guyser Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 Your amusement in this case is pretty sorry bc. I know it is big news in conservative circles since I have had a couple of calls from my US friends on this today. As I told them , this is nothing but some priests trying to alter the hand of god and nothing good will come of it. If they want to sepnd the money , go ahead. But like you, this agenda fits some preconceived sterotype that we have death panerls, when in fact we do not. And worse, you know it. But yea, go right ahead and poke the stick using a baby as fodder. Says alot and normally you arent this much of a dick. Ontario has an official "death panel"....to save money! Could you link the site for us? See, it seems to me that whenever any Canadian, young or old, runs afoul of your broke dick health care system, Except it isnt, and you know that too. they eventually end up running to the United States. Is your system a "broke dick "system when Americans are sent here for treatment (heart and eyes are two) or is this 'different" ? Quote
Moonbox Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 Trolling? You bozos thought the matter was done....but God intervened in his/her holy wisdom...it's a miracle! I reported a factual update to the story, without slobbering rationalizations about how the kid was "already dead". Use the ignore feature and stop whining. I didn't even read your update. Other than the article in the news and the last page or so, I've read next to nothing on the topic. You're baiting people. You're trolling. I'm not whining about it. A lot of the time it's pretty funny. Keep it up for all you like. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 Your amusement in this case is pretty sorry bc. I'm easily amused! I know it is big news in conservative circles since I have had a couple of calls from my US friends on this today. Sorry...no friends from Canada called me...they have all moved to the USA. As I told them , this is nothing but some priests trying to alter the hand of god and nothing good will come of it. It's not even that...it's a pure publicity stunt...DUH! And worse, you know it. But yea, go right ahead and poke the stick using a baby as fodder. Says alot and normally you arent this much of a dick. I've been taking more potent vitamins. Could you link the site for us? No, but you can Google that too...start with wait time metrics! Except it isnt, and you know that too. No, I'm serious about that. Canadians know that whenever they have had their fill of the provincial circle jerk, they just go to a better solution. It's their backup plan. Is your system a "broke dick "system when Americans are sent here for treatment (heart and eyes are two) or is this 'different" ? Different...there is no "right" or promise of guaranteed health care in the US. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
guyser Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 No, but you can Google that too...start with wait time metrics! So , in reality it isnt. I knew that , so did you. No, I'm serious about that. Canadians know that whenever they have had their fill of the provincial circle jerk, they just go to a better solution. It's their backup plan. Then you are seriously misinformed . Different...there is no "right" or promise of guaranteed health care in the US. People will travel where they feel they can have the best results based on their own pocketbook. "Right" or promise is a misnomer. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 People will travel where they feel they can have the best results based on their own pocketbook. "Right" or promise is a misnomer. On this we most certainly agree....there is no such right in Canada. But politically, it would be career death to admit that as a candidate. To this point of a dying child whose parents want a different level of service, they too sought and have obtained something outside of what the province offered. That is the point... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ToadBrother Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 On this we most certainly agree....there is no such right in Canada. But politically, it would be career death to admit that as a candidate. To this point of a dying child whose parents want a different level of service, they too sought and have obtained something outside of what the province offered. That is the point... It is a point. The larger point is that they, or someone, is wasting vast amounts of money, and at some point (hopefully) the doctors tending the infant will, in the interests of ethical behavior, have to tell the parents that nothing can be done and nothing is being served by keeping the respiratory system going. I can appreciate the parents' grief, but they apparently went through this before, and there is clearly some genetics at work. As I said before, they were dealt a bad hand, and no amount of money or priests praying or doctors willing to take money for pointless interventions will change the fundamental fact. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 ...I can appreciate the parents' grief, but they apparently went through this before, and there is clearly some genetics at work. As I said before, they were dealt a bad hand, and no amount of money or priests praying or doctors willing to take money for pointless interventions will change the fundamental fact. This ground has already been covered....the final outcome is already known, far better by the parents than you or I. Yet they wanted this child to die on their terms, not Ontario's. And it looks like they will get their wish. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shakeyhands Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 This ground has already been covered....the final outcome is already known, far better by the parents than you or I. Yet they wanted this child to die on their terms, not Ontario's. And it looks like they will get their wish. It's not Ontario's terms, it's the doctors. They are in the best spot to decide what is.. well... best. Quote "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 It's not Ontario's terms, it's the doctors. They are in the best spot to decide what is.. well... best. No they are not....that is the fundamental issue here. Doctors can recommend a course of action or options, but they should not be the final arbiters of life and death with the power of the state to back them up. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ToadBrother Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 This ground has already been covered....the final outcome is already known, far better by the parents than you or I. Yet they wanted this child to die on their terms, not Ontario's. And it looks like they will get their wish. It's looking more to me like they're under the impression the infant can be saved. Quote
ToadBrother Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 No they are not....that is the fundamental issue here. Doctors can recommend a course of action or options, but they should not be the final arbiters of life and death with the power of the state to back them up. And yet doctors are sometimes put in that very position. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 It's looking more to me like they're under the impression the infant can be saved. Wouldn't be the first time somebody has come back from "brain death". Ontario wants to make sure this kid doesn't! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Moonbox Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 No they are not....that is the fundamental issue here. Doctors can recommend a course of action or options, but they should not be the final arbiters of life and death with the power of the state to back them up. I agree with this in principle. If the parents have the money and means to prolong the child's life, that's completely their business. If it's money out of someone else's wallet, however, like the public purse or an insurance company, throwing money at a worthless cause serves nothing but the parents' grief and somewhere the line has to be drawn. Ontario doctors drew the line here and they had every right to do so. An American health insurance company would have done the same. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 I agree with this in principle. If the parents have the money and means to prolong the child's life, that's completely their business. If it's money out of someone else's wallet, however, like the public purse or an insurance company, throwing money at a worthless cause serves nothing but the parents' grief and somewhere the line has to be drawn. Ontario doctors drew the line here and they had every right to do so. An American health insurance company would have done the same. OK...yet the child "lives" to fight another day. This aspect of the story was troubling, in that Ontario's decision was not to be "interfered" with. Eff that...if anything, there should be an appeals process just like any other determination by the 'guvmint. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ToadBrother Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 Wouldn't be the first time somebody has come back from "brain death". Ontario wants to make sure this kid doesn't! "Brain death" is a rather large concept. We're talking specific diagnosis here. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 "Brain death" is a rather large concept. We're talking specific diagnosis here. And I'm sure that 98.5% of the time, they are correct. In the past 20 years or so, we have gotten a far better understanding of death as a process, not a single event defined as "brain death". I mean...hell...we're all gonna die, so why not speed things up and save a buttload of cash! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Moonbox Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 OK...yet the child "lives" to fight another day. This aspect of the story was troubling, in that Ontario's decision was not to be "interfered" with. Eff that...if anything, there should be an appeals process just like any other determination by the 'guvmint. An appeals process would, in effect, do the same thing as allowing the parents to have their own way. It would take months and months all at the taxpayer's expense. The taxpayer's generosity knows limits. One of those is throwing money away at a hopeless cause. In Bible Land it seems taxpayer's generosity ends more or less as soon as you walk into the hospital. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) An appeals process would, in effect, do the same thing as allowing the parents to have their own way. It would take months and months all at the taxpayer's expense. Yep. The taxpayer's generosity knows limits. One of those is throwing money away at a hopeless cause. In Bible Land it seems taxpayer's generosity ends more or less as soon as you walk into the hospital. No, the taxpayer's in "Bible Land" pay anyway, but they have God on their side...the commies in Canada don't. Canadians are quite happy to blow their wad on life incarceration over the death penalty just in case someone is wrongly convicted....this little kid didn't even get that much process. Nice. Edited March 14, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shakeyhands Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 Yep. No, the taxpayer's in "Bible Land" pay anyway, but they have God on their side...the commies in Canada don't. Canadians are quite happy to blow their wad on life incarceration over the death penalty just in case someone is wrongly convicted....this little kid didn't even get that much process. Nice. It has nothing to do with money in the least. But you know that. And the death penalty is far more expensive than locking someone away for their natural life. But you know that too. Quote "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 It has nothing to do with money in the least. But you know that. Some of your countrymen disagree....seems that Ontario has to watch its budget. And the death penalty is far more expensive than locking someone away for their natural life. But you know that too. Not if it is done as fast as they want to pull the plug on this little kid. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Scotty Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 It's looking more to me like they're under the impression the infant can be saved. They'll start an intensive course of prayers immediately, and no doubt the kid will be laughing and dancing by noon tomorrow. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Shakeyhands Posted March 15, 2011 Report Posted March 15, 2011 Some of your countrymen disagree....seems that Ontario has to watch its budget. Well as the Doctors have determined, what is the sense of doing anything else medically to prolong the inevitable? Not if it is done as fast as they want to pull the plug on this little kid. The kids is for all intents and purposes already gone, making statements like yours is boorish and only a sad attempt to be provocotive. It suits you. Quote "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 15, 2011 Report Posted March 15, 2011 Well as the Doctors have determined, what is the sense of doing anything else medically to prolong the inevitable? Then what is the sense in putting him on the vent to begin with? The kids is for all intents and purposes already gone, making statements like yours is boorish and only a sad attempt to be provocotive. It suits you. Then ignore them....pull the plug on me too. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ToadBrother Posted March 15, 2011 Report Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) Then what is the sense in putting him on the vent to begin with? A reasonable assumption would be that this was done prior to a full diagnosis. Generally speaking, where there is respiratory distress or failure, doctors act first and then ask questions later. Edited March 15, 2011 by ToadBrother Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 30, 2011 Report Posted September 30, 2011 Well this sad story has come to end: ST. LOUIS (Reuters) - A 20-month-old Canadian boy with an incurable neurological disorder whose life was extended in the United States after a Canadian hospital declined further treatment, has died at his Ontario home, a family spokesman said on Wednesday. http://news.yahoo.com/canada-boy-treated-u-hospital-refuses-dies-220338477.html Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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