bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 BOO! Hey, here's a novel idea what about RAISING TAXES as a way to get out of our debt crisis, especially those that can easily afford to contribute a little more for the benefit of the country or state? Scared? No...raising taxes will not offset all of the structural and growing debt. Wisconsin (and many other states) cannot tax themselves out of a hole that grows larger every day. Entitlements must be curtailed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 http://www.bls.gov/xg_shells/ro5xg02.htm#unemp WOW! Way below the national average... The ex Gov. must have done a heck of a good job... Quite a contrast... Thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 WOW! Way below the national average... The ex Gov. must have done a heck of a good job... Quite a contrast... Thanks... No problem....when you need facts about America...ask an American. Do not accept a Canadian substitute! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 No...raising taxes will not offset all of the structural and growing debt. Wisconsin (and many other states) cannot tax themselves out of a hole that grows larger every day. Entitlements must be curtailed. What's the population of Wisconsin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) WOW! Way below the national average... The ex Gov. must have done a heck of a good job... Quite a contrast... Thanks... Does'nt exactly help Mr.Walkers RTW trojan horse excercise,does it??? Edited February 23, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) What's the population of Wisconsin? Collective bargaining rights as an "entitlement"... Only in the warped minds of the free marketeers.... Edited February 23, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) What's the population of Wisconsin? About 5.7 million. Wisconsin is looking at underperforming retirement portfolios and reduced contributions because of state budget constraints. It has already blown through "free" Obama money, state reserves, and is now forced to balance the budget, as required by law. Edited February 23, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonsa Posted February 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Ah the nirvana of a free market economy. No reason to make sweatshops illegal in a free market economy is there. there's plenty of other jobs that workers could get. And naturally when all those sweatshops lose their employees to better paying, safer jobs the sweat shop owners will change their ways, cause that's how a free market works. There's a reason communism failed - it is a political system that completely ignored human nature. so why not have an economic system that exploits all the most wonderful aspects of human nature like greed, dominance, territoriality, etc. That's gotta be successful for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 "Many people wind up working in unionized positions because it comes part and parcel with the job they've applied for." Exactly and when one accepts employment is such an enterprise one must accept this as a condition of employment. Your comments about public sector unions is patently absurd and lacks a factual basis. In a centrally-planned, highly-controlled economy like ours, jobs are becoming more scarce meaning you take one when you can find it...regardless of whether it's a unionized job or not. In a free market, without government interference, there'd be an abundance of jobs so then maybe you would have the luxury of being so picky as to whether or not you'd like to join a union. What have I said about public sector unions is "patently absurd"? Please explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 http://thedailybeast/blogs-and-stories/2011-02-20/wisconsin-union-fight-is-really-a-15-state-gop-power-grab/?cid=hp:mainpromo5 The Ohio governor gave it away yesterday...In the face of being asked,on CNN,why he was demanding public sector workers give up their collective bargaining rights after they admitted they were prepared to discuss financials....He replied this way... 1.Managers need to be able to manage... (I suspect this is corporate code for "We need to be able to control our workforces!") 2.We have lost alot of jobs to the Southeast and the Mid-West(most,if not all are RTW states) and we need to be able to compete! (He hit 1 of the 3 free marketeer buzzwords with that one..He forgot "productivity" and"freedom"...I suspect they'll follow shortly) This spectacular humanitarian of the year candidate wants to have his working populous end up competing with this... http://www.aflcio.org/issues/legislativealert/stateissues/work I guess competing with places like West Virginia (RTW mine disaster).the Gulf States(RTW oil spill disaster),and Kentucky (mine disaster)..All of this in the last 12 months!!...Is a good thing!!! The free marketeering race to the bottom continues... 'Cause it's all about "the freedom"... (see shareholder value) Your rant against freedom doesn't hold water because you speak as if we already have a free market economy here in Canada or in the US. We don't, and they don't. We have a mixed economy...a welfare-state...freedom is the solution, not the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Your rant against freedom doesn't hold water because you speak as if we already have a free market economy here in Canada or in the US. We don't, and they don't. We have a mixed economy...a welfare-state...freedom is the solution, not the problem. I note you would rather dismiss than engage... Not shocking because I've dealt with your kind before... Kudos for hitting the "freedom" canard,though! Gerry Nichols just called... He said to stop impersonating him... Edited February 23, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 No facts to back up what, exactly? The larger the government, the less free are its constituents...that's logic. Civil servants threatening to walk out from providing an essential service (in this case educating children) is a form of extortion - and it's taxpayers who have to 'pay up or else'. When does the cycle end? It doesn't...every time a union signs a new contract it expects a bump in pay and/or benefits. In the private sector, that's fine...in the public sector...when everyone including the government is broke? It's unsustainable and must be stopped. Do you really need a textbook to help you understand this? I don't recall any public servants threatening to walkout in this particular case. As I have mentioned previously there is a process laid out in The Wisconsin Labour Code and you would be well advised to read it. I believe you have been challenged on several occasions to provide the necessary proof regarding your strawman argument on sustainability. I don't recall you producing such information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/whats-happening-wisconsin-explained Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Right. So they choose that job. Right, because in the current economy they have so many other job opportunities busting down their door? You take the work where you can get it today...very few have the luxury of picking and choosing union-job or non-union job...when you're in debt up to your eyeballs, a job's a job. This is akin to telling people "if they don't like it, they can work elsewhere"... which I hear all the time. However it makes more sense at the beginning of a career, rather than part way through - especially when the employer is changing contracts that they have agreed to. What makes more sense at the beginning of a career? Forget changing contracts for public sector unions...get rid of those unions altogether...thus nullifying any contracts with same. I have already shown you why they do - this very situation. Do you have anything to say to that ? The situation in Wisconsin? Civil servants being told there'll be no more collective bargaining because the state is broke and cannot afford continual raises in pay and better benefits at the expense of all WI taxpayers...that situation? That entire mess highlights the problem with expecting the government to provide education. Government's involvement in education means robbing Peter to pay Paul...it is unsustainable, and as we're seeing it doesn't work. You cannot get blood from a stone...broke is broke. If you don't like the tax system, move elsewhere. Or, better yet, work towards changing it democratically. Already working on changing it. Me move? It isn't going to come to that, freedom will win in the end. It's the socialists that will wind up migrating to a more Statist environment. The system requires that you pay. Whether or not you think that is fair (it is) it's still MORE fair than changing a contract after it has been signed. It's not about fairness...that's completely subjective. It's about what makes sense and what doesn't...about what is efficient, and what creates waste. It's about living in a society driven by logic or a distinct lack thereof. Signed contract or not...the entire idea of civil servants being allowed to collectively bargain invites the kind of inefficiency, wasteful spending, and conflict we're seeing now. It doesn't have to be this way, nor logically should it be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 You really think this is about public sector employees alone,don't you? Explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 "Right, because in the current economy they have so many other job opportunities busting down their door? You take the work where you can get it today...very few have the luxury of picking and choosing union-job or non-union job...when you're in debt up to your eyeballs, a job's a job." Are you in debt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 What's happened to Canada's education system? There was a TIME not that long ago that people would actually make some effort to know something about what they're talkinng about... So, what's your excuse? Instead of trying to insult me, how about getting to the point? Where do you disagree with what I've said, and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/blogger-pranks-wisconsin-gov/whoops/?om_rid=NsfrMk&om_mid=_BNZWh5B8ZUG6BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Explain. Explain what??? Are you so obtuse as to not be able to see the larger issue of getting RTW legislation through the back door in Free Collective Bargaining states???... The Ohio governor admitted as much yesterday... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 "Right, because in the current economy they have so many other job opportunities busting down their door? You take the work where you can get it today...very few have the luxury of picking and choosing union-job or non-union job...when you're in debt up to your eyeballs, a job's a job." Are you in debt? He probably lost a grievance hearing he filed for "timekeeping"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Further to your catchphrase above: can you please provide an economic rationale for how this mess came about ? We're still waiting to see numbers on what is ostensibly an economic issue. ( It isn't. ) This mess in Wisconsin is indicative of a greater philosophical debate whose time has apparently come. The seeds for this fight in WI were sown years ago when it was decided that government must provide what's now known as "public education". Public education requires all taxpayers to pay for all costs contained therein...so when teachers become part of a union, and the wages continually go up with each management v. union "compromise", taxpayers feel the pinch. A government already requiring debt to operate, and in the US where most of the population is highly indebted, it's become harder and harder to make ends meet i.e. pay all of the civil servants under its charge. Given that WI is in the red, it makes no sense to make the problem worse, or kick the can down to the road for a future generation to suffer so that a union can continue to "bargain" for more and more. The entire premise of continual raises in the public sector is unsustainable, especially when the public sector is dead flat broke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) This mess in Wisconsin is indicative of a greater philosophical debate whose time has apparently come. The seeds for this fight in WI were sown years ago when it was decided that government must provide what's now known as "public education". Public education requires all taxpayers to pay for all costs contained therein...so when teachers become part of a union, and the wages continually go up with each management v. union "compromise", taxpayers feel the pinch. A government already requiring debt to operate, and in the US where most of the population is highly indebted, it's become harder and harder to make ends meet i.e. pay all of the civil servants under its charge. Given that WI is in the red, it makes no sense to make the problem worse, or kick the can down to the road for a future generation to suffer so that a union can continue to "bargain" for more and more. The entire premise of continual raises in the public sector is unsustainable, especially when the public sector is dead flat broke. I am wondering if you could answer my question. I will repeat the question. Are you currently in debt? If so how much do you owe? What assets and liabilities do you currently have? Edited February 24, 2011 by pinko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 One further question. Did you receive a public education? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) This mess in Wisconsin is indicative of a greater philosophical debate whose time has apparently come. The seeds for this fight in WI were sown years ago when it was decided that government must provide what's now known as "public education". Public education requires all taxpayers to pay for all costs contained therein...so when teachers become part of a union, and the wages continually go up with each management v. union "compromise", taxpayers feel the pinch. A government already requiring debt to operate, and in the US where most of the population is highly indebted, it's become harder and harder to make ends meet i.e. pay all of the civil servants under its charge. Given that WI is in the red, it makes no sense to make the problem worse, or kick the can down to the road for a future generation to suffer so that a union can continue to "bargain" for more and more. The entire premise of continual raises in the public sector is unsustainable, especially when the public sector is dead flat broke. Wrong... That's far to focused... It might be issue at the moment,but's a much larger one,if the Mother Jones article about who is backing Mr.Walker is even remotely true... The Koch Bros. and there COLLECTIVE free market proponent groups like the CATO Institute (there's at least 3 or 4 other ones).. I doubt that going after collective bargianing rights AFTER the union has said they will discuss financials has anything to do with a budget crisis.This fight is ideological,but it's not just about the public sector unions at all.... Edited February 24, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 One further question. Did you receive a public education? And is he a supporter of the WRAP party in Alberta and does he live there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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