White Pride

[Michael Hardner]

OK...then you are invoking and projecting the American experience for Canada.

Incorrect. I'm invoking and projecting it for the world. Do you doubt that that is true ?

Do you think that queer rights, environmental movement, and the politics of liberation would be the same without the US, or more specifically San Francisco ?

I'm not sure if it applies across the board. So called "Black Pride" pre-dates the Civil Rights Movement by many decades, going back at least to the days of Jack Johnson defeating Canadian heavyweight champion Tommy Burns. This caused "White Shame" to such a degree that the lasting term "Great White Hope" came into popular usage thereafter.

It didn't cause anything like a re-invisioning of how the races fit into society, though. That was more akin to the feeling I get when a Canadian wins some American award. BP and liberation ideology was part of the freaky sixties, man.... what a long strange trip it has been...

[bush_cheney2004]

Incorrect. I'm invoking and projecting it for the world. Do you doubt that that is true ?

Yes....it would be very arrogant to do so...even for an American.

Do you think that queer rights, environmental movement, and the politics of liberation would be the same without the US, or more specifically San Francisco ?

They wouldn't have to be the same to still exist, and other "movements" happened independent of the American experience.

It didn't cause anything like a re-invisioning of how the races fit into society, though. That was more akin to the feeling I get when a Canadian wins some American award. BP and liberation ideology was part of the freaky sixties, man.... what a long strange trip it has been...

Maybe in your experience...not mine. A lot happened before the "freaky sixties"....man. Just ask Jesse Owens.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes....it would be very arrogant to do so...even for an American.

As an American, I respectively submit that you don't appreciate the scope of your country's culture on the world stage. When I lived in France 30 years ago American cultural dominance was even then a frequent topic of discussion.

They wouldn't have to be the same to still exist, and other "movements" happened independent of the American experience.

Again, social change piggybacks on culture, and American culture is exported worldwide from African kids watching Rambo, to Iranian teenagers listening to Madonna.

Maybe in your experience...not mine. A lot happened before the "freaky sixties"....man. Just ask Jesse Owens.

Whatever Jackie Robinson, Jesse Owens, Joe Louis, Louis Armstrong and such figures contributed, it was still a foundation for real political change. Of course it was necessary in the US, due to the history of that culture, but it still projected everywhere.

As such, this is what the poster above was referring to IMO, whether he knows it or not.

[bush_cheney2004]

As an American, I respectively submit that you don't appreciate the scope of your country's culture on the world stage. When I lived in France 30 years ago American cultural dominance was even then a frequent topic of discussion.

And as an American, I submit that you don't fully appreciate the origins and history of that culture.

Again, social change piggybacks on culture, and American culture is exported worldwide from African kids watching Rambo, to Iranian teenagers listening to Madonna.

No, social change is part of cultural change, which may or may not include exports from America.

Whatever Jackie Robinson, Jesse Owens, Joe Louis, Louis Armstrong and such figures contributed, it was still a foundation for real political change. Of course it was necessary in the US, due to the history of that culture, but it still projected everywhere.

So are you saying that "White Pride" in Canada also originates this way?

As such, this is what the poster above was referring to IMO, whether he knows it or not.

I don't know what the original intent may have been, but I do know that the Canadian experience is different, and includes language as a dividing attribute. Watching American television and film won't change that.

[Jack Weber]

White pride? The idea seems rather silly.

I'm supposed to be proud simply for having been born white? That's about as good a reason as having been born with 2 arms! I had no control over my birth race. How can I take pride in something that has nothing to do with my personal efforts or accomplishments?

No, the idea is simply a reaction to the socially divisive idea of Black Pride or Green Pride. There's a good argument involving being a victim, entitlements and official multicultural government money that says it's all just using racist excuses to grab money and opportunities from what's perceived in some circles as an unfairly advantaged group.

Don't ask me to be proud of being white but I AM proud of my British/European heritage and culture! It wasn't Tibetan prayer wheels that put a man on the moon or dreamcatchers that led to penicillin. Not that there's no value in those other cultural achievements but I put my primary value on those inventions that keep us warm and well fed while enjoying a long healthy life in a society that has a low infant mortality rate. I was awed and delighted watching both my daughters being born. I would not have cared for the experience if there was only medieval technology available in the birthing room.

To me, ANY pride taken for something you had no control over is simply undeserved!

Green Pride??

I did'nt know there was a Martian minority??By calling it "Martian" am I being exclusionary??

You're victinhood point reminds me of something...

I remember watching Channel 11 a few years ago and they wre reporting on a Friday the 13th weekend out at Port Dover...

So they are doing the usual sticking a mike in the face of the patrons of the event..Then they come up to this skizzy looking biker,who goes off on this political polemnic on how motorcycle "clubs" are discriminated against and the members are....

You guessed it....

VISIBLE MINORITIES!!!!

'Cause The Banditos,HA's,and,The Mongols are just a bunch of fun lovin' guys who've never done anything illegal.....

Edited March 24, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Michael Hardner]

And as an American, I submit that you don't fully appreciate the origins and history of that culture.

I accept your submission.

I don't understand the noisemaker, and you don't understand the noise.

No, social change is part of cultural change, which may or may not include exports from America.

As per your wiggle room - it may.

So are you saying that "White Pride" in Canada also originates this way?

I'm not at all sure (or interested, really) in where these things come from. Something tells me Germany may have something to do with it though.

I don't know what the original intent may have been, but I do know that the Canadian experience is different, and includes language as a dividing attribute. Watching American television and film won't change that.

We will put our own context on things, and of course they do arise simultaneously across the globe, but let me limp back to Wikipedia to say what they say about the example in play here:

The slogan has been used in the United States by African Americans to celebrate heritage and personal pride. The black pride movement is closely linked with the developments of the American civil rights movement, during which figures such as Martin Luther King, Jr., A. Philip Randolph, Malcom X and Stokely Carmichael spoke out against the conditions of the United States' segregated society, and lobbied for better treatment for people of all races.

How about THAT ? MLK and Malcolm X seem to have a major role in this cultural phenomenon.

Wiki

[Wild Bill]

But... aren't you proud over your heritage as you said above ? Did you control that ? I suppose I can control my heritage by merely selecting whatever ancestor I would like to celebrate...

Yes, I did control that. I CHOSE to adhere to my heritage! I could conceivably have joined some other culture, assuming they would let me in. Certainly, even then I could have abandoned my own heritage. Once I was old enough, I made a conscious choice to belong to my culture. I made a similar choice as regards to my religious views. I was born into the Anglican Church but I chose to sever that tie, to become an independent, devout agostic!

That's the beauty of putting culture over race. Race is really an irrelevant concept. An Inuit can chose to emigrate to Scotland and adopt that culture. You can raise a Somali with a Japanese family and you will have a culturally Japanese young person.

If anything, skin colour differences will eventually be bred out or diminished. We are genetically programmed to find the possible sexual partner in our group who is different to be more attractive. This is just Nature's way of mixing our genes. Any animal breeder will tell you that mixed breeds are usually stronger and healthier.

I'm probably talking a few thousand years but I'm confident it will happen. I'm curious as to what the bigots of that time will use instead of race to discriminate against people.

[bush_cheney2004]

I accept your submission.

I don't understand the noisemaker, and you don't understand the noise.

Yes...I live in Whoville...and you are the Grinch!

I'm not at all sure (or interested, really) in where these things come from. Something tells me Germany may have something to do with it though.

...or Britain.

How about THAT ? MLK and Malcolm X seem to have a major role in this cultural phenomenon.

Wiki

In the narrow late 50's and 60's context no doubt, but the notion of "Black Pride" and being a "credit to the race" predates this by several generations. So antiquated is the idea, that having served its purpose, "Black Culture" in America now rejects the idea of a monolithic experience with pride defined in dominant (white) cultural norms. This causes the underlying anxiety displayed by some "visible majority" types, as they try to cope with other "cultures".

Superficially, I don't know why we would expect "Whites" to act any differently when faced with such cultural change(s)....hence "White Pride", even as a backlash.

Edited March 24, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

Yes, I did control that. I CHOSE to adhere to my heritage! I could conceivably have joined some other culture, assuming they would let me in. Certainly, even then I could have abandoned my own heritage.

Ok, so explain this again, plesae ?

"To me, ANY pride taken for something you had no control over is simply undeserved!"

You opt in to taking pride in any attribute of yourself. Whether you choose to for race or culture is irrelevant - you have no control over either. I think you're wiggling here.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes...I live in Whoville...and you are the Grinch!

You have the scale reversed.

I am a tiny Who and you are a giant elephant.

In the narrow late 50's and 60's context no doubt, but the notion of "Black Pride" and being a "credit to the race" predates this by several generations. So antiquated is the idea, that having served its purpose, "Black Culture" in America now rejects the idea of a monolithic experience with pride defined in dominant (white) cultural norms. This causes the underlying anxiety displayed by some "visible majority" types, as they try to cope with other "cultures".

Agreed. That is why the term is capitalized to signify that it was a movement, or cultural attribute of its time.

Superficially, I don't know why we would expect "Whites" to act any differently when faced with such cultural change(s)....hence "White Pride", even as a backlash.

This is a different kind of movement. The difference between Black Pride is that it wasn't ever needed in our time, and it unfortunately won't fade into cultural history as Black Pride did, apparently, based on your use of 'antiquated'.

[bush_cheney2004]

...This is a different kind of movement. The difference between Black Pride is that it wasn't ever needed in our time, and it unfortunately won't fade into cultural history as Black Pride did, apparently, based on your use of 'antiquated'.

Assuming you first meant "White Pride", it wasn't needed by definition as the dominant culture. It is/was the cultural norm. This is reflected in Canada with the term "visible minority" as an example.

Dave Chappelle, while not original on the subject, has parodied this circumstance to great comedic success.

[Michael Hardner]

Assuming you first meant "White Pride", it wasn't needed by definition as the dominant culture. It is/was the cultural norm. This is reflected in Canada with the term "visible minority" as an example.

Oops. Yes, you're right.

Dave Chappelle, while not original on the subject, has parodied this circumstance to great comedic success.

I think of his famous 'racial draft' where all races appropriate the cross-racial icons of the 90s and 2000s. ( Tiger, Eminem, and WuTang Clan who are "reclaimed" by the Chinese with their draft pick. ) The great thing about him is he put all of his greatest work out quickly, then stepped out without enduring a period of slow decline. And, yes, to a degree he put a nail in the coffin of 20th century racial contexts in comedy.

[Wild Bill]

Ok, so explain this again, plesae ?

"To me, ANY pride taken for something you had no control over is simply undeserved!"

You opt in to taking pride in any attribute of yourself. Whether you choose to for race or culture is irrelevant - you have no control over either. I think you're wiggling here.

Not at all! I made a conscious choice to embrace my heritage and to make most of its values my own! This means that I also consciously try to let my heritage guide by actions through life.

It's how I run my life that I take pride in!

[wyly]

However, is some guy - even though be was a former Canadian Nazi and White Supremacist - having a party on his property really controversial at all anymore?

if it were a muslim fundamentalist having a private party for like minded radicals would you say that?

[wyly]

White pride? The idea seems rather silly.

I'm supposed to be proud simply for having been born white? That's about as good a reason as having been born with 2 arms! I had no control over my birth race. How can I take pride in something that has nothing to do with my personal efforts or accomplishments?

No, the idea is simply a reaction to the socially divisive idea of Black Pride or Green Pride. There's a good argument involving being a victim, entitlements and official multicultural government money that says it's all just using racist excuses to grab money and opportunities from what's perceived in some circles as an unfairly advantaged group.

Don't ask me to be proud of being white but I AM proud of my British/European heritage and culture! It wasn't Tibetan prayer wheels that put a man on the moon or dreamcatchers that led to penicillin. Not that there's no value in those other cultural achievements but I put my primary value on those inventions that keep us warm and well fed while enjoying a long healthy life in a society that has a low infant mortality rate. I was awed and delighted watching both my daughters being born. I would not have cared for the experience if there was only medieval technology available in the birthing room.

To me, ANY pride taken for something you had no control over is simply undeserved!

I agree with a lot of that...I have zero pride in being white it's absolutely irrelevant...I have some cultural pride but it's all quite frivolous really, but still fun...

[wyly]

I suppose I can control my heritage by merely selecting whatever ancestor I would like to celebrate...

ya we all do that...we ignore the nobody's in our family tree and glorify the colourful or important, who wants to brag about the long line of farmers and shopkeepers in our background we all want to link up to the pirate scoundrel...

[WIP]

Interesting. What about places where whites no longer constitute a majority of the population? In many Canadian cities, whites are now a minority, and in some they are no longer even the largest minority. Consider, for example, Richmond BC:

You conveniently overlooked the fact that I wasn't talking just about demographics; but what is even more important -- who controls the money -- commerce and industry in the country.

http://www.richmond.ca/__shared/assets/2006_Ethnicity20987.pdf

By far the most numerous group are the Chinese. If having the right to engage in racial pride activities is a matter of being a minority, should whites in such areas then start partaking in such activities? Or consider California, where within a few years the largest population group will be Hispanics instead of whites.

I don't have the numbers for my neighbourhood, but it's a safe bet that there are more non-whites than whites where I live. That might be a problem for white nationalists, but the fact that people living in cities have daily contact with many people of other races is a key reason why city-dwellers are more cosmopolitan in their thinking than rural and suburbanites.

Personally, I reject the notion that a group's right to have pride and celebrate their common heritage is based on their numerical prevalence in the population. Nor should it have anything to do with being better off financially or owning a bigger share of the national wealth than their % of the population.

But that's only because libertarian crapola tries to pretend that we are all individuals, and there is no such thing as group advantages and disadvantages. A group that has been historically marginalized...and may still be today, has a legitimate right to work together for group interests. Now, when it comes to a group which has never functioned as a group, or never needed to in the past, what are the legitimate aims of celebrating this new found white pride? Except as a more respectable veneer for white supremacist groups.

Or would you deny Jews the right to celebrate their common culture and heritage? Either it is fine for groups to celebrate their race/ethnicity/culture, as in black pride, or it is not. Anything else is a double standard.

Now the question is: would you deny Jews the right to celebrate their common culture and heritage? Since this would for some reason be "unCanadian" of them.

[WIP]

Oh, I agree with all this, including the equivalency matter (which is taken up in more subtle ways by less obvious racists).

But these chowderheads have been at it for some time now.

They're going to get nowhere until they change their image and their rhetoric.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if this is already underway among some of these groups.

I hope we don't end up with a situation like the U.S., where the election of a half black president has allowed rightwingers to play the white race card in a dangerous way.

[Moonlight Graham]

White pride? The idea seems rather silly.

I'm supposed to be proud simply for having been born white? That's about as good a reason as having been born with 2 arms! I had no control over my birth race. How can I take pride in something that has nothing to do with my personal efforts or accomplishments?

To me, ANY pride taken for something you had no control over is simply undeserved!

So pride in one's country (assuming you were born there) is off the table then? zing!

[Oleg Bach]

I have another take on white pride. There is an all night convenience store on one of my corners...a helpless white drunkard was severely beaten by one of the staff ..an old man insulted one of the asian workers in the store one night....a racial slurr from what I understand....a friend of mine a former RCMP officer wanted me to tag along and sort of investigate the incident...what I found out by standing there and listening...was that the Asian guy who seemed to be highly trained in marshall arts - knocked down the old WHITE man...and proceeded to administer hard and highly skilled kicks to the poor old guys ribs and face...The old guy was an ass hole I suppose - but to be on the floor and prone - and helpless....and to be beaten...was a travesty and an insult to old white Canadians..

The former cop had to inform the owner that in Canada - you can not do that cos' you might get in trouble" .....because my corner is a mixture of upwardly mobile people and white trash...I assume that the asians who have only been exposed to our lowest of low...believed they could exercise some white hate and beat a guy senseless with impunity.

[bush_cheney2004]

I hope we don't end up with a situation like the U.S., where the election of a half black president has allowed rightwingers to play the white race card in a dangerous way.

Oh no! That means they also elected a "half white" president too...this can be very dangerous considering all the dangerous "white" presidents in US history. LOL!

[Oleg Bach]

Oh no! That means they also elected a "half white" president too...this can be very dangerous considering all the dangerous "white" presidents in US history. LOL!

All of your presidents and their committee of handlers were ALL dangerous - now you have run the race in full...and now that stupid crimminal empire called America slowly desolves with the help of Obama - hope you are happy.

[bush_cheney2004]

All of your presidents and their committee of handlers were ALL dangerous - now you have run the race in full...and now that stupid crimminal empire called America slowly desolves with the help of Obama - hope you are happy.

I am very happy...Duke lost!

[Michael Hardner]

I am very happy...Duke lost!

David Duke ? Old news.

[Oleg Bach]

David Duke ? Old news.

BC is starting to age and fade just like his great empire...that he will still be proud of once it is a garbage heap...all the wealth and security on a personal and national American level rests in the comfort of a hand gun or the nuke - other than that they have no wealth left...Kind of like an old poverty stricken Mexican bandit in a movie...that is dirty - smelly - teeth rotting out of his scull - but he still feels good about himself because he has a rifle and a belt of amo draped across his rumantic shoulder....times have changed - and you have a president and a bunch of white fat handlers that are the NWO...and don't give a damn if the whole place turns to shit - as long as they have their private estate...with their private security teams....Kind of JUST like Khadafi...not much different other than there are more Omars in the states than in Libya.