for making $1 hr?

Who says Albertan workers compete? People working in the Alberta oil fields, even unskilled workers, are earning very handsome salaries. I'm willing to bet Chinese workers could do the job at a quarter the cost or less. What you have going for you is that you don't need to worry about the oil fields being shipped to China to be worked, and the government won't let Chinese workers come in and put all the Albertan workers onto the unemployment line.

Canada doesn't have to reduce its level to a third world state. The cost of freight to and from china allows for some improved wages. However workers can't be paid at these levels and expect gdp growth of 4-5%. That and canada has a resource sector to compete with manufacturing.

The govt does let immigrant workers into the patch all the time and quite often they do work for less. They need all the low cost workers they can get. Once the worker pool fills up, wages will fall out on the patch as well. Alberta has to compete with other jurisdictions for oil production, hence its competitive royalty rates. What alberta does is produce things people want and at a reasonable price. The car and manufacturing companies of ontario and usa did not.

the rest of the world is getting richer. China is much richer than before. Once china's cost of labor gets too high and its population consumes more finished goods, the manufacturing jobs either return to the usa or go to the next low cost jurisdiction.

[guyser]

Do yourself a favor go to a bookstore and buy as much books on management, commerce, and economics as you can. You are too economically illiterate to reason with.

Workers are a dime a dozen, north america is finding that out the hard way.

Am I correct in that you are a farmer ?

If I am correct (and apologies if I am wrong) i just want to ask, how are those farm subsidies coming along that we have paid out for eons to farmers?

[blueblood]

Am I correct in that you are a farmer ?

If I am correct (and apologies if I am wrong) i just want to ask, how are those farm subsidies coming along that we have paid out for eons to farmers?

That depends on what kind of a farmer you are. In the farming community there is a big debate in the farm media concerning left/right issues. If you are a farmer and are doing well, your not going to qualify. Given that all industries receive subsidies in one form or another, which I don't necessarily agree with. Personally I think the subsidies are a waste of tax money unless there is a healthy return to the govt, but the farm lobby which is comprised of a lot of leftist farmers demands a lot of govt intervention.

It has been far more beneficial to me to incorporate, drive truck from time to time in the winter, dust crops, and do custom work to pad my income than to wait around the mailbox looking for a govt check. Those checks don't offset anything and piss off the city people.

Those subsidies have been slashed and are going down. It could be worse, we could be europeans. Unless your wanting to talk about govt farm insurance. Or is it ontario chicken, egg, dairy farmers and that gong show.

[Shady]

You guys priced yourselves out of jobs deal with it.

That's precisely right. In some industries, usually union dominated industries, workers priced themselves out of jobs, and out of competitiveness. They were used to having to only really compete with North American and European workers. Workers who themselves were also unionized. Now they have to compete worldwide. With more companies offering the same goods and services. Now their artificially high salaries, but even more so benefits are like achors around the necks of the businesses they work for. Unfortunately, many unions refuse to acknowledge economic reality. They like to pretend it's still the 1950s and 1960s. Where most of the world's goods and services were produced by essentially 6 or 7 Western countries.

[ROYME55]

Your idea defeats the purpose of world trade altogether. The idea is to create economies of scale and have different areas building expertise and volume in different products. One country might not need anything from another, yet that other country may need something from it.

Where the problem lies in unfair 'advantages' developing nations have in terms of labour costs and in the west's exploiting of these nations. If you want to solve the problem, you have ensure that there is a relatively level playing field. Either you insist on fair employment standards for foreign labour or you impose tarrifs. That's really the only way North Americans with (barely) high school educations will get their monkey jobs back pressing buttons and lifting stuff.

After reading some of your comments I see that you have missed the point of my proposal. I guess I needed to explain every detail or I should have expected the point would be missed. The proposal to not limit trade in anyway it was to balance out trade. What I was trying to get across was to get importers and exporters working together. If you force a balance the between imports and exports everyone including the third world benefits. I wasn't implying that goods from China had to be balanced by buying from us. I was viewing it as total world imports and exports. To make it a little clearer the total exports for a given month would free up credit any importer could use to import. Unused credits are carried over until used.