The Nature of Evil

cybercoma · February 16, 2011

As far as I know, atheists believe there is no God or gods/goddesses/deities.

Care to enlighten me then about what "anything" else they do believe in?

They don't believe that there is no God. They choose NOT to believe that there is a God. You don't believe in the absence of something.

In any case, what does believing in the existence of divinity have to do with beliefs about life's purpose and meaning?

cybercoma · February 16, 2011

Well Bonam, here's the logic of what you said.

You're born to eat. You eat to survive. You survive to reproduce. Then you die. Is that the meaning of your life?

I don't know what you mean by "hopelessly stunted." But if you imagine I'm a zealot, by definition I wouldn't be logical. But that's an ad hominem argument anyway, so we'll just ignore it.

Why did you conflate purpose and meaning when addressing his/her answer? I thought Bonam was pretty clear and you either mistakenly understood what (s)he said or you think it's ok to misattribute something to someone to attack their position. The latter is called a strawman fallacy, but you already know that since you're claiming Bonam was using an ad hominem.

Bonam · February 16, 2011

Which particular quote?

The one I quoted? :huh:

If you are an atheist you don't believe what you said.

I know quite well what I myself believe, thanks though.

If you think life has some value, then you're not an atheist.

Incorrect. I just don't fit into your erroneous and insulting perception of what an atheist is.

If you want to toss insults around, right back at you:

If you think life has some value, then you're not a Christian. After all, Christians think that killing someone good just sends them to a better place. So, nothing is lost when people die. Hence, to a Christian, life must have no value.

You're born to eat. You eat to survive. You survive to reproduce. Then you die. Is that the meaning of your life?

That is the general purpose of any lifeform. When it comes to meaning, humans, being sentient, intelligent, self-aware, and capable of abstract thought, can assign whatever meaning they want to their own existence. Some, like yourself, might make religion the most important part of their life, others politics, others family, others might make their main purpose to acquire wealth or fame and define the meaning of their life in those terms. Again, what meaning someone's life has is up to them.

In any case, what does believing in the existence of divinity have to do with beliefs about life's purpose and meaning?

Yeah I'm still trying to figure that out. I remember a conversation I had with a friend back in college who was deeply religious. He said his purpose in life was to spread the word of Christ. I suppose that from his perspective, perhaps he would have imagined that someone lacking that purpose would have had no meaning to their life.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Bonam

wyly · February 16, 2011

Hitler also had a mustache. His religion really had very little to do with his atrocities.

his personal religion(catholic) was irrelevant but the atrocities were religiously(christian) motivated...

lukin · February 16, 2011

his personal religion(catholic) was irrelevant but the atrocities were religiously(christian) motivated...

Oh really wyly.

Here is A quote from Hitler:

through the peasantry we shall be able to destroy Christianity.

I like proving you wrong wyly. You're too easy and predictable.

Edited February 16, 2011 by lukin

cybercoma · February 16, 2011

his personal religion(catholic) was irrelevant but the atrocities were religiously(christian) motivated...

They were motivated by Christianity? Hitler killed all sorts of "undesirables". Much of it was politically motivated and even the killing of the Jews had more to do with "Jew" as a race than a religion. Hitler's atrocities had very little, if anything at all to do with religion.

lukin · February 17, 2011

Wyly has proven with his above post that he knows very little about what "really" happens. Hitler's atrocities were religiously motivated? That may be one of the most idiotic statements made on this forum....next to his brilliant post about the generals of "Mirimar". Give it up wyly. :rolleyes:

Jack Weber · February 17, 2011

hitlers persecution of jews wasn't faith based?...that's just another attempt of christians to distance themselves from times when their religious beliefs go so wrong...that slant has been promoted many times by the christian right, "hitler was socialist pagan or atheist"...while he was in fact a right wing catholic who was responsible for the largest ethnic/religious cleansing ever known...

I doubt I could be counted as a memeber of the "Religious Right",but I am a Christian at heart...

I'm also a keen student if history,and as it relates to the "religiosity" of Adolph Hitler,you are completely wrong.

It is true that Hitler was a nominal Catholic,that certainly does'nt mean he was a devout Catholic.I'm quite certain he was'nt...

What Adolph Hitler was a devout member of was the Thule Society...As early as 1918,in fact...Anti-Christian pagans...In other words,your kinda crowd....

You should look 'em up...

betsy · February 17, 2011

They don't believe that there is no God. They choose NOT to believe that there is a God. You don't believe in the absence of something.

You mean you don’t believe in nothing.

Oh yes you must! IF you are an atheist.

Remember my “Nothing” post in Creation?

Quentin Smith stated in 1993 that the only rational explanation for the beginning of the universe is that it came “from nothing, by nothing, and for nothing.” Later, in 2006, Daniel Dennett proclaimed that the universe created itself. This must mean either that the universe existed before it existed, which of course is absurd, or that it was created from nothing...

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17897&st=135

Cybercoma:
In any case, what does believing in the existence of divinity have to do with beliefs about life's purpose and meaning?

Who said anything about divinity? All I ‘m doing is follow the logic of the atheistic belief....their belief that we came from nothing. That we exist simply by pure chance.

That is the general purpose of any lifeform. When it comes to meaning, humans, being sentient, intelligent, self-aware, and capable of abstract thought, can assign whatever meaning they want to their own existence. Some, like yourself, might make religion the most important part of their life, others politics, others family, others might make their main purpose to acquire wealth or fame and define the meaning of their life in those terms. Again, what meaning someone's life has is up to them.

To sum up the atheistic belief: the world came from nothing (pure chance), by nothing (no Creator), and for nothing (no purpose, meaningless).

If you believe that life has a value, then you are not consistent with atheism.

Edited February 17, 2011 by betsy

cybercoma · February 17, 2011

You mean you don’t believe in nothing.

Oh yes you must! IF you are an atheist.

Remember my “Nothing” post in Creation?

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17897&st=135

Who said anything about divinity? All I ‘m doing is follow the logic of the atheistic belief....their belief that we came from nothing. That we exist simply by pure chance.

To sum up the atheistic belief: the world came from nothing (pure chance), by nothing (no Creator), and for nothing (no purpose, meaningless).

If you believe that life has a value, then you are not consistent with atheism.

I'm sure this will either go straight over your head or you'll just choose to ignore it like everything else that's posted.

First of all, atheists do not believe in nothing. They simply don't believe in a divine presence.

Secondly, beliefs about the beginning of the world can be various with atheists. Atheism has nothing to do with the beginning of the world. Scientists on the other hand don't know. That doesn't mean it came from nothing. There are different theories out there, but no one knows. That, my dear, is the difference between you and others. I'm ok with saying that I don't know how the universe or life began. You, however, believe you already have the answer without an iota of proof. That's fine if you want to believe that, but don't tell me that I'm wrong for saying "I don't know" when you can't prove to me that there is a right answer. And do NOT try to tell me that children should be taught your beliefs in school, just because you believe them.

Finally, stop saying that atheists believe there is no value to life. Once again, atheists have all different beliefs about many different things. I can tell you about myself, but not the next atheist that shows up in the thread. For me, the value in life is that I'm alive. The conditions were such that out of billions upon billions of possibilities and the billions of preconditions that needed to exist, I am the result. Here I am with a finite amount of time on earth, so I had better make the most out of that time and try to leave an environment for future generations to make the most out of their time here, since there time is also finite. I don't believe my reward is in heaven. I don't require the threat of suffering in the afterlife to be moral and altruistic. The threat to not being altruistic is living in a time and a place where people are not altruistic to one another. The threat is creating suffering in the here and now. I don't want to suffer, so I try not to make others suffer. Life is precious because it is incredibly rare to begin with and at any point it can be extinguished. So, please... stop telling me what to believe and what you think I believe because you're wrong on both accounts.

wyly · February 17, 2011

I doubt I could be counted as a memeber of the "Religious Right",but I am a Christian at heart...

I'm also a keen student if history,and as it relates to the "religiosity" of Adolph Hitler,you are completely wrong.

It is true that Hitler was a nominal Catholic,that certainly does'nt mean he was a devout Catholic.I'm quite certain he was'nt...

What Adolph Hitler was a devout member of was the Thule Society...As early as 1918,in fact...Anti-Christian pagans...In other words,your kinda crowd....

You should look 'em up...

absolute bullshite right out a conspirators nut job handbook, in other words your kinda crowd and pliny's and simples and shady's, you get the picture...hitler was born raised and died a roman catholic, a christian...the laughable thule theory is just another pathetic christian apologists attempt to distance themselves from a fellow christians freak show...

before claiming to be a keen student of history :lol: try cracking a real history book or two and not the writings of wacko extremists from fantasy land...

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice". A- Hitler

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." - A Hitler

"The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today." –Adolf Hitler

"Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide." (Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer page 95-96)

he was christian and as far to the right as it's possible to be...

Edited February 17, 2011 by wyly

Jack Weber · February 17, 2011

absolute bullshite right out a conspirators nut job handbook, in other words your kinda crowd and pliny's and simples and shady's, you get the picture...hitler was born raised and died a roman catholic, a christian...the laughable thule theory is just another pathetic christian apologists attempt to distance themselves from a fellow christians freak show...

before claiming to be a keen student of history try cracking a real history book or two and not the writings of wacko extremists from fantasy land...

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice". A- Hitler

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." - A Hitler

"The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today." –Adolf Hitler

"Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide." (Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer page 95-96)

he was christian and as far to the right as it's possible to be...

What's really disgusting,and quite sad,is that you would use the quotes of one of the last centiry's greatest liars and murderers to justify your own hatred of God...

Hitler,himself,was'nt a Thule member..But many of his disciple were.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why he never stopped them and why Hitler admitted he ahd no real attachment ot he Catholic Church???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society

http://www.crystalinks.com/thule.html

Sorry Charlie...Thule markings and theory are all over the NAZI party...

Edited February 17, 2011 by Jack Weber

Mr.Canada · February 17, 2011

The Muslim religion is full of evil. They behead people for free thought. Tell me that isn't evil. Oh no I forgot , that's multiculturalism and needs to be protected and celebrated.

GostHacked · February 17, 2011

The Muslim religion is full of evil. They behead people for free thought. Tell me that isn't evil. Oh no I forgot , that's multiculturalism and needs to be protected and celebrated.

As long as they take you out and leave me alone, I'm ok with that.

wyly · February 17, 2011

What's really disgusting,and quite sad,is that you would use the quotes of one of the last centiry's greatest liars and murderers to justify your own hatred of God...

so the man's own words are to be ignored but opinions of the wacko world are to be accepted? :rolleyes:

Have you ever stopped to wonder why he never stopped them and why Hitler admitted he ahd no real attachment ot he Catholic Church???

I can accept history on it's face value you feel a need to make shit up because you live in this weird conspiracy world ...and here I had pegged as one of the sane members of MLW :lol:

Hitler,himself,was'nt a Thule member..But many of his disciple were.jack weber

geez jackie that's not what you posted before...are you having trouble keeping your history/fantasy facts in order?

What Adolph Hitler was a devout member of was the Thule Society-jack weber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society
http://www.crystalinks.com/thule.html

wiki as a legitimate source that'll get you an automatic rejection for a history paper from any university in canada...

crystallinks a metaphysics website, prophecies and UFO's !!! :rolleyes: oh my you're really desperate, just as with the wiki source a history paper with that source would be rejected as invalid...

Sorry Charlie...Thule markings and theory is all over the NAZI party...

sorry shady/jackie... a keen student of history you're not, a follower of the wacko conspiracy world without a doubt...get back to me when find a legitimate source not crap straight out of the script of a Steven Spielberg movie...

hitler was right-wing roman catholic, a christian...

Edited February 17, 2011 by wyly

betsy · February 17, 2011

Once again, atheists have all different beliefs about many different things. I can tell you about myself, but not the next atheist that shows up in the thread.

You make it sound like a fad....

Atkins diet, low-carb-high protein, All-protein diet....everyone just jumping in on the bandwagon with the goal of achieving weight-loss, yet overlooking the fact that it's not just the diet...it's a change in lifestyle.

You make it sound like....Christian religion.

With all the different denomination....different interpretation. All proclaiming to be Christians....and yet overlooking the fact that to be a Christian, we have to believe and follow the teachings of Christ.

So you're saying atheistic beliefs comes in different shades. Most of what I've read lean closer to Agnosticism, actually. Some of the ad hominem statements by some posters who I just ignore seems to be repeating the usual mantra...more to convince themselves than to engage in a discussion.

There seems to be a confusion for some, or they cannot even explain their position. It must still be there..."abstract" in their minds.

What is a true atheist?

Edited February 17, 2011 by betsy

WIP · February 17, 2011

The Muslim religion is full of evil. They behead people for free thought. Tell me that isn't evil. Oh no I forgot , that's multiculturalism and needs to be protected and celebrated.

Yeah, all billion and a half Muslims behead people....or is that a slight exaggeration? Good thing Christians never do evil....like fire laser-guided bombs at unsuspecting villages.

betsy · February 17, 2011

Cybercoma,

Please know that I don't mean to insult you. But we are engaged in a discussion about atheists/atheism.

I am presenting my argument.

Anyway, I only touched a portion of your latest reply....I have to go. Maybe will post more later.

WIP · February 17, 2011

I am saying that atheist cannot consistently claim the distinction between right and wrong. Take note that I stressed on the word "consistently."

As if that makes any difference. You can't consistently claim a distinction between right and wrong either. Try! For every example you can find of a divine just rule, I can give you a scenario where that rule would lead to dire consequences.

Atheist believe that we exists by sheer chance. There is no purpose. Our existence has no meaning. Therefore, life has no value.

No, we (or at least most of us) believe we find meaning and purpose in our own lives. It's not something that already exists in the Universe, and it's not something that is handed down to us from above.

Anyway psycopaths was given as an example...hence I say again:
Who's to say that psychoanalysis is right? It's not provable.

If you actually read anything about the subject, people with antisocial personality disorders tend to believe in rule-based ethics....just like you do. They lack the ability to use empathy as a guide to decide the right course of action where there are no convenient rules to apply. So, they are more likely to be fundamentalists than atheists!

eyeball · February 17, 2011

Atheist believe there is no meaning and value in life, and so can't consistently claim the distinction between right and wrong.

I think the value of life is rendered even more precious by the realization that it's so rare, short, and completely over when it's over.

Mr.Canada · February 17, 2011

Yeah, all billion and a half Muslims behead people....or is that a slight exaggeration? Good thing Christians never do evil....like fire laser-guided bombs at unsuspecting villages.

I don't trust any of them. I tell them in Arabic when I see them " I will never submit". As the very word Islam means submission and not peace as is often told to us. It's a religion of submission not peace. The end goal of Islam is to take over the world having one world religion and one world leader. Look it up if you don't believe me.

I will fight them to the end, Islamic sleeper cells are in Canada and they have the rest of you fooled. The socialist end of the alliance is doing its job for sure.

cybercoma · February 17, 2011

You make it sound like a fad....

Atkins diet, low-carb-high protein, All-protein diet....everyone just jumping in on the bandwagon with the goal of achieving weight-loss, yet overlooking the fact that it's not just the diet...it's a change in lifestyle.

You make it sound like....Christian religion.

With all the different denomination....different interpretation. All proclaiming to be Christians....and yet overlooking the fact that to be a Christian, we have to believe and follow the teachings of Christ.

So you're saying atheistic beliefs comes in different shades. Most of what I've read lean closer to Agnosticism, actually. Some of the ad hominem statements by some posters who I just ignore seems to be repeating the usual mantra...more to convince themselves than to engage in a discussion.

There seems to be a confusion for some, or they cannot even explain their position. It must still be there..."abstract" in their minds.

What is a true atheist?

There are no denominations of atheism. Atheism has no unifying set of beliefs. In fact, and I know you absolutely refuse to accept this, atheism is not a belief system. It's the rejection of belief systems involving divinity.

DogOnPorch · February 17, 2011

Where on the Ark were these kept?

How about these?

The two fossil skeletons are estimated to be seperated in time by about 50-60 million years.

Jonsa · February 17, 2011

Where on the Ark were these kept?

How about these?

The two fossil skeletons are estimated to be seperated in time by about 50-60 million years.

that's a whole other thread.

Jonsa · February 17, 2011

There are no denominations of atheism. Atheism has no unifying set of beliefs. In fact, and I know you absolutely refuse to accept this, atheism is not a belief system. It's the rejection of belief systems involving divinity.

Atheism is a belief system with a single "unifying" belief which is the rejection of a diety/creator/supernatural being. Considering that there are a variety of athiestic philosophies you could say there are denominations.