Jack Weber Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Meanwhile...in Syria...the bodies pile-up. Ba'Athist's (Fascists) killing those who have the temerity to oppose them?? LIES!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonsa Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Because the son does nothing without the permission of the father. ...and it is not in its borders,,,it is in the military occupied zone where the laws and punishments are different. This notion that the son does nothing without permission is a cultural generalization and certainly nowhere near a universal given. Bulldozing the family home of a 22 year old "terrorist" or resistance fighter - take your pick - is collective punishment. No getting around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 This notion that the son does nothing without permission is a cultural generalization and certainly nowhere near a universal given. So what do you think....amongst the families of terrorists....99% true...95% true 90% true? Bulldozing the family home of a 22 year old "terrorist" or resistance fighter - take your pick - is collective punishment. No getting around it. Hmmmm.....maybe bombing the palestinian transit system at rush hour would be more culturally sensitive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Now please confirm that you agree that Israel has the right to self defence which includes invading Gaza or any other nation if the need warrants, and I will forgive your blatant dishonesty. Pro justice? Just not pro nationhood for jews its seems.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonsa Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 So what do you think....amongst the families of terrorists....99% true...95% true 90% true? According to The Center for the Ethical Treatment of Terrorists it is 63.5% true. Hmmmm.....maybe bombing the palestinian transit system at rush hour would be more culturally sensitive? How is that relevant to the fact that Israel engaged in a policy of collective punishment? I believe they no longer bulldoze a terrorist family home. The homes they bulldoze now are illegally built, lacking building permits. A tad drastic, but not unprecedented even in north america. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Bulldozing the family home of a 22 year old "terrorist" or resistance fighter - take your pick - is collective punishment. No getting around it. What is Israel to do? Clearly, bus bombers and those who sponsor them (link) have no interest in negotiatons; they want Israel and Israelis dead. Punishment must be collective since the perpetrators themselves are not the masterminds. The teaching of hatred was collective. Unfortunately so must be the punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 What is Israel to do? Clearly, bus bombers and those who sponsor them (link) have no interest in negotiatons; they want Israel and Israelis dead. Punishment must be collective since the perpetrators themselves are not the masterminds. The teaching of hatred was collective. Unfortunately so must be the punishment. I don't kow..I realize there might not be a choice,however,I tend to agree Benjamin Netanyahu. Last week on CNN he felt that there seems to be a schism in Palestinian society where,on one hand,half the populous wnats to make a deal with Israel.On the other hand,the Hamas folks bully and intimidate the other hand into silence and submission.. Sadly,it's the Islamofascist Hamas that is running the show in Gaza... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Last week on CNN he (Netanyahu) felt that there seems to be a schism in Palestinian society where,on one hand,half the populous wnats to make a deal with Israel.On the other hand,the Hamas folks bully and intimidate the other hand into silence and submission..Sadly,it's the Islamofascist Hamas that is running the show in Gaza... If there are peaceloving Palestinians they must grab the mike and run the show. Or go down the hatch with the rest of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 If there are peaceloving Palestinians they must grab the mike and run the show. Or go down the hatch with the rest of them. The problem is that the peace loving Palestinians are the proverbial Floyd Patterson to Hamas' Sonny Liston.. If ya' get boxing the analogy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonsa Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 What is Israel to do? Clearly, bus bombers and those who sponsor them (link) have no interest in negotiatons; they want Israel and Israelis dead. Punishment must be collective since the perpetrators themselves are not the masterminds. The teaching of hatred was collective. Unfortunately so must be the punishment. The palestinians involved in the resistance to the occupation are using terror, because there is no other method of warfare available to them. History has proven that in this conflict the tactic is counter productive and ALWAYS initiates a disproportionate response from the Israelis. This has been Israel's primary response doctrine and its hasn't been all that effective either. I agree that some of these terrorist/resistance fighters (depending on perspective) are only interested in violence and destruction of Israel and not negotiations. I also think that after decades of negotiations going nowhere or making progress only to be screwed up by some idiotic action from either side, there is a whole bunch of bitter, disallusioned, unemployed palestinian youth who have collected martyr cards and and been taught throughtout their school lives that the Jews were evil occupiers of palestine (including occupying that part of palestine that the world recognizes as Israel). It is so simple to pass a moral judgement on these deluded bastards. Hell, they are so ignorant that some cowardly Islamist scumbag can convince them that if they just blow themselves up and take a few evil jews with them they'll get directly to heaven and have 72 virgins lickin' their asses. I don't excuse their activities, but at least I can understand their motivations. I have to say I find your rationale that punishment must be collective to be particularly odious and dispicable. I can see the same argument used by the SS when dealing with maquis terrorists, and dutch terrorists and polish terrorists ... or is that resistance fighters, only instead of bulldozing their houses, they lined up their families and friends and shot them. I believe the going rate was 10 "partisans" for each soldier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 The palestinians involved in the resistance to the occupation are using terror, because there is no other method of warfare available to them. That is not true. There is one method that they have not tried which has been the norm of warfare throughout history. Accepting defeat. Thye rolled the dice in 48 and lost. Now they should do what Japan, Germany, Turkey, France, Britain, Spain, Italy and every other nation that has lost a conflict. Settle and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonsa Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 That is not true. There is one method that they have not tried which has been the norm of warfare throughout history. Accepting defeat. Thye rolled the dice in 48 and lost. Now they should do what Japan, Germany, Turkey, France, Britain, Spain, Italy and every other nation that has lost a conflict. Settle and move on. Now what would "accepting defeat" look like? Where exactly is the "nation" of palestine? Silly me, Ithought that the formation of the nation of palestine was one of the causes of the conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Now what would "accepting defeat" look like? It would look like Germany... It would look like Italy... Have they prospered since they lost, or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Silly me, Ithought that the formation of the nation of palestine was one of the causes of the conflict. No....they had a nation given to them same as Israel but they went double or nothing...hence they had 19 years of occupation by Jordan and Egypt....and during that time they did nothing to establish sovereignty over the regions they occupied. Instead they traded prosperity for poverty in the hope that the Arab league would eventually sweep the jews away. That hope is gone and they still haven't accepted the hope of prosperity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonsa Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 It would look like Germany... It would look like Italy... Have they prospered since they lost, or not? Spurious analogy. Germany and Italy - nations of long standing existance unconditionally surrendering after all out war. The allies weren't interested in annexing German or Italian land as part of their own country. Do you really think that the palestinians could unconditionally surrender to Israel and not get totally and royally screwed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 The allies weren't interested in annexing German or Italian land as part of their own country. Yet they did it anyway..complete with mass forced population expulsions Come again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Do you really think that the palestinians could unconditionally surrender to Israel and not get totally and royally screwed? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) Meanwhile...in Jerusalem...KABOOM! http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/03/23/gaza-palestinians-israel.html For those who didn't know, yesterday, a bus depot in Jerusalem was bombed. There is no possible strategic gain to the perpetrators. This kind of activity does nothing to make life better for anyone. This kind of activity does not advance negotiations. One wonders why Israel is under pressure to respond with both hands tied behind their back in this matter. This is an act of war except it violates every canon of the Geneva Convention. The "fighters" are out of uniform. The target is primarily civilians. There are no military objectives. The only purpose served is to maim and kill people with no connection to the struggle. See article excerpted below. There were 20 seconds of silence, then screams began (link, excerpts below) By TOVAH LAZAROFF 03/24/2011 03:12 Victims of Jerusalem terror attack recount their experiences as Mayor Nir Barkat says "awareness can reduce the number of wounded." He lay in the emergency room on Wednesday evening, wrapped in a cloth blanket that was stained by bright red drops of blood from his wounded leg. But that did stop the 14-year old from smiling as he described the events of the day prior to the Jerusalem explosion. After long hours of study he had passed a stiff yeshiva entrance exam. At the fateful moment, he stood across from Binyanei Ha’uma on his way home, relieved that all the hard work was behind him. Then a large blast pushed him to the ground. ******************************* David Somech of Jerusalem had escaped without any physical trauma. He had also been standing at the bus stop and had not noticed anything out of the ordinary, when suddenly the bomb exploded. “There was 20 seconds of silence before the screaming began, and chaos. I started to help evacuate people and then the medics suggested that I should head to the hospital to make sure that I was all right,” Somech said. ************** Upstairs in another part of the hospital, Jerusalem resident Ruth Breitkopf sat next to her husband as she waited to be treated for shock. She said that everything happened very quickly. “I was on the bus, and just as it came to the stop, there was an explosion. Passengers fell onto the floor, but I ran out the door of the bus toward the entry way to the city,” Breitkopf said, before she was called away to meet with a doctor. Separately, (different article, link), Hamas representatives in the Gaza Strip hailed the attack as a “natural response to Israeli crimes against Palestinians.” Edited March 24, 2011 by jbg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Spurious analogy. Germany and Italy - nations of long standing existance unconditionally surrendering after all out war. The allies weren't interested in annexing German or Italian land as part of their own country. Not true. Germany is now missing East Prussia and most of Pomerania to Poland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) Not true. Germany is now missing East Prussia and most of Pomerania to Poland. And Silesia...And most of West Prussia.... The city my Great Grandfather came from,and the city my Dad's cousin was marched through at gunpoint,is now part of Poland!!! Edited March 24, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 And Silesia...And most of West Prussia.... The city my Great Grandfather came from,and the city my Dad's cousin was marched through at gunpoint,is now part of Poland!!! Agreed...parts of Germany were annexed post WW2. Try to find Danzig on a map...or Koenigsberg... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 ...to add....Germany isn't getting any of it back anytime soon. They lost WW2...just like the Arab's lost their wars against Israel...oddly enough started by a Nazi...just like WW2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Agreed...parts of Germany were annexed post WW2. Try to find Danzig on a map...or Koenigsberg... You can... Except they are called Gdansk...And Kalliningrad... And they were forcibly gentrified... And you can still find the city my Great Grandfather came from,and my Dad's cousin was marched through at gunpoint...It was called Stettin... It is now called Sczetcewen (Or something like that with far too many consonants and not enough vowels)... Thanks Herr Schickelgruber...Thanks alot Uncle Joe!! Idiots!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Agreed...parts of Germany were annexed post WW2. Try to find Danzig on a map...or Koenigsberg... Border revisions and population transfers Main articles: Iron Curtain, Expulsion of Germans after World War II, Oder-Neisse line, and Occupation of the Baltic states As a result of the new borders drawn by the victorious nations, large populations suddenly found themselves in hostile territory. The main beneficiary of these revisions was the Soviet Union, which expanded its borders at the expense of Germany, Finland, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania and Japan. The Soviet Union also acquired the three independent states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, which had declared their neutrality before the outbreak of World War II. The Baltic states were occupied and annexed early in the war in agreement with the Nazis via the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, then re-conquered in 1944. The Soviet Union also attempted to establish a separate government in that portion of Iran it had controlled during the war. A minor temporary beneficiary was France, which in 1947 annexed the German state of Saar as a nominally independent protectorate under French economic control. Poland was compensated for its losses to the Soviet Union by most of Germany east. In total, Germany lost roughly a quarter of its territory. Numerous Germans were expelled, mostly from the ceded German territories and from the Sudetenland. Many died, and historians debate to this day the death rate. Several hundreds of thousands of Poles, and Japanese were also expelled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_World_War_II In 1946, Victor Emmanuel III's son, Umberto II, was forced to abdicate. Italy became a republic after a referendum held on 2 June 1946, a day celebrated since as Republic Day. This was also the first time that Italian women were entitled to vote.[49] The Republican Constitution was approved and came into force on 1 January 1948. Under the Paris Peace Treaties of 1947, the eastern border area was lost to Yugoslavia, and, later, the free territory of Trieste was divided between the two states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy#Italian_Republic_.281946.E2.80.93present.29 Then there's Japan.... Speaking of losing territory and moving on with life...there's this whole whack of land just below US...England moved on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonsa Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 No....they had a nation given to them same as Israel but they went double or nothing...hence they had 19 years of occupation by Jordan and Egypt....and during that time they did nothing to establish sovereignty over the regions they occupied. Instead they traded prosperity for poverty in the hope that the Arab league would eventually sweep the jews away. That hope is gone and they still haven't accepted the hope of prosperity. No, they didn't have a nation given to them and neither did the jews. That partition plan was bogus bullshit and completely unworkable and everyone knew it. The Jews were very very shrewd in first accepting the plan, because they knew sure as shootin' the arabs were gonna reject it, which they did. Hence, the jews declared independence the day before the plan was to go into effect. I do believe that both Egypt and Jordan OCCUPIED Gaza and the WB. The Jordanians going so far as to annex the WB (although recognized by only two countries) and the proferred citizenship rejected by most of the inhabitants. The Egyptians were basically military occupiers just like the Israelis. I agree that the palestinians from the get go have missed opportunity after opportunity to move forward. And even when they seem to make some progress their leadership has failed them - repeatedly failed them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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