Raising the US debt ceiling

Sir Bandelot · August 6, 2011

The anti-Americanism that existed wasn't because Americans elected Bush - and the attitude prevailing today proves it. Americans elected the loved-by-the-world Obama, yet now we take flack for that, too. And anti-Americanism still exists. It wasn't anti-Bush/blame the Americans for electing him. It was anti-Americanism. And as I said, it's a lesson learned on my part.

It's not surprising and I don't think it's purely based on anti-Americanism. It's the foreign policy. People wanted to believe what Obama was saying during his campaign. People want positive change. Obama was going to shut down Gitmo, reach out to others around the world and try to reconcile differences without the immediate military response. He was supposed to roll back all the things that president Bush did that so many liberals disapproved of. But, once elected Mr. Obama, if he ever really intended to do those things must have come up against that wall. Whatever his excuse, all the people in the world who hoped he would live up to his word are now disappointed. Obama did try to do some positive things but he was thwarted, and finally he capitulated to the party that still supports those ideas of GWB. And Obama is not such a believer in solving problems by peaceful means. He maintains the same aggressive posturing, and the war grinds on. He has favoured politics over justice. We can argue about my criticisms here but the main point is, this is why people wanted to like him and why they don't like him now. He didn't change things much.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Sir Bandelot

Michael Hardner · August 6, 2011

Some charts:

http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/yet-more-charts-that-should-go-with-debt-discussions/243144/

Interesting that the arguments made in Greece and the US are similar, yet the situations so different.

August 6, 2011

It's not surprising and I don't think it's purely based on anti-Americanism. It's the foreign policy.

This goes right along with what I was saying - "it's the foreign policy." Let's say it's true. Let's say the U.S. is the worst nation in the history of the world. Let's give ya'll that, in spite of the reality. The "it's the foreign policy" mindset is comparable to that of a kid who criticizes a bully - while happily/contentedly chomping on a sandwich that the bully took from someone else. Oh yes. So much better.

Talk about hypocritical.

punked · August 6, 2011

The reason why he was so successful in predicting future events is the same reason why he wants a gold standard. It's his understanding of Austrian economics and the business cycle.

Tell me more about how this understanding of the business cycle works in relation to a forced return to a gold standard which lead to some of the highest unemployment in post world war Britain. It also lead to prices in Britain being 10% higher then the rest of the world. It also made it so other countries could cause a credit crunch in the country at all by with drawing their gold reserves as France did when they though Britain was getting to involved with Poland. That credit crunch lead to even higher unemployment in Britain and caused higher inflation do to a collapse of the Pound. How is tying the credit your country has to what comes out of the ground a good thing? Your government can't lend business because their aren't enough gold mines? Even if they want to because you have fixed all monetary money flow to gold.

Seriously the only people who think gold is a good idea are people who don't know anything about Economics and repeat what Ron Paul says. Churchill said the worst decision he ever made was a return to the gold standard. Explain it to me please.

Sir Bandelot · August 6, 2011

This goes right along with what I was saying - "it's the foreign policy." Let's say it's true. Let's say the U.S. is the worst nation in the history of the world. Let's give ya'll that, in spite of the reality. The "it's the foreign policy" mindset is comparable to that of a kid who criticizes a bully - while happily/contentedly chomping on a sandwich that the bully took from someone else. Oh yes. So much better.

Talk about hypocritical.

Perhaps. But given a choice, we want to get our food from someone nice. Most of all we want a system where no one has to suffer unwillingly in order for us to get our share.

The problem is in how our opposition to war-loving hawks is expressed. "Americans, damn them, they're screwing everything up" shouldn't condemn all Americans. But there is no alternate word convenient to substitute, and seeing as these actions are promoted by the government which represents a country, it just becomes easier to say "Americans". It is right to oppose that kind of thinking.

We who oppose war in principle know that there are good people in the United States too, and we see the same struggle going on within their borders. Sadly, the majority rules and the vast majority are not able to see it, or don't really care, as long as they keep getting their "sandwich". That might change soon. It's changing in places around the world now, even in Israel.

What we need is our own awakening.

Bonam · August 6, 2011

It's changing in places around the world now, even in Israel.

Haha, the pics in that article cracked me up. Israeli protests: some people relaxing in a portable pool, and a dude working on his laptop in a tent. Compare that to Arab protests

Sir Bandelot · August 6, 2011

Haha, the pics in that article cracked me up. Israeli protests: some people relaxing in a portable pool, and a dude working on his laptop in a tent. Compare that to Arab protests

Haha, yeah. I don't think they're, you know going crazy in their protests or something. But I've noticed when protests take place amongst our own, we tend to downplay it in the media a lot more. All it takes is a picture.

Bonam · August 6, 2011

Haha, yeah. I don't think they're, you know going crazy in their protests or something. But I've noticed when protests take place amongst our own, we tend to downplay it in the media a lot more. All it takes is a picture.

I dunno, I don't feel like the G20 protests or the Vancouver hockey riots were particularly downplayed. The full ugliness of the situations was beaten to death in the media.

Scotty · August 6, 2011

The Americans elect their government.............

Yes, and the ultimate problem is the American people are economic illiterates who don't understand the first thing about finance and are constantly demanding high services and low taxes. Worse, you have one party which is constantly trying to fulfill the one demand, and another party constantly trying to fulfill the other.

I have a feeling that if the tax rate was lowered to 1% Americans would still be gnashing their teeth and pulling out their hair and demanding lower taxes, and if asked by pollsters would still angrily insist they pay the highest taxes on the planet.

You keep on with borrowing and borrowing, happily dumping trillions and trillions of dollars in debt on your kids shoulders so you don't have to pay enough in taxes to support the programs and policies you insist on. Grow up, morons.

Scotty · August 6, 2011

Not only is Obama fever over, but apparently Americans were stupid for electing him. I remember the good ol' "we don't hate America, we hate Bush and company" days. Now I see we can just fill-in-the-blank with the current president, regardless......

Canadians don't say Americans were stupid for electing Obama. They say they're stupid for electing Republicans.

Scotty · August 6, 2011

Maybe some Canadians saw Obama as a beacon of hope especially when considered in the context of the Bush Administration.

Almost anyone would have been. But then Americans went and voted in a pack of backwoods Republican 'tards who made it almost impossible to govern.

Scotty · August 6, 2011

Some charts:

http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/yet-more-charts-that-should-go-with-debt-discussions/243144/

Interesting that the arguments made in Greece and the US are similar, yet the situations so different.

And yet Americans will tell you, in all seriousness, that their taxes are way too high now, and that increasing taxes would simply destroy the economy. When you suggest to them that Germans pay far more in taxes, get far better 'entitlement's and yet have a booming economy with low unemployment and high manufacturing, they'll just shut it out because it doesn't blend in with their weirdass mindset.

bush_cheney2004 · August 6, 2011

Perhaps. But given a choice, we want to get our food from someone nice. Most of all we want a system where no one has to suffer unwillingly in order for us to get our share.

But Canadians do have a choice, and it keeps choosing America....economically...politically...and culturally. This is the source of the underlying resentment, and as described by AW, it extends far beyond the policies of George Bush. America is the same as it ever was...and President Obama is a very American president. He is not a king...you know what we do to them.

The problem is in how our opposition to war-loving hawks is expressed. "Americans, damn them, they're screwing everything up" shouldn't condemn all Americans. But there is no alternate word convenient to substitute, and seeing as these actions are promoted by the government which represents a country, it just becomes easier to say "Americans". It is right to oppose that kind of thinking.

Then oppose it with actions...not words. Fault your own government and economy for being absolutely complicit in the policies of US administrations, past, present, and future. That is where like minded Canadians have power, not just wishing for votes in US elections.

We who oppose war in principle know that there are good people in the United States too, and we see the same struggle going on within their borders. Sadly, the majority rules and the vast majority are not able to see it, or don't really care, as long as they keep getting their "sandwich".

This is an American choice and process...it can't / won't be abandoned just because it doesn't go the way of the minority in country, and most certainly not the minority in another.

What we need is our own awakening.

Correct...in Canada...start there if you really believe these things instead of waiting and wishing for changes in America.

Moonlight Graham · August 6, 2011

Other credit agencies have maintained the AAA rating for now. That being said, its time for lower credit ratings. The anomalously low interest rates that have prevailed for the last few years are not sustainable and need to go up. Borrowing needs to have a real cost.

But the solution to a debt-caused financial bomb is more debt!

Bonam · August 6, 2011

But the solution to a debt-caused financial bomb is more debt!

Negative.

bush_cheney2004 · August 6, 2011

... When you suggest to them that Germans pay far more in taxes, get far better 'entitlement's and yet have a booming economy with low unemployment and high manufacturing, they'll just shut it out because it doesn't blend in with their weirdass mindset.

Yep, especially when your German time horizon is only two years.

punked · August 6, 2011

Yep, especially when your German time horizon is only two years.

I have no idea what this means Germany has been the leader in Europe in Manufacturing and exports for like 100 years now.

bush_cheney2004 · August 6, 2011

I have no idea what this means Germany has been the leader in Europe in Manufacturing and exports for like 100 years now.

Check Germany's historical unemployment rates and GDP per-capita, which presently trails both the US and Canada. BMW now has plants in US right-to-work states.

WIP · August 6, 2011

What's surprising is how much Canadians cared about who we elected in the first place - "another country's leader."

And why should that be surprising to you? Or is it really surprising, any more than it's surprising to bushcheney...who has nothing else to talk about?

We've been over the main reasons why Canadians keep plugged in to American culture and politics many times (many of us live close to the U.S. border, so it's impossible to ignore), and the size of the U.S. economy, and the way our governments have increasingly allowed our economy to be set up for U.S. branch plant operations, makes whatever happens in the U.S. of great economic importance to Canada.

And when it comes to culture - likely the second most lucrative U.S. export, just after weapons of war - when the era of instant worldwide communications began in the 1960's, with the advent of TV and more importantly - satellite uplinks, TV programming, music and movies became hugely lucrative commercial properties that could be sold worldwide...even to non-English-speaking audiences; so Canada, along with most other nations protectionist steps to preserve their own arts and culture, which are threatened by "free trade" rules. Most of my news channels on my sat TV package are U.S., so when they decide that the murder case of ONE white girl is THE STORY, it's almost impossible to ignore the damn sideshow even if you're living in Canada!

But, economics and culture are too easy and obvious - I'll give you a reason why a small farsighted few are looking on what's happening to the U.S. with great trepidation - climate change is real and it's already having economic consequences. This may be a news story to rightwing fools in denial, who have their heads buried in the sand, but the consequences of the overheating of the tropics is already causing migrations and famines in Africa, and will reverberate around the world to the more prosperous regions also. In the U.S., the longterm prognosis for U.S. agriculture is cataclysmic! That may sound alarmist, but there's no other way to say it. The Southwest is drying out and will turn to desert under current longterm trends, and there is not enough rivers or groundwater to sustain current levels of grain production. So, what does this mean for Canada? Well, Canada just happens to have the good fortune of being one of the regions of the world where fresh water is abundant and plentiful; and climate projections so far show most of Canada will not be as adversely affected by areas to our south. Connecting the dots means that a large, underpopulated, resource-rich nation like Canada can look forward to American and possibly Chinese and other invasions....so where's our border fence? I don't think most Canadians will think about the prospects of mass refugee invasions until it's too late!

As I said, Obama had higher approval ratings outside the U.S. than within - and the world cheered when Obama won. Gone were the days of Bush - Americans were redeemed. Americans per se weren't hated - it was Bush and company that was hated, and Americans by extension for voting for him.
So THAT'S what I was obviously referring to in my post - and it has nothing to do with Obama's "approval rating" in the U.S. And it's a lesson learned. The anti-Americanism that existed wasn't because Americans elected Bush - and the attitude prevailing today proves it. Americans elected the loved-by-the-world Obama, yet now we take flack for that, too. And anti-Americanism still exists. It wasn't anti-Bush/blame the Americans for electing him. It was anti-Americanism. And as I said, it's a lesson learned on my part.

Well, back to normal politics - I don't know what Obama's poll rating are right now here in Canada, or Europe, Latin America, or Asia and Africa, but I'll go out on a limb and predict that he's already in George Bush territory. Obama's poll ratings are likely higher in the U.S. than they are anywhere except for a few stooge regimes that are dependent on U.S. aid.

When it comes to issues, most Americans aren't aware of what the most important issues are even inside their own country because U.S. MSM is in the pocket of a few corporations and won't let their people talk about them! What passes for journalism in commercial U.S. media is crap, pure and simple. They present conservative message that's designed to reinforce the 'no taxes on billionaires', 'unions are bad', 'gut all non-military infrastructure spending' - and for an opposing viewpoint, they have a corporate liberal who invariably calls for tolerance and moderation of the right's gangster capitalism approach, but doesn't challenge the basic framework that is constantly reinforced by big-business rightwing spokesmen.

Here's what the rest of the world knows about Obama, that the average American doesn't know - Candidate Obama received the vast bulk of his campaign donations from major corporate donors including the major Wall Street investment banks like Goldman Sachs - is it any surprise that Goldman alumni are in the top economic cabinet positions, or that Lloyd Blankfein was reportedly at the table when the discussions about securities reforms were going on? President Obama has ramped up the war on drugs policies and incarcerated more people than Bush; he's even given ICE a more aggressive policy of arrests and deportations than Bush; he has more aggressively pursued "free trade" agreements than Bush; he supported the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Honduras by the military that installed a more U.S. friendly regime; he is even worse than Bush when it comes to illegal surveillance, secret prisons, charging a Pentagon whistleblower with espionage etc. - most journalists covering civil liberties issues from Glenn Greenwald to Jeremy Scahill conclude that Obama's administration is worse on these issues than the Bush Administration....and then there are all the wars, and the undeclared wars - Libya, Yemen, Bahrain, which either have direct U.S. involvement or covert support of brutal mid-east dictators facing uprisings. So, most of the world knows alot more about President Obama and the way the U.S. system of government actually works than the average American does.

And many issues are completely off the table, and off the radar for the average America, and I'll give you one current example - ALEC - the secretive organization where big business lobbyists and politicians, most of whom are at state and local level, all get together to discuss strategy and campaign donations and other perks I presume. This has apparently been around for years, and it's where 'the sausage is made' as they say about the U.S. legislative process. It's something every American should know about, but few are aware of because of deliberate omission by MSM.

I just did a quick search on both google and yahoo to see what comes up, and after wikipedia, the links go to ALEC watchdog groups, ALEC stealth propaganda sites designed to minimize the negatives of what they do, and then to the progressive blogosphere and alternative media: thinkprogress, alternet, the nation, firedoglake, sourcewatch, daily kos, common dreams, democracynow, and after the first three pages of useful links they start going screwy and linking to Alec Baldwin or some other stupid topic. Fox News hasn't reported on this issue for some reason!

punked · August 6, 2011

Check Germany's historical unemployment rates and GDP per-capita, which presently trails both the US and Canada. BMW now has plants in US right-to-work states.

Germany has had Historical problems alright. GDP per capita is a mislead figure because when East and West Germany combined East Germany had nothing. In fact given what Germany has done over the last 20 years is amazing when we actually look at its history. Mind you I would not want to live there, I love Canada but lets not pretend there weren't outside historical factors.

bush_cheney2004 · August 6, 2011

....When it comes to issues, most Americans aren't aware of what the most important issues are even inside their own country because U.S. MSM is in the pocket of a few corporations and won't let their people talk about them! What passes for journalism in commercial U.S. media is crap, pure and simple.

This is just another example of you projecting a personal agenda and interest that reaches into another country because it is easy to do so instead of China, India, or Brazil. Most Americans aren't aware because they don't care or are otherwise busy living their lives in their own country, not obsessing about what goes on elsewhere. By your own admission, you get most of your "crap" and "journalism" from US media outlets, so clearly it is available to Americans who seek it out. Even your anti-Americanisms are imported from....America.

WIP · August 6, 2011

But the solution to a debt-caused financial bomb is more debt!

The U.S. will have to raise the debt ceiling to pay for current obligations; the question then might be are they going to actually be able to do the actual borrowing, or will money have to be created magically and risk fueling inflation if U.S. bond holders start selling out.

The silver lining in this story may be that it just have to get serious about taking the axe to the Pentagon and the rest of the military-industrial complex that is no longer affordable. And, the bullshit meme that low taxes on the rich stimulates economic growth can be deep-sixed for good. The public may start paying attention and be a lot more supportive of raising tax rates on the highest income earners - especially low taxes on investment income, making corporations pay and stop allowing U.S. corporations to hide the bulk of their profits by creating fake HQ's in the Cayman Islands and other tax scam shelters, and they can even start by taxing corporate jets...that one which all of the fiscally conservative Republicans balked on for obvious reasons, is a no-brainer that would easily have wide public support.

WIP · August 6, 2011

This is just another example of you projecting a personal agenda and interest that reaches into another country because it is easy to do so instead of China, India, or Brazil. Most Americans aren't aware because they don't care or are otherwise busy living their lives in their own country, not obsessing about what goes on elsewhere. By your own admission, you get most of your "crap" and "journalism" from US media outlets, so clearly it is available to Americans who seek it out. Even your anti-Americanisms are imported from....America.

When I want to learn some actual information about something, I'll go to Op-Ed News, Truthdig, DemocracyNow, or Alternet, before I'd consider taking the word of one of your favourite sources!

bush_cheney2004 · August 6, 2011

Germany has had Historical problems alright. GDP per capita is a mislead figure because when East and West Germany combined East Germany had nothing. In fact given what Germany has done over the last 20 years is amazing when we actually look at its history. Mind you I would not want to live there, I love Canada but lets not pretend there weren't outside historical factors.

That's all I'm saying....Germany obviously is not and certainly has not been an economic or political utopia, and holding it out as a great example is problematic. A "Golden Decade" only lasts ten years.

bush_cheney2004 · August 6, 2011

When I want to learn some actual information about something, I'll go to Op-Ed News, Truthdig, DemocracyNow, or Alternet, before I'd consider taking the word of one of your favourite sources!

Doesn't matter...you will still go American more than not. Your world is dominated by Americana at many different levels by your own pathetic admission, and that does not apply to everyone else. No wonder you hate the place while being so dependent on it by your own choice.