Union Busting in Wisconsin

[pinko]

In "our" system of democracy, elected representatives do not abandon their responsibilities in contempt by hunkering down in another state.

In your system of democracy the rule of law suggests proper notice is required for such matters. Unless you live in a cave and are unfamiliar with the manner in which bills are introduced and debated you must acknowledge the actions of the Republican caucas in Wisconsin is lacking in every material way. Maybe we should have a discussion about the process to be followed in moving a bill through the various legistative stages.

[pinko]

According to a column in Kaiser Health News, Republican staffers jeered at any and all proposals to use Medicare and Medicaid funds better. Spending money on prevention was no more than a “slush fund.” Research on innovation was “an oxymoron.” And there was no reason to pay for “so-called effectiveness research.”

To put this in context, you have to realize two things about the fiscal state of America. First, the nation is not, in fact, “broke.” The federal government is having no trouble raising money, and the price of that money — the interest rate on federal borrowing — is very low by historical standards. So there’s no need to scramble to slash spending now now now; we can and should be willing to spend now if it will produce savings in the long run.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/11/opinion/11krugman.html?_r=1&src=ISMR_HP_LO_MST_FB

[Michael Hardner]

See link below for a historical view:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/budget-2010/

That's interesting, and a good reference point.

It would be good to see absolute real dollar values, and dollars per capita for programs.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ok. You were referring to entitlements, though and now you're referring to people who depend on social assistance. I'm not bringing this up to poke any kind of hole in your argument or anything, I'm just wondering how much of the increase is due to either group of factors.

Social assistance is a means tested entitlement that must be budgeted just as any other entitlement. The "safety net" is not free.

[bush_cheney2004]

In your system of democracy the rule of law suggests proper notice is required for such matters. Unless you live in a cave and are unfamiliar with the manner in which bills are introduced and debated you must acknowledge the actions of the Republican caucas in Wisconsin is lacking in every material way. Maybe we should have a discussion about the process to be followed in moving a bill through the various legistative stages.

The actions of the Republicans were in direct response to the abdication of responsibilities by elected representatives, whether I live in a cave or not. Your bias on this point is obvious.

[pinko]

The actions of the Republicans were in direct response to the abdication of responsibilities by elected representatives, whether I live in a cave or not. Your bias on this point is obvious.

You bring your own bias to the discussion. It appears the authoritarian model offered by the Republicans appeals to you. Of course polls show the vast majority of those polled view the the actions of Governor Walker and the Republican caucas in a negative light.

The model you support excludes proper debate and public input. That may be okay in a banana republic but it shouldn't be for a place that claims to pride itself on espousing freedom and democracy to others.

Edited March 11, 2011 by pinko

[bush_cheney2004]

You bring your own bias to the discussion. It appears the authoritarian model offered by the Republicans appeals to you. Of course polls show the vast majority of those polled view the the actions of Governor Walker and the Republican caucas in a negative light.

'Tis fine by me either way...let the process run its course including recalla and/or elections.

The model you support excludes proper debate and public input. That may be okay in a banana republic but it shouldn't be for a place that claims to pride itself on freedom and democracy.

You have a poor understanding of US political history in this respect. And that's OK.

[pinko]

'Tis fine by me either way...let the process run its course including recalla and/or elections.

You have a poor understanding of US political history in this respect. And that's OK.

How so? Now that you have made such a statement I expect you to explain that history.

[Michael Hardner]

Social assistance is a means tested entitlement that must be budgeted just as any other entitlement. The "safety net" is not free.

Ok, I'm learning here. Next, can we talk about the different entitlement programs and whether they're increasing in real per capita terms, and why ?

[bush_cheney2004]

How so? Now that you have made such a statement I expect you to explain that history.

No problem....if you think for one moment that American political discourse and process is all that and a bag of chips, you obviously don't know of the many storied events that indicate otherwise. Why would you? What's happening in Wisconsin is not even original, let alone unusual.

[pinko]

No problem....if you think for one moment that American political discourse and process is all that and a bag of chips, you obviously don't know of the many storied events that indicate otherwise. Why would you? What's happening in Wisconsin is not even original, let alone unusual.

So you say but you haven't provided a shred of evidence to support your assertion.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ok, I'm learning here. Next, can we talk about the different entitlement programs and whether they're increasing in real per capita terms, and why ?

I think this has already been covered in other threads, particularly health care costs...hence the huge attention paid over the past few years. A nice summary is provided by Kaiser:

http://www.kaiseredu.org/Issue-Modules/US-Health-Care-Costs/Background-Brief.aspx

[bush_cheney2004]

So you say but you haven't provided a shred of evidence to support your assertion.

Look....anybody who follows American politics is already aware of what happend in Texas along these lines.

It's just background you should already know without my prompting when sparring on the subject.

[pinko]

Look....anybody who follows American politics is already aware of what happend in Texas along these lines.

It's just background you should already know without my prompting when sparring on the subject.

I notice you are now down to one situation in Texas. I will wait with baited breath for you to explain, in detail, how the situation in Texas (whenever that may have been) is analogous to the situation in Wisconsin. Of course you will have to show that the law in each state is the same in all material respects.

Edited March 11, 2011 by pinko

[Pliny]

I didn't say unionization didn't result in better benefits. I said they weren't "amazing".

Ah...Ha Ha Ha. It's the adjective. HaHaHa.

"Amazing" is an entirely subjective term. "Better" may or may not be quite amazing and listening to your position, Scotty, sqeezing another nickel out of greedy businesses would be "amazing".

Regardless, it is not really critical to the issue of the discussion except perhaps from a rhetorical point and to claim you have been misinterpreted is not just disingenuous but facetious. I guess as Pogo called it, it is a bogus argument.

[bush_cheney2004]

I notice you are now down to one situation in Texas. I will wait with baited breath for you to explain, in detail, how the situation in Texas (whenever that may have been) is analogous to the situation in Wisconsin. Of course you will have to show that the law in each state is the same in all material respects.

No...I am quite satisfied with your very superficial knowledge of American political history at the federal and state level....including union "busting". I would be equally clueless about Canadian politics and labor relations. And that's OK.

[pinko]

"the many storied events"

and now

"anybody who follows American politics is already aware of what happend in Texas along these lines."

Still waiting.

[Pliny]

Well, Republicans have certainly seemed to demonstrate a healthy interest in enriching big corporate donors and the wealthy over the last thirty years or so.

Yes, they have.

Ubderstanbd this simple economic principle. Corporations, all businesses, offer a product or service for sale to a consumer. Taxation of corporations or businsesses are a "cost" to the production of their product or service. They cannot operate at a loss and so the cost of the product or service must be less than the production costs. So corporate taxes, being a production cost, are incoroprated in the price of their goods or sevices. So the taxes are paid for by the consumer or by cost reductions in other areas of production, labour being one of those costs. Essentially, the consumer pays the coroporate tax which is embedded in the cost of production. If the corporation, due to competition or other economic factors, must keep the price to the consumer down then he must cut other costs to production, such as labour. Either way, the consumer pays the corporate tax and the loser of high corporate taxes could be, and more often than not is labour.

[pinko]

No...I am quite satisfied with your very superficial knowledge of American political history at the federal and state level....including union "busting". I would be equally clueless about Canadian politics and labor relations. And that's OK.

You certainly are clueless in addition to being obtuse. I take it you can't back up your claim.

[bush_cheney2004]

You certainly are clueless in addition to being obtuse. I take it you can't back up your claim.

I don't have to back up anything...I live the claim...you don't. Just be happy we let you use our Google and Internet!

[Pliny]

The big lie is the claim that this is about public sector unions only. Te weakening of public sector unions is mthe first step in weakening all unions and, ultimately, workers' rights and protection.

Unions, in order to enjoy support must change their ways and morph into something useful. Benefits and entitlements that are future economic liabilities are not conducive to the longevity of jobs and it makes no difference if they are considered rights or entitlements when they cannot be funded.

I have never agreed with FDR on policies or Jimmy Carter, for that matter, but public unions have an intrinsic conflict of interest politically and economically. Worker rights in the public sector are better protected in the way the Federal government does it.

[bush_cheney2004]

The deed is done...

Wis. gov. makes it official: Stripped down public worker collective bargaining rights now law

By SCOTT BAUER , Associated Press

MADISON, Wis. - Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker succeeded Friday in taking away nearly all collective bargaining rights from the vast majority of the state's public employees, quietly capping weeks of contentious debate and delivering an epic defeat to the labor movement with a private bill signing.

[pinko]

I don't have to back up anything...I live the claim...you don't. Just be happy we let you use our Google and Internet!

Why would I bother looking for a needle in a haystack. You simply can't back up your argument.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why would I bother looking for a needle in a haystack. You simply can't back up your argument.

That's your business...not mine. Remember, American federal and state government never has to live up to your expectations vis-a-vis "freedom and democracy", and it certainly doesn't based on the history you are clearly unaware of. There is no argument.

[BubberMiley]

I don't have to back up anything...I live the claim...you don't. Just be happy we let you use our Google and Internet!

Translation: I don't know, but I call upon my vast experience as an anonymous resident of Regina to pretend I won this argument.

P.S. Did I mention I make lots of money?