jbg Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Some people here are also vegetables, but that doesn't mean they should die. In addition to being a personal attack, probably on me, that isn't remotely funny. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
cybercoma Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 So, it still begs the question: in cases where the patient is in a non recoverable vegetative state why put them on life support systems in the first place, because taking them off the system is when it gets ethically tough. I'm not entirely certain, but I would think they put the child on life-support before they even knew the extent of the problems. When they first realized he couldn't breathe on his own and that there were problems, they would put him on life-support to give them time to figure out what's wrong and if there's anything they can do. At this point, there's nothing they can do and they're merely keeping the child on life-support out of compassion for the family. In other words, the only reason the child is on life-support now is to give the family a chance to grieve and say goodbye. Unfortunately, it sets up a situation where people seem to think they are killing their already dead child. Not putting him on life-support, though, would mean a child would die that could otherwise be saved. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 In addition to being a personal attack, probably on me, that isn't remotely funny. Sorry jbg, but it isn't always about you. And it is very funny. Go have a Coke and a smile. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Mr.Canada Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 If Tommy Douglas was still around these people would've never been allowed to have this child. He advocated the sterilization of the unfit. He strongly believed in eugenics. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 No one said he was perfect. ...but someone did say he was The Greatest Canadian. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 If Tommy Douglas was still around these people would've never been allowed to have this child. He advocated the sterilization of the unfit. He strongly believed in eugenics. So did everyone else in the 20s. Quote
cybercoma Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 ...but someone did say he was The Greatest Canadian. And Jefferson had slaves. You can't hold someone from 80 years ago up to present-day ideals. Quote
Molly Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 At this point, there's nothing they can do and they're merely keeping the child on life-support out of compassion for the family. In other words, the only reason the child is on life-support now is to give the family a chance to grieve and say goodbye. Unfortunately, it sets up a situation where people seem to think they are killing their already dead child. Nicely put. And to carry it further, what the parents are proposing falls more nearly under the heading of an indignity to a corpse than that of a life-saving or extending procedure, or even palliative care. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 And Jefferson had slaves. You can't hold someone from 80 years ago up to present-day ideals. Jefferson wasn't voted to be The Geatest American. Nice try.... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Jefferson wasn't voted to be The Geatest American. Nice try.... This is such a moot point that I'm not even sure if you're not just trolling me. Not only is it completely off topic, but I'm pretty sure if there was a vote for Greatest American, the man who was primarily responsible for writing the Declartion of Independence would be up there. Give me a break. Quote
Smallc Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 This is such a moot point that I'm not even sure if you're not just trolling me. He is. That's what he does. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) This is such a moot point that I'm not even sure if you're not just trolling me. Not only is it completely off topic, but I'm pretty sure if there was a vote for Greatest American, the man who was primarily responsible for writing the Declartion of Independence would be up there. Give me a break. Since we are way off topic...you are still wrong. George Washington and Abe Lincoln would garner more support. Don't get mad at me....another member pointed out Mr. Douglas' support for eugenics. Edited February 24, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 As heartbreaking as it is I'd rather make the resources available where a life can really be saved. The parent's are the one's providing the resources. They're using their own money to pay. They're not asking for any help. Quote
Smallc Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 The parent's are the one's providing the resources. They're using their own money to pay. They're not asking for any help. The resources woud still be used. Medical equipment doesn't materialize out of thin air. Quote
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 The resources are still rationed away from someone else that might need them. How do you know that? What if nobody else needs them right now? Quote
Smallc Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 How do you know that? What if nobody else needs them right now? What if someone needs them in a few minutes? What if the baby is already dead, and should be left to die, as doctors, review boards, and judges all seem to think? Quote
cybercoma Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Since we are way off topic...you are still wrong. George Washington and Abe Lincoln would garner more support. Don't get mad at me....another member pointed out Mr. Douglas' support for eugenics. You're playing word games based on assumptions. You say Washington and Lincoln would garner more support, but I'm sure "[Jefferson] would be up there", as I said in the post earlier. The only reason you can say that Douglas is THE greatest Canadian is that there was a publicized vote. In any case, I'm not mad. I was merely pointing out that you can't hold someone from generations ago up to the moral-values of today. When you jumped in and said he was voted The Greatest Canadian, I responded that Jefferson, who unquestionably is considered one of the greatest Americans, likewise had a different set of values than we do today because he owned slaves. You have, once again, completely missed the point and decided to make this a game about THE greatest Canadian versus whether or not Jefferson would be considered THE greatest American. Quote
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 What if someone needs them in a few minutes? I would think that would be left up to the hospital to decide. If the Michigan hospital feels as though it has excess capacity to take on this infant, so be it. It shouldn't concern you, or any other anti-freedom busybodies. Quote
Smallc Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 I would think that would be left up to the hospital to decide. If the Michigan hospital feels as though it has excess capacity to take on this infant, so be it. It shouldn't concern you, or any other anti-freedom busybodies. Obviously, the Michigan hospital didn't think that at all. Keep up the rhetoric though. I won't bother to try to argue with you and those like you who support the desecration of a corpse. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 ... The only reason you can say that Douglas is THE greatest Canadian is that there was a publicized vote. Exactly...that's what makes the joke work. Canadians actually voted for this guy over all others, despite knowing about his wanting to play God. In any case, I'm not mad. I was merely pointing out that you can't hold someone from generations ago up to the moral-values of today. When you jumped in and said he was voted The Greatest Canadian, I responded that Jefferson, who unquestionably is considered one of the greatest Americans, likewise had a different set of values than we do today because he owned slaves. You have, once again, completely missed the point and decided to make this a game about THE greatest Canadian versus whether or not Jefferson would be considered THE greatest American. Thanks for the re-cap...the distinction being that Canadians actually did vote for Douglas. Your rejoinder about Jeffersen was just a heckle after the fact. I refer you to Seinfeld, a popular American sitcom from the 90's for comic theory and timing. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 I would think that would be left up to the hospital to decide. If the Michigan hospital feels as though it has excess capacity to take on this infant, so be it. It shouldn't concern you, or any other anti-freedom busybodies. The Michigan hospital rejected their request because they believed it wasn't in the child's best interests. Also, you seem to be focused on the equipment and the parents means to procure these services. If it was just about the equipment, then the child could just be brought home with the equipment there. It's not that simple. It's about the child taking up resources in general: hospital staff, doctors, much needed hospital space. If there's nothing they can do for the child to save his life, then it's not fair to others that need help to take up a bed in the only specialized child-care facility south of Toronto. The hospital is not denying the parents care. They had their care. If they continue to tie up the hospital for a patient that is beyond help, then others will be denied care as a result. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Obviously, the Michigan hospital didn't think that at all. Keep up the rhetoric though. I won't bother to try to argue with you and those like you who support the desecration of a corpse. LOL! Now this poor kid is already a corpse??? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Exactly...that's what makes the joke work. Canadians actually voted for this guy over all others, despite knowing about his wanting to play God.Show me that the Canadians who voted for Douglas knew about his beliefs regarding Eugenics. Most Canadians don't even know about Alberta's Michener Institute, which actually practiced Eugenics by sterilizing those they conisdered "mental defectives".Besides, you once again miss the point. It doesn't matter that Douglas believed in Eugenics and Jefferson owned slaves. For the fourth time, You can't hold people from generations ago up to the moral standards of society today. Those two are considered great because of their lasting contributions to our societies. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 ....If there's nothing they can do for the child to save his life, then it's not fair to others that need help to take up a bed in the only specialized child-care facility south of Toronto. The hospital is not denying the parents care. They had their care. If they continue to tie up the hospital for a patient that is beyond help, then others will be denied care as a result. If all they want is the trach and a discharge to die at home, what's the big deal? If health care services in Ontario pivot on this one kid tying up a ventilator and staff, it should have been done a long time ago. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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