Jack Weber Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 Why pick on the little people? Vladimir Putin is alleged to be the wealthiest man on the planet with his tens of billions in ill-gotten gains. And his fortune grows every year. The same Putin that Goober Bush look into his eyes and saw his soul? The same KGB thug who has rigged himslef into a "President...er...(largely ceremonial )Prime Minister position in the Kremlin? The same Russia we abandoned during its nascent democracy so that now it's run by oligarchs,Fascists,and,organized criminals? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Scotty Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 The same Putin that Goober Bush look into his eyes and saw his soul? The same KGB thug who has rigged himslef into a "President...er...(largely ceremonial )Prime Minister position in the Kremlin? The same Russia we abandoned during its nascent democracy so that now it's run by oligarchs,Fascists,and,organized criminals? Yes, that would be the one. So? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Jack Weber Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 Yes, that would be the one. So? So? I can assume by that response that you have no problem with Fascist/Authoritatrian dictators? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Scotty Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 I apologize for not giving this post the attention it deserves but I've spent considerable time trying to reply only to have it erased twice by Internet Explorer. Apparently if you accidentally hit the back button or some such everything you've written is now gone. I finally downloaded and installed Firefox. But from their point of view, they'd rather have an obedient leader in that region than a non-obedient one. If that means preferring a tyrant over a democrat, they will do so without qualms. I would say they do have qualms which is evidenced by their efforts at moderating those autocrats they support. I point out that you can't have a "people's revolution" in truly totalitarian regimes because those regimes are too oppressive for such a thing to ever get under way, much less continue. All the people demonstrating in Egypt today would be long dead or in prison if they tried this in Iran or China or Syria. I don't consider them naive at all. No other world powers that I'm aware of have ever tried to institute democratic regimes in areas of the world they control - nor tolerated them, for that matter. You don't see the French bothering with such niceties in the African countries they control. And you certainly don't see the Chinese worrying about it as they begin to exert their own international muscle. So what of it? What was the East Timorese threat that justified material and diplomatic support for one of the worst acts of state terrorism in the post-war era? I've never heard of any. The US and other western powers concerns themselves more with ideological movements than specific little national opposition groups. If the Timorese were seen as likely to be a part of the "global communist movement" the US would have tolerated almost any abuse to resist them. Today, the global ideological movement the west fights against most strongly is Islamism, and so they're more likely to support totalitarian regimes in Muslim countries to resist that. I appreciate you spelling this out, and I understand. Did you feel the same way about Saddam Hussein? About any of the killers we've gone to war with? What's the fundamental distinction? I don't think the question arises very often. But personally, I would say a difference would be how intrussive and oppressive a regime is in the daily lives of its people, how repressive and just plain cruel it is to its political opponents, or those they see as in some way transgressing against the regime. In that light, Egypt wasn't that bad compared to Hussein, or for that matter, the Chinese or Iranians or Libyans. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 So? I can assume by that response that you have no problem with Fascist/Authoritatrian dictators? Do I need to point out what they say about "assume"? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Jack Weber Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 Do I need to point out what they say about "assume"? No... However,you need to clarify your "So?" response... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Scotty Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 No... However,you need to clarify your "So?" response... The response was that I don't know what you're getting at. I'm not denying anything you said, just not sure how it is a response to what I said before, unless it was a rhetorical response. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Jack Weber Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 The response was that I don't know what you're getting at. I'm not denying anything you said, just not sure how it is a response to what I said before, unless it was a rhetorical response. Ah... I was getting at the fact that Mr.Putin is a dictatorial Crypto-Fascist thug who has positioned himslef as president for life under the guise of democracy and a shadow man... I guess I'm in total agreement with you... I also find it interesting that the world powers on that side are beginning to line up(Russia and China) in a military fashion.Over the last few years there have been many joint Sino/Russian military war games excercises and it's fairly well known that both of those countries are involved with the Iranian nuclear program. As this relates to what's going on in Egypt,and the rest of the Arab world...Sadly,I have little hope for representative democracy in the region. Yemen will be an Islamofascist lost cause in short order... Egypt will take a little longer,however,it'll end up the same way... Tunisia will go the same way... This will assist,and most likely embolden,the Iranians in there nuclear weapon aspirations.Those aspirations quietly cheered on from the sidelines by the Chinese and Russians... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Scotty Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 As this relates to what's going on in Egypt,and the rest of the Arab world...Sadly,I have little hope for representative democracy in the region. Yemen will be an Islamofascist lost cause in short order... Egypt will take a little longer,however,it'll end up the same way... Tunisia will go the same way... This will assist,and most likely embolden,the Iranians in there nuclear weapon aspirations.Those aspirations quietly cheered on from the sidelines by the Chinese and Russians... I really have no response to speak of other than reluctant agreement. Unless the Americans interfere a lot the entire middle east is going to become one vast Islamic state with a harsh sixth century cultural code and a sense of aggrieved outrage at the rest of the world for being richer and more scientifically and culturally advanced than them. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Jack Weber Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) I really have no response to speak of other than reluctant agreement. Unless the Americans interfere a lot the entire middle east is going to become one vast Islamic state with a harsh sixth century cultural code and a sense of aggrieved outrage at the rest of the world for being richer and more scientifically and culturally advanced than them. Well,the Americans are in a damned if they do/damned if they don't box based on ill-conceived State Department foreign policy going back at least 45 to 50 years... Most of that foreign policy allowed Fascist thugs to quell any and all self determination in those Arab countries out of geopolitical expediency.This has had the dileterious effect of causing the rise of Islamofascism because of the stiffled political situation in this countries. If they do get involved,and prop up anither Fascist dictator in any of the countries mentioned,they will simply embolden the Islamfascist elements in thise countries and the blowback will be extremely violent... If they do nothing,and economically,after blowing their brains out in Iraq and Afghanistan they really have little choice...This is probably going to happen organically anyway. You're final statement is spot on...I think the appeal of insular Islamofascism in those countries is base on ethnic embarassment.The Arab world was once very enlightened.Over many years,much longer than US invlovment,it has increasingly become more insular and less enlightened.For example,many Arab nations have illiteracy rates lower than impoverished SubSaharan African countries.This has had the effect on alot of those populouses that they go inward to their faith and blame the outside world for thier problems when the problems have been created by not dealing with the outside world. I suppose,if I put my tinfoil hat on for a moment,I can see where the battle lines for the 3rd World War are being drawn.I suspect it will start between radical Jewish nationalists and radical Islamofascists trying to kill each other.This will eventually suck the rest of the world into the inevitable conflict... Edited February 6, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GWiz Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 You mean like the Chinese did in similar circumstances? The Chinese? Our close allies, friends, customers and clients? Don't forget OWNERS of $1 TRILLION of the U.S.'s debt... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
jbg Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Unless the Americans interfere a lot the entire middle east is going to become one vast Islamic state with a harsh sixth century cultural code and a sense of aggrieved outrage at the rest of the world for being richer and more scientifically and culturally advanced than them. Agreed.We could use some help from the rest of the civilized world on that. Certainly the British and Canadians. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Agreed. We could use some help from the rest of the civilized world on that. Certainly the British and Canadians. Well, to be quite frank, the British and their Commonwealth already had a swing at bat decades before the Americans arrived on scene. How did that work out? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jbg Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Well, to be quite frank, the British and their Commonwealth already had a swing at bat decades before the Americans arrived on scene. How did that work out?Better than their abrupt de-colonization did. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jack Weber Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Better than their abrupt de-colonization did. That abrupt de-colonization happened,essentially because the British Empire was broke after two world wars... Guess who's essentially broke now? Empire USA is broke and is beginning to come apart on the fringes....The "Barbarians" are at the gate. Andseeing as the UK and Canada are greatly in debt,I doubt a whole lot is going to happen... Sadly,the ascension of the Crypto-Fascist Chinese global super power is almost upon us.... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Better than their abrupt de-colonization did. They blew it...we're still at bat...and the media in which to argue about it is decidedly American. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Jack Weber Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/02/02/game_over_the_chance_for_democracy_in_egypt_is_lost An interesting article... Sadly,one I agree with wholeheartedly... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
jbg Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/02/02/game_over_the_chance_for_democracy_in_egypt_is_lost An interesting article... Sadly,one I agree with wholeheartedly... Is Mubarak John Macdonald? Is the "opposition" Cartier? No. This is a part of the world where disputes are resolved by brute force and violence. Bush was condemned and ridiculed for trying to change that. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jack Weber Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) Is Mubarak John Macdonald? Is the "opposition" Cartier? No. This is a part of the world where disputes are resolved by brute force and violence. Bush was condemned and ridiculed for trying to change that. I don't care about anything your buddy Goober down in Crawford tried to do or say,because at the end of the day,he failed! The article is about how there is not going to be democracy in Egypt...Or to extrapolate, Tunisia...Or Yeman...Anytime soon. In fact,I would surmise that Yemen will be Islamofascist in short order.A weak Pan Arab Ba'Athist regime running out of resources.A civil war already going on.Al Quaeda operating within the country with help from Wahhabites across the border in Saudi Arabia.Right across the Gulf of Aden from Somolia,another Islamofascist failed state... Tunisia is the next most likely.. Egypt,with US and European help,will most likely stay an autocratic Fascist state.I fear that as no democracy will take place,a serious crackdown will take place after the worlds focus leave Egypt for somewhere else.This will only make a young and desparate population turn to Islamofascism in more and more numbers... That's not good for anyone... Edited February 6, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Egypt,with US and European help,will most likely stay an autocratic Fascist state.I fear that as no democracy will take place,a serious crackdown will take place after the worlds focus leave Egypt for somewhere else.This will only make a young and desparate population turn to Islamofascism in more and more numbers... Oh how soon they forget...here is PM Chretien and President Mubarak from a 2000 photo op: http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04o6ar85lS1BP/340x245.jpg?fit=scale&background=000000 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GWiz Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Oh how soon they forget...here is PM Chretien and President Mubarak from a 2000 photo op: http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04o6ar85lS1BP/340x245.jpg?fit=scale&background=000000 Nice Pic., I remember that one... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
pinko Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) Is Mubarak John Macdonald? Is the "opposition" Cartier? No. This is a part of the world where disputes are resolved by brute force and violence. Bush was condemned and ridiculed for trying to change that. Bush and his neocon bretheren tried to impose their version of democracy at the barrel of a gun. One need only look to Iraq to see the folly of such a policy. Edited February 6, 2011 by pinko Quote
GWiz Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/02/02/game_over_the_chance_for_democracy_in_egypt_is_lost An interesting article... Sadly,one I agree with wholeheartedly... As unfortunately must I... However, it has been my experience that societies are not always as easily manipulated in todays socio-economic realities as they were even a decade ago... In Egypt especially I feel this is true primarily because of the much higher awareness of what the "western world" has to offer... It will of course all depend on whether or not a true leader, perhaps even one from within the military establishment or those that have not been heard from yet, those being the "pro-stability" crowd that would in all likelihood be mostly a-political and least radical, to step forward... Egypt, one must remember, is very unlike most of the nations in the middle east with a rather "diversified" and mostly "modern" culture... A middle eastern culture that would have little problem understanding a very "western" phrase such as "it's the economy stupid"... Which, if truth be told is what triggered the "revolt" and could therefore also lead to it's more favourable conclusion... Edited February 6, 2011 by GWiz Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) They blew it...we're still at bat...and the media in which to argue about it is decidedly American. True... In my view the smartest thing to do is pretty much what the U.S. and Canada et al are doing... All I'm seeing here is a lot of FEAR mongering and useless speculation... Edited February 6, 2011 by GWiz Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
jbg Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Egypt,with US and European help,will most likely stay an autocratic Fascist state.I fear that as no democracy will take place,a serious crackdown will take place after the worlds focus leave Egypt for somewhere else.This will only make a young and desparate population turn to Islamofascism in more and more numbers...That's not good for anyone... O.K. I give up.What alternatives do you or anyone see? Just let Egypt become a failed Islamofascist state too? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
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