GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 More than you might think...just ask the ladies...and his wife. I did... Now answer the question on impeaching a Governor oh all knowledgable one of the U.S of A... Of course if you are AFRAID to answer, or don't know, you can just tell us... Inquiring minds want to know... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) I did... Now answer the question on impeaching a Governor oh all knowledgable one of the U.S of A... Of course if you are AFRAID to answer, or don't know, you can just tell us... Inquiring minds want to know... Are you daft? President Bill Clinton was impeached while in office and faced dogged allegations while in office as Arkansas governor for Whitewater. To impeach a Wisconsin governor requires a petition and vote of the State Assembly. Trial in the Senate... Didn't you learn anything watching all that American TV? Edited February 24, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Didn't you learn anything watching all that American TV? He only knows what Jon Stewart tells him. Quote
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Are you daft? President Bill Clinton was impeached while in office and faced dogged allegations while in office as Arkansas governor for Whitewater. To impeach a Wisconsin governor requires a petition and vote of the State Assembly. Trial in the Senate... Didn't you learn anything watching all that American TV? Yeah, but it's so much better coming from you... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 He only knows what Jon Stewart tells him. Yup, and so do A WHOLE LOT of Americans that across the country voted Jon Stewart and The Daily Show "the most trusted name in news" ahead of ALL the News Channels including FauxNews... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Professor... This is your usual sorry tactic when faced with something you know almost nothing about... Namely,intimate someone is crazy to nullify an arguement you might actually be proven to have less than a tenuous grasp of the actual facts... And certainly have an even lesser (if that's even possible) grasp of tactics... Clearly,you've never been in a contract negotiation,because if you had been,you would realize you are'nt negotiating the current contract buy future ones,as well.... But ,of course,with your intimate knowledge of who's behind things like the RTW movement (you still cannot cite for me,or anyone else,what the NAM is or the Citizens Alliance is and what their goals are),you already knew these things... Right? Tell me something Professor (of industrial labour relations...along with your intimate knowledge of 20th century history and political science)... Why would free entreprise/anti organized labour people like the Koch's ( who we know fund free market groups like the CATO Institute and other Right to Work groups) be interested in a state budgetary problem in Wisconsin??? What's in it for them if it was only about simply public sector bargaining rights??? Now we'll see if you have thought this one through,Professor... Hey Professor... Time to answer... No selective quoting please... And,as always..Be specific... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Are you daft? President Bill Clinton was impeached while in office and faced dogged allegations while in office as Arkansas governor for Whitewater. To impeach a Wisconsin governor requires a petition and vote of the State Assembly. Trial in the Senate... Didn't you learn anything watching all that American TV? Has that petition started circulating yet? How many signatures does it need? If those Republican senators are recalled will it make a difference in an impeachment hearing? pssst - fyi in case you missed it, this thread is about Walker and Wisconsin not Clinton and Arkansas... just sayin' Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Michael Hardner Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Bush_Cheney has done his part on this thread by (finally) submitting some good numbers around this crisis. I cite his source here: http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Wisconsin_state_budget Year Expenditures ($ GDP ($ %Expenditures/GDP 2000 $34.50 $175.70 19.63574274 2001 $36.90 $180.90 20.39800995 2002 $39.30 $188.60 20.83775186 2003 $40.80 $195.90 20.82695253 2004 $42.40 $205.90 20.59252064 2005 $43.10 $214.10 20.13078001 2006 $45.30 $223.40 20.2775291 2007 $47.50 $232.30 20.44769694 2008 $49.90 $241.50 20.66252588 2009 $52.40 $251.20 20.85987261 Oddly, it doesn't seem that expenditures have risen out of control at all. That cuts a major points I've seen repeated here off at the knees. Furthermore, if you read that thread you will discover that the shortfall is only partially covered by the concessions demanded by the governor. There is also more information about the demands he is making around bargaining: not only are wages the only thing that can be bargained for, but the pay raises are capped. No wonder nobody in their right mind would consider working for public service today. Ah well, you get what you pay for. That isn't surprising though - the shortsightedness I mean - since this is clearly a political move (he won't touch police or other hero occupations' salaries) and financial mistakes have happened often in the past from this source. ( Underpayment of pensions and using a malpractice fund inappropriately are two examples that cancel out the benefits of the proposed cuts. ) Thanks to B_C for providing these numbers. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
pinko Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 I would like to point out that bush cheney is a public servant. The perks, pay and privileges he receives come out of the public purse. Quote
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 I would like to point out that bush cheney is a public servant. The perks, pay and privileges he receives come out of the public purse. No way! Ex navy pilot and now a part of the "Corporate Elite" he told me... Hmmm, has he lied to me before? He's just a nice American with some Canada envy don't you know... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Bush_Cheney has done his part on this thread by (finally) submitting some good numbers around this crisis.... That isn't surprising though - the shortsightedness I mean - since this is clearly a political move (he won't touch police or other hero occupations' salaries) and financial mistakes have happened often in the past from this source. You are quite welcome...I am sure you are also pleased with the open government aspects of that budget data and source. As for the political motivations, I agree that Gov Walker is on a mission, but it is one that is bolstered by a long term, unsustainable debt obligation as discussed last night. Such benefits should never again be permitted as part of collective bargaining, IMHO. PS: Well done on that table....looks good! Edited February 24, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 I would like to point out that bush cheney is a public servant. The perks, pay and privileges he receives come out of the public purse. I wish they did...but alas...you are wrong...again. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 No way! Ex navy pilot and now a part of the "Corporate Elite" he told me... Hmmm, has he lied to me before? He's just a nice American with some Canada envy don't you know... Bite your tongue....I am not a pilot. I flew T-2 Buckeyes as part of my officer commissioning program selection with an instructor, but picked submarines instead. It's more fun to destroy the entire world with SLBMs than trying to do it one building at a time! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 You are quite welcome...I am sure you are also pleased with the open government aspects of that budget data and source. Muchly, yes. Just look at how it opened the window on this debate and let sunlight in. I didn't find much to change my mind on this, however I did notice that he's trying to stave off layoffs, which actually would be the more logical thing to do to reduce long term debt. So I learned something new there. PS: Well done on that table....looks good! I'm turning into a table maker now... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 I would like to point out that bush cheney is a public servant. The perks, pay and privileges he receives come out of the public purse. There are also plenty of civil servants, even swivel servants, who have some objection to the trappings and benefits of their positions. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 So now that we have the benefit of the numbers from B_C's source, we need not worry ourselves with where we went to school, what our jobs are etc. do we ? Or do we ? It's an economics issue right ? Right ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 So now that we have the benefit of the numbers from B_C's source, we need not worry ourselves with where we went to school, what our jobs are etc. do we ? Or do we ? It's an economics issue right ? Right ? Absolutely.. RTW is always about economics... The issue is power and control of those economics in the workplace... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Bite your tongue....I am not a pilot. I flew T-2 Buckeyes as part of my officer commissioning program selection with an instructor, but picked submarines instead. It's more fun to destroy the entire world with SLBMs than trying to do it one building at a time! My bad... Got the NAVY part right though... Now a public servant or Corporate Giant since both are sucking at the public teet? Do you prefer Black or White sheep? Yours are badly neglected as of late... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Absolutely.. RTW is always about economics... The issue is power and control of those economics in the workplace... NOPE! It's all about F-R-E-E-D-O-M, and that spells FREEDOM, let FREEDOM reign no matter who it costs (Cept Corporations that support Walker of course)... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 NOPE! It's all about F-R-E-E-D-O-M, and that spells FREEDOM, let FREEDOM reign no matter who it costs (Cept Corporations that support Walker of course)... Oh yeah... Freedom...NAM style... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 My bad... Got the NAVY part right though... Correct...I was born on the crest of a wave and rocked in the cradle of the deep. Now a public servant or Corporate Giant since both are sucking at the public teet? Nope...independent 1099 contractor..I have to hunt and kill my own food. Do you prefer Black or White sheep? Yours are badly neglected as of late... No preference...sheep are sheep....they come here to get shorn by me. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Correct...I was born on the crest of a wave and rocked in the cradle of the deep. Nope...independent 1099 contractor..I have to hunt and kill my own food. No preference...sheep are sheep....they come here to get shorn by me. Glad to know you... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
WIP Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Right, a period of unprecedented growth, wealth-creation, and technological innovation. As others have already pointed out here, the promises of trickle down economics that were made 30 years ago, have been revealed as a total fraud....except for the top 2% of income earners of course! We are nowhere near an economy that adheres to the idea of "free enterprise"...we live in one of the most controlled economies in history. You want to talk about income disparity? The rich getting richer? You need only look at the size of the public sector, and the revolving door that is the corporate world, and the legislators who sit in Ottawa and Washington, D.C.. Those regulators move in and out of government to have a turn at altering government policy for the benefit of their corporate interests, and then they go back to Goldman Sachs or other investment banks to cash in....same thing with the MMS Dept. managers who were supposed to be regulating offshore drilling, but rushed through drilling permits for BP, removed inconvenient regulations, and allowed the company to write their own inspection reports. That's what happens when corporations have the power to regulate government, instead of the other way around like it was supposed to be done. It might be convenient for you to blame our current economic troubles on "free market" ideology, but it only serves to show how clueless you are. Government subsidies and regulation have taken risk out of the market place, and allowed a wealthy few to exploit a much poorer many. Corporations seek to control markets, and thanks to the right, which wants to eliminate regulations preventing monopolies, they are getting exactly what they want. You want equality? Sure, we all do...and greater equality is achieved through freedom. Greater government control means less freedom and leads to the kind of extortion we see going on with public sector unions, i.e. the teachers in Wisconsin. In a world with no public schools, public health care, or public services, people born in poverty are condemned to live out their lives in poverty...as you may notice if you check on the web for recent data on quality of life comparing the U.S. with Sweden, France and many other European nations with those dreaded SOCIALIST societies. If you were right, upward mobility would be greater in the U.S. than in Western Europe....but it's not...just the opposite is occurring -- Social Immobility: Climbing The Economic Ladder Is Harder In The U.S. Than In Most European Countries The public sector unions are being scapegoated by the wealth class because they have not declined as the rest of the economy has over the last 30 years. Instead of trying to take away what the public sector workers still have, working class people with a brain in their heads should be demanding that the tax rates be put back to what they were before 1980, and those "free trade" deals that destroyed manufacturing jobs and sent them off to Third World countries, be scrapped. GDP growth doesn't mean a rat's ass if the rich are the only ones who have benefited, and everyone else is working longer and longer hours just to keep what they've already got. Lately, I've been pondering why the Koch's and some of the other gangster capitalists are so aggressive and ravenous in their greed. After listening to an historian a few weeks back discuss the Space Race and the rivalry between the U.S. and the Soviet Union in the 1950's and 60's, I'm starting to wonder if the only reason why they were willing to accept unions and progressive taxation was because the Soviet economy was growing fast during those years, and they figured they had to be nice to the working class here for fear that they might be influenced to support the Communist system of expropriating private wealth. After the fall of Communism, what do you know...all of a sudden they want their tax rates reduced every election cycle, and their corporations deregulated. I'm thinking that the CEO's then were likely just as greedy as the ones today, but the ones now think that their version of capitalism has no serious rivals, so they can just go for broke and take us back to the days of the old aristocracies. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 As others have already pointed out here, the promises of trickle down economics that were made 30 years ago, have been revealed as a total fraud....except for the top 2% of income earners of course! Reagan wasn't talking to you in Canada! The Americans, on the other hand, have seen a net rise for inflation adjusted household income. Wanna buy my 60" flat screen HDTV...I want to buy an even bigger one. From 1975 to 2008, you have had multiple wars, multiple recessions, multiple unemployment rate spikes of over 10%, the greatest economic boom in the history of the United States, the greatest real estate boom in the history of the United States, stagflation, multiple presidents, etc. The list goes on and on. It's interesting to look at, between 1975 and 2008, how the median household income in the United States has fluctuated. In 1975, the inflation-adjusted median household income in the United States was $42,936. In 2008, the inflation-adjusted median household income in the United States was $50,303. http://www.davemanuel.com/2009/12/22/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-then-and-now/ Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 As others have already pointed out here, the promises of trickle down economics that were made 30 years ago, have been revealed as a total fraud....except for the top 2% of income earners of course! Those regulators move in and out of government to have a turn at altering government policy for the benefit of their corporate interests, and then they go back to Goldman Sachs or other investment banks to cash in....same thing with the MMS Dept. managers who were supposed to be regulating offshore drilling, but rushed through drilling permits for BP, removed inconvenient regulations, and allowed the company to write their own inspection reports. That's what happens when corporations have the power to regulate government, instead of the other way around like it was supposed to be done. Corporations seek to control markets, and thanks to the right, which wants to eliminate regulations preventing monopolies, they are getting exactly what they want. In a world with no public schools, public health care, or public services, people born in poverty are condemned to live out their lives in poverty...as you may notice if you check on the web for recent data on quality of life comparing the U.S. with Sweden, France and many other European nations with those dreaded SOCIALIST societies. If you were right, upward mobility would be greater in the U.S. than in Western Europe....but it's not...just the opposite is occurring -- Social Immobility: Climbing The Economic Ladder Is Harder In The U.S. Than In Most European Countries The public sector unions are being scapegoated by the wealth class because they have not declined as the rest of the economy has over the last 30 years. Instead of trying to take away what the public sector workers still have, working class people with a brain in their heads should be demanding that the tax rates be put back to what they were before 1980, and those "free trade" deals that destroyed manufacturing jobs and sent them off to Third World countries, be scrapped. GDP growth doesn't mean a rat's ass if the rich are the only ones who have benefited, and everyone else is working longer and longer hours just to keep what they've already got. Lately, I've been pondering why the Koch's and some of the other gangster capitalists are so aggressive and ravenous in their greed. After listening to an historian a few weeks back discuss the Space Race and the rivalry between the U.S. and the Soviet Union in the 1950's and 60's, I'm starting to wonder if the only reason why they were willing to accept unions and progressive taxation was because the Soviet economy was growing fast during those years, and they figured they had to be nice to the working class here for fear that they might be influenced to support the Communist system of expropriating private wealth. After the fall of Communism, what do you know...all of a sudden they want their tax rates reduced every election cycle, and their corporations deregulated. I'm thinking that the CEO's then were likely just as greedy as the ones today, but the ones now think that their version of capitalism has no serious rivals, so they can just go for broke and take us back to the days of the old aristocracies. You know... Your last point is something I think about alot... If did'nt know better,it's almost like there is a concerted effort by the upper class to regain what they feel was "wrongfully taken from them" in the period after WW2 to about 1979... Now,they've had to do this incrementally,hence the wage stagnation since 1980 (for a whole host of reasons legislative and global economic in scope)... But it almost seems like there is a long term effort to take back from those the upper class has always deemed "not worthy"... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
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