GWiz Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 You can disagree, but you're wrong. You're definitely entitled to your opinion though. Since there is NO ONE on this little planet called Earth that can know everyone on it and ALL their views on any subject and having negated the premise of the comment with my own viewpoint it is in FACT you that is wrong and not me... "Success is determined by taking the hand you are dealt and utilizing it to the very best of your ability." - Ty Boyd Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Shady Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 Since there is NO ONE on this little planet called Earth that can know everyone on it and ALL their views on any subject and having negated the premise of the comment with my own viewpoint it is in FACT you that is wrong and not me... Yes, but there's reasonable assumptions using logic. If you took a poll asking people if they'd like to be compensated more for their labour, I'm fairly certain the vast majority of people would say yes. To suggest otherwise is illogical and disingenuous. Quote
GWiz Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 Yes, but there's reasonable assumptions using logic. If you took a poll asking people if they'd like to be compensated more for their labour, I'm fairly certain the vast majority of people would say yes. To suggest otherwise is illogical and disingenuous. "- everyone in the world would like to make more than they currently make." I believe in tennis that's called "game, set, and match"... Thank you for playing... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Jack Weber Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 How is that being had? If basically snapping and resorting to personal attacks is winning the argument, then I guess he won. O'leary made him snap and look like a fool to his audience, which is investors. That and kevin has to deal with time constraints and looking somewhat. professional. The wage and benefit package is irrelevant. In the end the brazilian workers can do the job at a lower cost to the company than in canada. As a result, they have jobs and aren't reduced to sitting around poor. I sppose leo didn't take into account that their salary has more purchasing power in brazil than it would in canada. At the end of the day the quality of life for brazilians constantly gets better while north america has flattened out. Would you rather see the chinese and brazilians poor for perpetuity? The world has become a big place and money follows the path of least resistance, someone else will always do it better for less. I will ask you to google dragons den vs. Hargrove. Cbc has conveniently removed it from youtube... It is'nt a personal attack when Gerrard basically eviscerated O'Leary's economic position in public... And it's O'Leary's fault he had no real retort because he had been exposed By the wy,it's the very same position you have... And you're right!!! The quality of life for both Brazillian and Canadian workers would faltten out..At a much higher level for them and a much lower level for us!!! And spare me the O'Learyesque platitutdes...Like he,Vale,or,you gives a wit if Chinese or Brazillian worker slave in poverty... The only "freedom" the free marketeers want is the "Freedom" to deploy capital globally in an effort to maximize profit... Free Market economics is a race to the bottom and a wealth redistribution excercise upwards into the hands of the few... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Shady Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 The only "freedom" the free marketeers want is the "Freedom" to deploy capital globally in an effort to maximize profit... If it's their capital, it's their business to do with it as they please. It's none of yours. Free Market economics is a race to the bottom and a wealth redistribution excercise upwards into the hands of the few... Complete nonsense. Countries with free market economies have higher standards of living than countries without. You're the Blockbuster Video of the forum. Unable to see that increased competition has changed economic reality. You're unwilling to adapt to new cirumstances. And you're entrenched in the belief that the economic reality enjoyed 15 years ago is the same as it is today. Unfortuantely for you, there's Rogers Video, and Netflix, etc. The landscape's changed, and there's nothing you can do to change it back. Unless of course you want other people in other countries to go back to how they were living 20 - 30 years ago. So that you can go back to a time of less competition, and the artifical bonuses it provided. Quote
Jack Weber Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 Professor... This is your usual sorry tactic when faced with something you know almost nothing about... Namely,intimate someone is crazy to nullify an arguement you might actually be proven to have less than a tenuous grasp of the actual facts... And certainly have an even lesser (if that's even possible) grasp of tactics... Clearly,you've never been in a contract negotiation,because if you had been,you would realize you are'nt negotiating the current contract buy future ones,as well.... But ,of course,with your intimate knowledge of who's behind things like the RTW movement (you still cannot cite for me,or anyone else,what the NAM is or the Citizens Alliance is and what their goals are),you already knew these things... Right? Tell me something Professor (of industrial labour relations...along with your intimate knowledge of 20th century history and political science)... Why would free entreprise/anti organized labour people like the Koch's ( who we know fund free market groups like the CATO Institute and other Right to Work groups) be interested in a state budgetary problem in Wisconsin??? What's in it for them if it was only about simply public sector bargaining rights??? Now we'll see if you have thought this one through,Professor... Got an answer for this one yet,Professor... Or are you just going to keep trying to avoid it??? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
blueblood Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 It is'nt a personal attack when Gerrard basically eviscerated O'Leary's economic position in public... And it's O'Leary's fault he had no real retort because he had been exposed By the wy,it's the very same position you have... And you're right!!! The quality of life for both Brazillian and Canadian workers would faltten out..At a much higher level for them and a much lower level for us!!! And spare me the O'Learyesque platitutdes...Like he,Vale,or,you gives a wit if Chinese or Brazillian worker slave in poverty... The only "freedom" the free marketeers want is the "Freedom" to deploy capital globally in an effort to maximize profit... Free Market economics is a race to the bottom and a wealth redistribution excercise upwards into the hands of the few... Once again gerrard throwing a hissy fit, resorting to a personal attack ("you don't know what your talking about"), and having a pity party isn't eviscerating anyone. Uncle kevin as a tv host prefered to let the shop steward make an ass out of himself. GDP numbers and higher standards of living are proof positive that those who compete are those who benefit. Because the americans won't compete, they will be mired in 10 percent umemployment until they either smarten up or the emerging markets umemployment plummets and there is a workforce shortage resulting in too high of wages to justify the ocean freight. Let's look at tim hortons for example, non unionized yet a worker in alberta outearns the worker in ontario. Why is that, could that be free market economics? People employed in china and brazil and making money whatever their salary is a good thing because being in the commodity business, the more paying customers the better. The bigger the fools are in the manufacturing belt of usa and canada, the more capital goes to emerging markets employing potential customers. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
pinko Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) Once again gerrard throwing a hissy fit, resorting to a personal attack ("you don't know what your talking about"), and having a pity party isn't eviscerating anyone. Uncle kevin as a tv host prefered to let the shop steward make an ass out of himself. GDP numbers and higher standards of living are proof positive that those who compete are those who benefit. Because the americans won't compete, they will be mired in 10 percent umemployment until they either smarten up or the emerging markets umemployment plummets and there is a workforce shortage resulting in too high of wages to justify the ocean freight. Let's look at tim hortons for example, non unionized yet a worker in alberta outearns the worker in ontario. Why is that, could that be free market economics? People employed in china and brazil and making money whatever their salary is a good thing because being in the commodity business, the more paying customers the better. The bigger the fools are in the manufacturing belt of usa and canada, the more capital goes to emerging markets employing potential customers. Nice to see you aspiring to a job at Tim Hortons. You must lack initiative. Whereb did you say you went to school? Edited March 2, 2011 by pinko Quote
blueblood Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 Nice to see you aspiring to a job at Tim Hortons. You must lack initiative. Whereb did you say you went to school? Being as I have stated numerous times I own a commodity production business, your reading comprehension needs some work. And judging by your response a better school than you. Does your school give refunds? Oh we rednecks can be such a pain sometimes!! Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
pinko Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 Being as I have stated numerous times I own a commodity production business, your reading comprehension needs some work. And judging by your response a better school than you. Does your school give refunds? Oh we rednecks can be such a pain sometimes!! Should I be impressed, hotshot? Where did you say you went to school? Quote
Pliny Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 The only "freedom" the free marketeers want is the "Freedom" to deploy capital globally in an effort to maximize profit... They will pay handsomely to those who help them maximize profit, too. They give to each according to their ability and take from no one. Free Market economics is a race to the bottom and a wealth redistribution excercise upwards into the hands of the few... Where have you seen free market economics? As we see smaller companies that can't afford the labour shut down and vast corporate monopolies shaping up on the landscape. They like that freedom from competition, too. Ever since Unions have been arouind you have been complaingin aobut the same thing even though a free market economy hasn't existed for over a century. Quote I want to be in the class that ensures the classless society remains classless.
punked Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 Republicans pass motion to fine the Missing Dems 100 dollars a day they miss. Dems fire back starting the Recall Campaign on 8 Republicans. There is no dialing back now. Quote
Pliny Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 Yes, but there's reasonable assumptions using logic. If you took a poll asking people if they'd like to be compensated more for their labour, I'm fairly certain the vast majority of people would say yes. To suggest otherwise is illogical and disingenuous. I won't argue the point if he wishes to take the generality literally. Generalities tend to be always wrong - even this one. I will just amend my statement to Rational people all wish to make more money than they are making. Even one who is content making what he is making wouldn't say no to a raise. The only other possibility is they are on their death bed and don't really give a damn. Quote I want to be in the class that ensures the classless society remains classless.
Pliny Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this worthy post. Pliny, on 28 February 2011 - 07:16 AM, said:You don't see a conflict of interest?Is a Public Service Union member and/or the Union Executive likely to support politician A who promises entitlements to the Union or politician B who thinks that public service unions have a direct conflict of interest and shouldn't be allowed. How is this any different than any other special interest? It isn't. There should be no special interests. Federally, the only interest should be the country and the individuals in it. The private sector has a built in means to check the demands of Unions it is called competiton. There is a means to judge the cost of labour because there is a product or service involved. If the labour is too costly then the product is too pricy for the consumer and the sales of their product or service disappear and the company goes under. Consequence = no job. There is no such means to check a public service union. The politician promises them cake and they vote for him. There will either have to be an increase in taxes to pay for that cake or government deficit spending will have to cover it. So the problem isn't with workers, it's with politicians. Why not do something about the politicians? Why create a lower class of worker because politicians give into special interests? And why stop at public sector unions? Why not go after corporate interests, environmental interests, senior citizens interests... the list goes on and on. Right. Now you are getting it. Ah, I see, a Libertarian. Has it entered your whooly head that groups of taxpayers can be special interests too? And let's call taxpayers by their proper name here, voters, and believe me, no special interest gets more pork barreling than voters. Whooly head? Really! Read some of my posts. Social Democracy is not a democracy of individuals it is a democracy of special interests. Voters have their special interests. Some, with the financial backing and organizational skills are even more special than others. If yo want to start a specialinterest group submit your platform to the Government and they may even fund it with a grant. There are procedures for requesting grants that If you google it I'm sure will help if you are so inclined. No. The conditions of employment are a contractual agreement. In the case of the public service the contract is with the taxpayer. No it is not. It is with the government. There is a critical difference. Beyond that, government is there to represent citizens, not taxpayers alone. Ok. The government is "supposed to" represent the citizens and in doing so is expected to negotiate on their behalf in the interests of the cocuntry as a whole not in the interests of getting Union support and votes down the road. I don't even understand this sentence. Politicians make promises to spend money on all kinds of things. I'm still not clear why you find unions so offensive on this regard. It's public unions. Private unions need some limits too as they have too many entitlements from government which gives them far too much of a foundation of power. If the members of a Union want to know their real "value" to a company then they should be willing to be replaced. If the company is willing to replace them then the real value of their labour is lower than they are getting compensated for and conversely if the company does not wish to replace them then the value of their labour is underpriced. Government protections actually distort the value of labour and make it difficult to adjust to economic fluctutations such as technological advances and market competition. Let's face it, you just have to read this thread to realize that Unions are no friend to management or business owners. The very hand that feeds them is constantly villified. They have destroyed many companies and even industries with their demands. Co-operation is a one-way street for them. Any wonder why corporations are fleeing and capitalists are union shy with a dropping popularity in the general public over the last half decade. Security doesn't put food on the table. I see no reason than a public sector receptionist should not seek similar wages to a private sector receptionist. As to security, maybe 50 or 100 years ago a civil servant could hope for longevity in their position, but that kind of security evaporated a long time ago. It hasn't evaporated. Teacher's are never fired for incompetence. They practically have to have a criminal indictment against them. Government employees that are a problem are usually transferred or promoted out of their positions in order to remove them, not fired. It's a tough thing to do, fire a public employee. And that's at all levels of government. As to teachers, nurses and dcotors, well these are professions, why should they not receive compensation commensurate to their training and experience? Would you like to have poorly paid doctors and nurses? Is this what you think will create some sort of an optimal system? There has to be a way to judge their value to society. Does it have to be by money? Insurance companies in the US distort their value. Government public health care insurance distorts their value as well. I am of the opinion that health care cannot and does not function well run on the business model. I have no idea what to replace it with - perhaps as a charity. It seems to be doing a lot of extra fundraising doing that. I wonder if that is included in the overall statistics as a health care cost or if only what government spends on health care. It seems to be the way of government services to first pay the costs out of tax dollars, then increasing the tax dollars, then introducing user fees, then having fines, and then you see some of the services being privatized, such as increased demand for security guards, tolls on bridges and tunnels, discussions of not treating certain lifestyle choices or taxing them, and in Canada we are seeing a demand for having the option of private for fee healthcare as a means to alleviate the long wait lines for specialty services. We could have just left those things in the private sector in the first place. Quote I want to be in the class that ensures the classless society remains classless.
Jack Weber Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 (edited) Once again gerrard throwing a hissy fit, resorting to a personal attack ("you don't know what your talking about"), and having a pity party isn't eviscerating anyone. Uncle kevin as a tv host prefered to let the shop steward make an ass out of himself. GDP numbers and higher standards of living are proof positive that those who compete are those who benefit. Because the americans won't compete, they will be mired in 10 percent umemployment until they either smarten up or the emerging markets umemployment plummets and there is a workforce shortage resulting in too high of wages to justify the ocean freight. Let's look at tim hortons for example, non unionized yet a worker in alberta outearns the worker in ontario. Why is that, could that be free market economics? People employed in china and brazil and making money whatever their salary is a good thing because being in the commodity business, the more paying customers the better. The bigger the fools are in the manufacturing belt of usa and canada, the more capital goes to emerging markets employing potential customers. No.. Gerrard answered all of O'Learys moronic accusations and made O'Leary look like the Vulture Capitalist fool that he is! What he got was a little chin music and he did'nt like it... The final denoument was watching Gerrard ask O'Leary if he wants Canadian workers to live like Brazilian workers,and the dopey and clueless look that was left on your hero's face because he would have been forced to answer with an obfuscating affirmative... The obfusacting affirmative the rest of your diatribe has given me to my statement about the race to the bottom... Edited March 3, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GWiz Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 No.. Gerrard answered all of O'Learys moronic accusations and made O'Leary look like the Vulture Capitalist fool that he is! What he got was a little chin music and he did'nt like it... The final denoument was watching Gerrard ask O'Leary if he wants Canadian workers to live like Brazilian workers,and the dopey and clueless look that was left on your hero's face because he would have been forced to answer with an obfuscating affirmative... The obfusacting affirmative the rest of your diatribe has given me to my statement about the race to the bottom... It's quite amazing to me the PATIENCE people on here have with certain people that are totally clueless about the real world they live in... How you do it is honestly beyond anything I could ever do... Maybe it's my ALIEN blood, but over 1450 posts on this thread to accomplish nothing is truly unbelievable... "There is no such thing as a self-made man. You will reach your goals only with the help of other." - George Shinn Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Jack Weber Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 (edited) It's quite amazing to me the PATIENCE people on here have with certain people that are totally clueless about the real world they live in... How you do it is honestly beyond anything I could ever do... Maybe it's my ALIEN blood, but over 1450 posts on this thread to accomplish nothing is truly unbelievable... "There is no such thing as a self-made man. You will reach your goals only with the help of other." - George Shinn It's because I have sat across a negotiating table with people who think precisely like Pliny,Blueblood,Yukon Jack,and even,The Professor... I have caught those people (not the ones here...well...some of them ) in there own lies so many times it' not funny... I have heared all of their feeble excuses and laughed at them all... It drives them crazy (again,not the people here) that they actually have to deal with someone they feel is their inferior... In every instance,the issues are almost never about money...It's always about power and control and money is really a secondary,if not tertiary,issue... That's why specific contract language is so important... So these people are a piece of cake... Edited March 3, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GWiz Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 It's because I ahve sat across a negotiating table wiht people who think precisely like Pliny,Blueblood,Yukon Jack,anf even,The Professor... I have caught those people (not the ones here...well..sme of them ) in there own lies so many times it' not funny... I have heared all of their feeble excuses and laughed at them all... It drives them crazy (again,not the people here) that they actually have to deal with someone they feel is their inferior.. In every instance,the issues are almost never about money...It's always about power and control and money is really a secondary,if not tertiary,issue... So these people are a piece of cake... You have my sympathy, seriously, I thought there were some "fruitcakes" on the Hannity for'em, and there are for sure, but they at least had some strange convoluted basis for how they where, here there's just NOTHING... It's like something in the water turned their brains to grapefruit jelly... And there's so many of them relatively speaking... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Jack Weber Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 Well... From having to deal with these peope more than I have ever wanted to,I have come to my own anecdotal conclusion... And it is that they have a big empty hole where their heart used to be (if it ever was) and has to be filed up,at an almost pathological level,with physical manifestations of power and control... It seems ot be the only thing that really drives these people at all... For all thier wealth,and I've dealt with people who have walking around money that equates to 6 months of what I make,I find them pathetic... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
pinko Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 Republicans pass motion to fine the Missing Dems 100 dollars a day they miss. Dems fire back starting the Recall Campaign on 8 Republicans. There is no dialing back now. Nor should there be. The Republican Party is moving the USA toward a one party state much like many of the tyrannical states they have supported in the past. The labour movement can and must fight this assault on the fundamental right of collective bargaining in the USA in conjunction with a concerted effort on the part of the Democrats to distinguish themselves in a material way from the Republicans. It would be helpful if the American president would be more forceful in challenging his Republican adversaries rather than kow tow to them as he has done to date. Quote
pinko Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 "I own a commodity production business" What does this business produce? Quote
GWiz Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 Well... From having to deal with these peope more than I have ever wanted to,I have come to my own anecdotal conclusion... And it is that they have a big empty hole where their heart used to be (if it ever was) and has to be filed up,at an almost pathological level,with physical manifestations of power and control... It seems ot be the only thing that really drives these people at all... For all thier wealth,and I've dealt with people who have walking around money that equates to 6 months of what I make,I find them pathetic... I guess it all boils down to where these people worship... Praying to the idol of the almighty dollar (insert currency of choice) will have these kinds of effects on the rationality of the human psychy I suppose... The strange and worrisome aspect of the phenomena is when humans without the "walking around money" you describe join those that do without knowing, nor understanding, the ultimate consequences of their actions... Oh well, things will be as as they will be, humanity is incapable of changing it's destructive ways and is therefore doomed to be instrumental in it's own demise... Enjoy the ride my friend, it will be interesting to watch if nothing else... "You cannot tailor-make the situations in life, but you can tailor-make the attitudes to fit those situations." Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Michael Hardner Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 Nor should there be. The Republican Party is moving the USA toward a one party state much like many of the tyrannical states they have supported in the past. You do realize that the current president is a Democrat right ? Last 40 years = 16 years Democratic president, 24 years Republican President Last 20 years = 12 years Democratic president, 8 years Republican President I don't see a move to one party there. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 (edited) Being as I have stated numerous times I own a commodity production business, your reading comprehension needs some work. And judging by your response a better school than you. Does your school give refunds? Oh we rednecks can be such a pain sometimes!! You and Pinko are so tiresome in your querying each others' backgrounds, getting ready to argue from authority. It's like having to sit through the 'Coming Soon' promos before seeing a movie my wife made me see with her. Arguing from authority basically says "My argument is better than yours because I have THIS attribute." But if your argument can't be made on its own merits, then it's usually a bad argument. If you have more information, or a background or expertise in an area - they link to it and bring the knowledge here. There are cases where you can defer to a personal experience, but that shouldn't be the foundation for a whole argument. I've been on MLW for 8 years so I know BETTER THAN YOU how to discuss things on MLW so THERE ! Edited March 3, 2011 by Michael Hardner Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 Warning: Please consult your ironist before reading the last line of the previous post. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.