eyeball Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 What people tend to forget is this was a protest over economic conditions that turned into a revolution and not something "orchestrated" by an entity with a specific agenda to take power... That makes all the difference in the world... What people also tend not to face up to is how fundamentally unsustainable our global economy is and that human beings will only put up with so much in the absence of opportunity not to mention basic needs and especially when they're under the thumb of a Mubarak. The very fact that Egyptians did it without any real "organization" AND kept it peaceful is truly amazing and the best reason to believe in a good outcome for everyone including "the west" and even Israel... Except of course for certain other middle eastern countries, for them maybe not so much... We'll have to wait and see...This could even end up as a major turning point in human history... What better place than Egypt where much of civilized human (and maybe non human) history began? It's interesting times we live in all right. What better time than now given things like wikileaks and the low regard and suspicion human beings around the planet have for governments, politicians not to mention power and wealth in general? On top of everything else our economy demands of human beings, everyone also feels the thick moral imperative to provide for themselves weighing down from on high. Given the moral dissonance that must attend life under a corrupt bastard like Mubarak I can only marvel at the restrained patience of the Egyptians during this revolution. As for the next one, there, elsewhere and one day even here...I think that really depends on that moral imperative that keeps bearing down from on high. If it doesn't lighten up or better yet come clean, Egypt could just easily end up as a mere footnote in a far greater turning point in human history that's starting to dawn on the horizon. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 When did he say this ? Source(s) please. In his televised speech, his third since the crisis erupted, Mubarak sought to divert anger outside, vowing to lead a made-in-Egypt transition to free and fair elections in September without “any foreign intervention or dictates regardless of their sources and regardless of their excuses and alibis.”Mubarak also said he was prepared to “admit mistakes” and framed himself as a champion for the 300 protest “martyrs” killed in violence that many attribute to armed thugs working on behalf of his regime. He promised the perpetrators would be brought to justice and punished accordingly. Source Furthermore, this supposed "close association" with the US' military (as opposed to, or in conjunction with, U.S' administration(s), politicians, businessmen, etc. ?) : what is the basis for this claim of close association with the U.S ? It is bantied about as if common knowledge, which is fine of course, if it is true. Pax, Tim I don't know, Gwiz and BC 2004 are the one's making the claim. I don't doubt the close association, I just have deep reservations about how kind and gentle they seem to think the Egpytian military will be as a result of it. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Jonsa Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 You must be watching some other event... Sulieman isn't calling the shots, he's out and was unacceptable to the people, he's toast and he better know it... The Military is in charge and their bread is buttered by the U.S. AND the general population of Egypt who brought this about and NOT any current remnants of the Mubarak regime... Those police and security forces you talk about tried to put the toothpaste back in the tube and couldn't and still can't... They too will either join their people or stay in hiding if they want to keep their heads... We're talking 300 dead and many more injured and all it did is make the people stronger and more willing to stand up against the regime... You think they did all that for nothing and will now meekly go back to same old same old? If you do you know nothing about human nature... You do realize that the military has been in charge since the overthrow of Farouk, don't you. You seem to think that the power structure i.e. relationship between government and military, is the same as in western countries. Not even close. The military's bread might be buttered by the US, but they could just as easily use oil (Saudis). This "revolution" has been cheap. As for human nature, over the years I have repeatedly witnessed the anger of a people being placated by a few cosmetic political and economic scraps with the foundation of the power structure they revolted against remaining in place. One other thing you seem to have missed is that this wasn't an "orchestrated" revolution it was the real thing, a grass roots revolution much like the relatively peaceful overthrow of the Marcos regime in the Philippines back in 1986... I expect a simular and perhaps even better outcome... Like I said, Egyptians aren't stupid, they're well educated for the most part, and they are VERY aware of the rest of the world and the advantages a "western style" democracy offers them... I don't think that the democracy that emerges from this is going to be anything like "western style". they are very aware of the advantages but their muslim upbringing also makes them very aware of the disadvantages and those will weigh more heavily in their political development. Does anyone believe that the Mubarak regime was the sort to "share the benefits of power" outside his family and maybe a SMALL cadre of friends and associates? Oh you mean, the small cadre of 325000 secret police, the thousands of officers in the military, the hundreds of top level bureaucrats, the hundreds of judges and lawyers, the business people who employ roughly 30% of the work force. Nah, you're right he didn't need many people to keep him in power over the 30 years. When you have a well equiped Military that's dependent on it's support (equipment and paycheques) from the U.S. it's unlikely to go against or act against its own interests... The same goes for the Egyptian beaurocracy, a significant number of which ended up on the side of the protesters turned revolutionaries... They too KNOW which side to be on and it isn't the remnants of the Mubarak regime... They also know, now, that Mubarak wasn't into sharing and I'm pretty sure they want to keep their jobs and to do that it's best to be on or join the winning side... Please learn some facts. The 1.3 billion in US military aid - (used to buy US weapons, not finance operations), is about 20% of what the Egyptians spend on their armed forces. Saudi Arabia has already stated that if the US cuts off the dough, they'll ante up, although I'd rather have the US as an ally than the Saudis. And the small fry bureaucrats might have joined in the revolt (how do you know a significant number joined?) they are still tarred with the same corruption brush. Yep, we'll see, and let's see what happens in September and who steps out and/or up as the leadership of a new and improved Egypt...It won't be perfect, nothing is, but I don't think it'll be all that bad either... I'd hope so too. Quote
Jonsa Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Furthermore, this supposed "close association" with the US' military (as opposed to, or in conjunction with, U.S' administration(s), politicians, businessmen, etc. ?) : what is the basis for this claim of close association with the U.S ? It is bantied about as if common knowledge, which is fine of course, if it is true. Pax, Tim Its stems from over 30 years of providing military hardware and training. With providing a healthy acquisition budget for the Egyptian military (you know how much boys luv their toys) and the subsequent schmoozing to ensure that they spend those bucks on US approved military suppliers creates pretty strong relationships. Then there is the cadre of trainers that accompany the hardware. then there are the lecturers at Egyptian military colleges and the exchange programs for Egyptian officers. Then there is the bi-annual Operation Bright Star the joint war games that started back in 1981. this all adds up to the observation that the US and Egyptian military are tight. Quote
eyeball Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Its stems from over 30 years of providing military hardware and training. With providing a healthy acquisition budget for the Egyptian military (you know how much boys luv their toys) and the subsequent schmoozing to ensure that they spend those bucks on US approved military suppliers creates pretty strong relationships. Then there is the cadre of trainers that accompany the hardware. then there are the lecturers at Egyptian military colleges and the exchange programs for Egyptian officers. Then there is the bi-annual Operation Bright Star the joint war games that started back in 1981. this all adds up to the observation that the US and Egyptian military are tight. And probably no different than any homies who take care of their own first. One day we'll all be protesting against them, it won't just be the Egyptians. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 So, speaking of the close need I say cozy associations between military power and of course wealth... Egypt's military, an economic giant, now in charge "I don't think we are going to have neoliberal, Western-style economic reform in Egypt," Rashid Khalidi, a professor of Arab studies at Columbia University, told Time magazine this month. "I think there is going to be a return to some aspect of state-led development so the part of the economy that is controlled by the military may well be reinforced for some time." Again, I'm reminded about that old notion that trading and associating with military dictatorships make them more like ours. I don't doubt it but I also think it's a two way street. This is why I'm convinced we'll all one day be in the same shoes the Egyptians are. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Mr.Canada Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) Egypt will soon become an Islamic socialist republic. The socialists and the Islamic fanatics are working together to destabilize the status quo. The Islamic fanatics and socialists both hate the western way of life and wish to see it destroyed. That is the only reason the socialists are working with the jihadists. We need to go over and kill them all now while they're disorganized. Bomb the hell out of Egypt destroy all their military equipment before it's too late. Egypt will soon team with Iran to conquer Israel to the delight of the socialists. Many of the NDP are antisemitic here in Canada and are vocal supporters of Hamas and Hezzbollah. Egypt has the 9th largest military in the world now and Iran has the 7th or so. These two will team up to push Israel into the sea. This is going to lead us into another world war. The writing is on the wall. Edited February 13, 2011 by Mr.Canada Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
GWiz Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Posted February 13, 2011 In what way are they different, aside from Iran having oil wealth with which to help placate the people's anger? Both nations have a more educated, more westernized urban population, but a huge, rural population whose culture and values are largely the same as their distant ancestors. Their lower class, and rural populations are both extremely conservative Muslims who long for an Islamic state. I already told you, I don't answer snipits of my posts... Address the whole post or don't bother, your choice... You have some kind of comprehension difficulty? By this post it sure seems that way... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
eyeball Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Egypt's military "to ban protests"The Higher Military Council will tell all Egyptians to get back to work after the unrest that toppled Hosni Mubarak. Egypt's new military rulers will issue a warning on Sunday against anyone who creates "chaos and disorder", an army source said. The Higher Military Council will also ban meetings by labour unions or professional syndicates, effectively forbidding strikes, and tell all Egyptians to get back to work after the unrest that toppled Hosni Mubarak. Reuters "We gotta move these refrigerators, we gotta move these colour TV's"... There's pictures on my TV of soldiers beating protesters in the streets of Cairo as I'm clicking Add Reply...business as usual I guess. Sure didn't take long to get back to normal did it? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Its stems from over 30 years of providing military hardware and training. With providing a healthy acquisition budget for the Egyptian military (you know how much boys luv their toys) and the subsequent schmoozing to ensure that they spend those bucks on US approved military suppliers creates pretty strong relationships. Indeed, but it goes back much further than that. Also, it is a common misconception that US economic, military, and humanitarian aid comes in the way of a blank check to just go shopping anywhere, with or without US approval. That's not how it works. Then there is the cadre of trainers that accompany the hardware. then there are the lecturers at Egyptian military colleges and the exchange programs for Egyptian officers. Then there is the bi-annual Operation Bright Star the joint war games that started back in 1981. Yep...and don't leave out the Egyptian officers studying at American universities and war colleges. The Suez Canal is a strategic resource that both nations and other allies are interested in protecting for obvious reasons. this all adds up to the observation that the US and Egyptian military are tight. Agreed, as much of their modern kit is Western. Iran found out what happens when they run out of spare parts, and you can't buy them on eBay! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GWiz Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Posted February 13, 2011 What people also tend not to face up to is how fundamentally unsustainable our global economy is and that human beings will only put up with so much in the absence of opportunity not to mention basic needs and especially when they're under the thumb of a Mubarak. It's interesting times we live in all right. What better time than now given things like wikileaks and the low regard and suspicion human beings around the planet have for governments, politicians not to mention power and wealth in general? On top of everything else our economy demands of human beings, everyone also feels the thick moral imperative to provide for themselves weighing down from on high. Given the moral dissonance that must attend life under a corrupt bastard like Mubarak I can only marvel at the restrained patience of the Egyptians during this revolution. As for the next one, there, elsewhere and one day even here...I think that really depends on that moral imperative that keeps bearing down from on high. If it doesn't lighten up or better yet come clean, Egypt could just easily end up as a mere footnote in a far greater turning point in human history that's starting to dawn on the horizon. I pretty much agree except that it's not gonna change here ("western" civilizations) as long as there are gutless wonders in our countries that don't even vote nevermind take a stand like the people of Egypt and other countries in that region of the world... Maybe we need to follow Australia's example and make informed voting mandatory... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Posted February 13, 2011 You do realize that the military has been in charge since the overthrow of Farouk, don't you. You seem to think that the power structure i.e. relationship between government and military, is the same as in western countries. Not even close. The military's bread might be buttered by the US, but they could just as easily use oil (Saudis). Yep, and during that time the Soviet Union (Russia) suppied the military, not the U.S... The U.S. came into play post '91 with the fall of the Soviets and a lot changed in that the Military isn't the regime but only serve the regime... Plus it's a conscript Military not one that is populated by the regime's henchmen as in most ME Militaries... That's why it's the "police" and "security forces" that the public hates and not their brothers and fathers serving in the Egyptian Military... As for the Saudis, you do know that there's no love lost between Saudi Arabia and Egypt? The only way the Saudis would be involved is as a "funnel" for U.S. aid to prevent an entity like Iran stepping in... As long as the Egyptian Military "plays nice" it won't be a problem... This "revolution" has been cheap. As for human nature, over the years I have repeatedly witnessed the anger of a people being placated by a few cosmetic political and economic scraps with the foundation of the power structure they revolted against remaining in place. Well, I think different, I watched what happened in eastern Europe, and it's not that easy to put the toothpaste back in the tube... I think you are basing your conclusion on what you see in the U.S. and Canada where most people can be bought with a couple of hundred dollar tax cut... I don't think that the democracy that emerges from this is going to be anything like "western style". they are very aware of the advantages but their muslim upbringing also makes them very aware of the disadvantages and those will weigh more heavily in their political development. Well, I don't know if you know any muslim families, but I do, and I can tell you their "upbringing" isn't all that different than ours... What "disadvantages" are you referring to? Oh you mean, the small cadre of 325000 secret police, the thousands of officers in the military, the hundreds of top level bureaucrats, the hundreds of judges and lawyers, the business people who employ roughly 30% of the work force. Nah, you're right he didn't need many people to keep him in power over the 30 years. Mubarak didn't accumulate over 40 BILLION dollars by sharing it with his police and security... Nor did he pay his beaurocracy all that well either... More than the $2 a day the average labourer makes for sure but even $10 a day, which is probably what a "government employee" made, would be good pay but it doesn't buy a whole lot of loyalty for the regime... The police and "officials" made their money through bribes and corruption and not from Mubarak and his regime... Once that's gone those people will go into survival mode and nothing more... As for the Military they were probably well paid if for no other reason than Mubarak's survival to prevent them from overthrowing him but there again the Military isn't the regime and except for MAYBE a few of the top officers they have little incentive to be loyal to Mubarak when they KNOW it's the U.S. and not Mubarak that's going to keep paying the freight... Egypts Military is only as good as their equipment and that's 100% U.S.... Please learn some facts. The 1.3 billion in US military aid - (used to buy US weapons, not finance operations), is about 20% of what the Egyptians spend on their armed forces. Saudi Arabia has already stated that if the US cuts off the dough, they'll ante up, although I'd rather have the US as an ally than the Saudis. If we're talking FACTS you'll also know that the $1.3 Billion a year is a small fraction of what the U.S. and others, including Canada, gives to Egypt annually, then there's "trade", mostly with "the west" and western tourism, and the Suez Canal, yup, I'd say it's in Egypts best interest to stay very close to "the west", wouldn't you? What does the x Mubarak regime offer the Military OR to Egypt as a whole? And the small fry bureaucrats might have joined in the revolt (how do you know a significant number joined?) they are still tarred with the same corruption brush. No doubt corruption is a big problem that will need to be addressed, that's where "the west" might come into play by ensuring a "livable wage" is forthcoming for Egyptians... I think that may come about... Watching the network news stations I heard a number of people of all ages talking about changing that very thing, corruption, as part of what they want to eliminate in a new government... I'd hope so too. At this point hope is all one can do... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 .... Egypts Military is only as good as their equipment and that's 100% U.S.... No, that is not the case...not 100% Egypt's military is a hodge podge of American, other Western, Chinese, and ex-Soviet kit. The more modern hardware like F-16's, M60/M1 MBTs, patrol frigates, etc. are indeed American. If we're talking FACTS you'll also know that the $1.3 Billion a year is a small fraction of what the U.S. and others, including Canada, gives to Egypt annually, then there's "trade", mostly with "the west" and western tourism, and the Suez Canal, yup, I'd say it's in Egypts best interest to stay very close to "the west", wouldn't you? What does the x Mubarak regime offer the Military OR to Egypt as a whole? Agreed...this is not a geopolitical calamity except for the remaining "regimes" that can see the writing on the wall. Economic growth and political stability is a great deoderant. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Timothy17 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) I don't know, Gwiz and BC 2004 are the one's making the claim. I don't doubt the close association, I just have deep reservations about how kind and gentle they seem to think the Egpytian military will be as a result of it. Thank you for sharing that link to the Star article. It was most interesting. TY. Edited February 13, 2011 by Timothy17 Quote "Error has no rights." "Ab illo benedicaris in cuius honore cremaberis. Amen." - Pope Pius XI, blessing a Protestant minister upon his request. The blessing is the one used over incense in the Catholic Mass, and translates, "Mayest thou be blessed by Him in Whose honor thou art to be burnt. Amen."
Scotty Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) I already told you, I don't answer snipits of my posts... Address the whole post or don't bother, your choice... You have some kind of comprehension difficulty? By this post it sure seems that way... In any site like this many people make many posts. I, like others, might agree with some or much of the post, or consider it irrelevant or not worth addressing. I might wish only to discuss or clarify one or more points. Your 'all or nothing' demand is patently absurd. But evidently you are incapable of defending your point so I'll consider that you've forfeited on that. Egypt and Iran bear many similarities. Edited February 13, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Maybe we need to follow Australia's example and make informed voting mandatory... Australia makes voting mandatory. Nothing says it's informed. I would prefer to have uninformed, disinterested people NOT voting. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
GWiz Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Posted February 13, 2011 Egypt will soon become an Islamic socialist republic. The socialists and the Islamic fanatics are working together to destabilize the status quo. The Islamic fanatics and socialists both hate the western way of life and wish to see it destroyed. That is the only reason the socialists are working with the jihadists. We need to go over and kill them all now while they're disorganized. Bomb the hell out of Egypt destroy all their military equipment before it's too late. Egypt will soon team with Iran to conquer Israel to the delight of the socialists. Many of the NDP are antisemitic here in Canada and are vocal supporters of Hamas and Hezzbollah. Egypt has the 9th largest military in the world now and Iran has the 7th or so. These two will team up to push Israel into the sea. This is going to lead us into another world war. The writing is on the wall. Resident troll? Or ordinary racist? Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Posted February 13, 2011 Australia makes voting mandatory. Nothing says it's informed. I would prefer to have uninformed, disinterested people NOT voting. Wrong, has to be informed, you are asked about the candidates running... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
eyeball Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 I pretty much agree except that it's not gonna change here ("western" civilizations) as long as there are gutless wonders in our countries that don't even vote nevermind take a stand like the people of Egypt and other countries in that region of the world... Maybe we need to follow Australia's example and make informed voting mandatory... Informed by who though? The capacity to trust virtually any of our institutions of accountability is just about completely shot. This is reflected in things like the crisis of confidence in the financial sector, the RCMP and police in general, the sex scandals of the Catholic church and of course even science isn't immune in light of climate-gate. As I pointed out earlier this lack of faith is virtually global and it doesn't seem to matter what the local ideological bent may be. Look at the suspicion and acrimony people display around here for one another's sources of information. I honestly think it may be too late to turn things around in large parts of the world. There is just too much need for greed to stay ahead of and there's just not enough to go around for either's comfort zone. Making informed voting mandatory at this point would be like using a band-aid to close a chest-wall retractor wound. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 .... As I pointed out earlier this lack of faith is virtually global and it doesn't seem to matter what the local ideological bent may be. Now you're smarting up....ditch all that moral baggage and see things for what they are. Let the Dick Cheney in you come out and play! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Timothy17 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Resident troll? Or ordinary racist? As utterly speculative and apocalyptic as the OP was, I am not sure at what point anything even remotely racist is said in it. Can you demonstrate what part of that post is racist? Pax, Tim Quote "Error has no rights." "Ab illo benedicaris in cuius honore cremaberis. Amen." - Pope Pius XI, blessing a Protestant minister upon his request. The blessing is the one used over incense in the Catholic Mass, and translates, "Mayest thou be blessed by Him in Whose honor thou art to be burnt. Amen."
GWiz Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) Informed by who though? The capacity to trust virtually any of our institutions of accountability is just about completely shot. This is reflected in things like the crisis of confidence in the financial sector, the RCMP and police in general, the sex scandals of the Catholic church and of course even science isn't immune in light of climate-gate. As I pointed out earlier this lack of faith is virtually global and it doesn't seem to matter what the local ideological bent may be. Look at the suspicion and acrimony people display around here for one another's sources of information. I honestly think it may be too late to turn things around in large parts of the world. There is just too much need for greed to stay ahead of and there's just not enough to go around for either's comfort zone. Making informed voting mandatory at this point would be like using a band-aid to close a chest-wall retractor wound. Maybe... All I'm saying is that it's pretty impressive to see people laying their lives on the line in Egypt just to get the right to vote... All while living in a great country like Canada (I'm a very proud Canadian BTW) and seeing people totally uninterested in something like their Government and voting, something that greatly affects their daily lives... I think that's kinda sad... Ultimately one ends up getting bad governments running ones country and it's no ones fault but their own... In over 40 years of voting in every election (Fed., Prov., Mun.,) I've only voted for the winning candidate 5 times, the last one being in the last municipal election... But at least I've tried to put the best person running in my riding into office to represent me and what I believe in... I'm kinda proud of that... Edited February 13, 2011 by GWiz Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Jack Weber Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Resident troll? Or ordinary racist? Nope... Wannabe Fascist nutter dressing himslef up as a "right wing populist"... Mr.Falange (Canada) feels that Fascism has many positive qualities AND that Canada requires a Fascist revolt to rid this country of the "Socialist traitors"... He can disabuse me of that notion if he wishes,however,he did say those things back in the summer... Little seems to have changed... Ask him about his film career around the Gay Pride Parade...You'll love that one... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GostHacked Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Is suspending the constitution a good idea at this stage? Does that not set things up for ease of abuse? Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) Is suspending the constitution a good idea at this stage? Does that not set things up for ease of abuse? It does... It also allows the Egyptian military to get its ducks in a row and allow it's next leader/chosen one to look like a "democratic" replacement... Edited February 13, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
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