Power & Money

[August1991]

IMHO, there is a big difference between power and money. And the difference is apparent in families.

Power is the ability to lead, provide direction. Money is a claim on a resource.

[Jack Weber]

Wrong!!!

Money is simply a mode of exchange...

However,the vast accumulation of that mode of exchange acquires power in society...

Of course,it all depends on how one uses,or abuses,that power is the issue...

Another huge societal issue is how concentrated that power is.Whever it has become too concentrated at the top,historically speaking,things have gone very badly for the few that have it...And even worse things come out of those bad things...

Edited March 9, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Michael Hardner]

Money can be traded for power, and vice versa.

But there is an exchange rate that is punitive.

[GostHacked]

Money can be traded for power, and vice versa.

But there is an exchange rate that is punitive.

Money can't be traded to knowledge. And knowledge is the ultimate power.

[Michael Hardner]

Money can't be traded to knowledge. And knowledge is the ultimate power.

Money can buy a university degree, and a dead-end job at the end of 4 years. Where are we then ?

[GostHacked]

Money can buy a university degree, and a dead-end job at the end of 4 years. Where are we then ?

That is not the knowledge I am referring to. Knowledge is the understanding the bigger picture. It is understanding what our world is like and where it is going. Knowledge is understanding history as to not repeat it. Knowledge is being aware that our governments are crooks.

Knowledge is something you seek out yourself, and I don't think it can't be taught in schools.

[M.Dancer]

IMHO, there is a big difference between power and money. And the difference is apparent in families.

Power is the ability to lead, provide direction. Money is a claim on a resource.

Hannah Arendt certainly believed so. The European Jews had money...but no power.

[Topaz]

Coming into money, like a lottery, you have the power to get rid of all your money problems but then you suddenly are dealing with NEW money problems and it all depends on the person and how they deal with stress. Money and power doesn't necessarily bring you happiness either.

[scouterjim]

IMHO, there is a big difference between power and money. And the difference is apparent in families.

Power is the ability to lead, provide direction. Money is a claim on a resource.

Don't tell the Republicans that. They will have fits.

[Moonlight Graham]

I'd define power, in social terms, as the ability to make and/or influence other people to do as you wish.

Money is money. We buy stuff with it. But it is a great source of power, since money buys power. Money can make and/or influence other people to do as you wish.

But there are other sources of power other than money of course.

[August1991]

I'd define power, in social terms, as the ability to make and/or influence other people to do as you wish.

I'd agree with that definition. And in a family, the person with power is the person who can turn the conversation or opinion to her/his will. And that person sometimes holds the purse strings, but not always.

----

Money can buy a university degree, and a dead-end job at the end of 4 years. Where are we then ?

Hannah Arendt certainly believed so. The European Jews had money...but no power.

These two posts, combined with the fact that women now form a majority of university students, make me think more about my OP.

I have heard people (including Jews) say that the Golden Rule is: "He who has the gold, makes the rules." But is that true?

It seems to me that "power" comes from a reputation for making good choices. We trust or defer to someone who makes good choices. If you make good choices, then you may accumulate money. But it is wrong to assume that someone with money has made good choices.

----

I happen to think that families are very smart about this distinction. There are family members with money, and there are family members with power. Sometimes the person with money also has power. But not always.

Edited March 11, 2011 by August1991

[Pliny]

Money and power both enable a person to have things their way but both alone don't guarantee it.

Power implies position and ability to enforce one's will moreso than money which simply offers a person choices and a means to get his way.

I think I will buy an ice cream cone.

I think I will have that kid's ice cream cone.

It's something to discuss and mull over. I'm sure a lot has been written about it.

[Scotty]

Money can't be traded to knowledge. And knowledge is the ultimate power.

Money can buy private detectives to find out whose sleeping with whom, who's cheating and stealing, where the bodies are buried. Money can buy education and tutoring. Money can buy private advice, as in an investment advisory, or accountant to advise you how to avoid taxes. Money can buy access to those private intelligence offerings that some of the security corporations offer up to other corporations for a price.

Given enough money I could find out everything there is to know about you. Money CAN buy knowledge.

[GostHacked]

Money can buy private detectives to find out whose sleeping with whom, who's cheating and stealing, where the bodies are buried. Money can buy education and tutoring. Money can buy private advice, as in an investment advisory, or accountant to advise you how to avoid taxes. Money can buy access to those private intelligence offerings that some of the security corporations offer up to other corporations for a price.

Given enough money I could find out everything there is to know about you. Money CAN buy knowledge.

You can find out everything about me, but you still won't 'know' me.

[Scotty]

You can find out everything about me, but you still won't 'know' me.

Once I've bought all that information on you I'll hire behavioural psychologists who will then tell me everything about how you think and behave.

[GostHacked]

Once I've bought all that information on you I'll hire behavioural psychologists who will then tell me everything about how you think and behave.

And you still won't 'know' me.

[Pliny]

Money can buy private detectives to find out whose sleeping with whom, who's cheating and stealing, where the bodies are buried. Money can buy education and tutoring. Money can buy private advice, as in an investment advisory, or accountant to advise you how to avoid taxes. Money can buy access to those private intelligence offerings that some of the security corporations offer up to other corporations for a price.

Given enough money I could find out everything there is to know about you. Money CAN buy knowledge.

There is a difference between knowledge and information. Sounds like you are buying information and counting on everyone else to be knowledgable, and if they too are counting on everyone else being knowlegable how reliable is your information? And where is the knowledge?

And true - after buying all that information you still won't know ghosthacked.

Knowledge is not given up easily which accounts for why education is so expensive. And today education is mostly information and not knowledge. The differentiation is made and most of us are supposed to just buy the information - knowledge is too valuable to sell. Who has it? The scientist? The politician? The economist? You have to sort through the crap before you arrive at knowledge. Sounds like you are wililng to just spend your money on crap and leave it at that.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Pliny

[August1991]

Power implies position and ability to enforce one's will moreso than money which simply offers a person choices and a means to get his way.

Pliny, I think you understand my point best (which even I don't understand).

I know several (extended) families and in some of them, the person with the money has the power through purse strings, or a will (testament/heritage).

But in other families, one person leads through sheer force of will, power. Others defer, and the person makes good decisions.

And finally, I know of some families where the person with the money defers to the person with power.

-----

The distinction between money and power is not obvious at all, and I think family is a good way to understand it.

Edited March 13, 2011 by August1991

[Moonlight Graham]

The distinction between money and power is not obvious at all, and I think family is a good way to understand it.

Your last post was pretty interesting. Something to ponder.

However, if we're applying power & money to politics, then that is a very different dynamic than family.

Basically, power and money are two distinct things, but often interwoven. You can obtain power using money, and obtain money using power, but don't necessarily need one to obtain the other. It all depends on the circumstance. Hmm how vague

[bloodyminded]

Yeah, it's a big subject. Probably everything that ahs been said on this thread is correct, or at least defensible as argument, because there are many ways to look at relationships between power and moeny.

Bertrand Russell took on this subject, in an expansive way. I haven't read all he had to say about it, but I did read an essay in which he posits that the very, very rich eventually become more interested in power (and/or the related, but still somewhat distinct, matter of glory) than they are of the money itself.

For a contemporary example, donald Trump does not continue to amass wealth because of greed. Greed was propbably the prime motivator, intially, although power and prestige are rarely absent from such desires. But at any rate, Trump is now in the process of trying to accumulate power.

[August1991]

Basically, power and money are two distinct things, but often interwoven.

I think what I mean by "power" is the ability to convince others to follow your advice or decision.

All families at various times face various trying problems. Sometimes, one family member stands out as the person with the best solution or approach. When this person does this several times, then that person holds "power" or at least has a reputation for making good decisions.

[Pliny]

This is an interesting discussion. I haven't really thought of differentiating money and power too much.

I think what I mean by "power" is the ability to convince others to follow your advice or decision.

Is that leadership?

Can power be bought? If one runs out of money is his power gone? I think from Scotty's perspective of buying "power" he would be broke in no time.

All families at various times face various trying problems. Sometimes, one family member stands out as the person with the best solution or approach. When this person does this several times, then that person holds "power" or at least has a reputation for making good decisions.

Does power have anything to do with being right or wrong? Does might make right?

Once again, I find myself returning to the idea that power has to do with holding a "position" and the ability to maintain it.

It requires perception and the ability to act. I don't believe right or wrong has anything to do with power. It is more of a willingness to use force and one needs a base or grounding to be able to exercise that force. The platform of a political party is where it gets its support and thus it's power. If the principles are not kept it loses support and consequently power. I suppose reason plays a part initially with clear goals and objectives.

It reminds me of George Washington's famous quotation about government. "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.

So one needs a solid constitution and demonstration of a will to execute it, and from there power accumulates. Is there any doubt why the drawing up of a manifesto of a political ideology is one of the first actions that stem from it's inception.

I'm sorry but anything more I have to say on the subject is going to cost.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Pliny

[dre]

Power/Influence is a commodity that you can purchase with money. They are different things but one can be exchanged for the other.

[August1991]

Power/Influence is a commodity that you can purchase with money.

"Money" is a claim on real assets.

OTOH, "power" is the reputation to make good decisions.

Can someone purchase a reputation?

-----

Is that leadership?

I wondered the same. Is leadership=power?

(My general response to understanding basic concepts is to translate them into languages that I know. If I cannot easily translate words, then I wonder more. "Power" is easy to translate. "Leadership" is not.)

Money is a recent idea in civilization. Power is far older. IMV, it is wrong to confuse the two words.

Edited March 17, 2011 by August1991

[Oleg Bach]

IMHO, there is a big difference between power and money. And the difference is apparent in families.

Power is the ability to lead, provide direction. Money is a claim on a resource.

My potential net worth is probably if I liquidate my art work and musical matieral (market) is probably a few million bucks..seeing I am not much of a closer - and am terrible at buisness matters... in plain language, materially I live a thrid world life style as far as disposable income are concerned - so in that area I am powerless...BUT - a man who knows me fairly well who swings deals in the billions once said...regarding my so called poverty..."You are in a very powerful position" - I believe he meant I can not be bought or sold or corrupted..and I can say what I please because I have absolutely nothing to lose ..I can not be coerced through my children...cos' they are adults...nor can I be bribed to do bad things because I am simply not interested in selling my soul for luxury....I guess I am a very powerful man - and I might just start using that power soon...not for the love of money - but the making of money..in order to have wonderful things manifest in the world...some have tons of money and no real influence - or respect or brains - but they are smart enough to buy these things including a designer to tell them what colour bedding to sleep on.