The crisis in Egypt

[Jack Weber]

There is a spectacular discussion about this subject on TVO's The Agenda right now....

[Scotty]

I have...

September of '77...Cubs vs Phils at the Vet...It was Puerto Rican night(I'm not making this up,that was the promotion for the evening....)...Sat in the upper deck with my Dad...

Phillies fans are timid, gentle and polite compared to Flyers fans.

[bush_cheney2004]

Phillies fans are timid, gentle and polite compared to Flyers fans.

Phillies fans would eat Flyers fans for lunch.

[Jack Weber]

Phillies fans are timid, gentle and polite compared to Flyers fans.

I don't follow hockey so I'll take your word for it...

I can tell you The Vet got pretty rowdy that evening,especially in the upper deck...

By the way,the "Bleacher Creatures"at Wrigley Field tend to get a little out of had on occassion...Especially on a Friday afternoon from about the 4th inning on..

[eyeball]

As far as I am concerned we all suck and have the same problems to work on.

There's really only one thing we can do about it. Submit ourselves to self-inflicted Pariah-hood, put our virtue where our money and natural resources are and tell the scum of the Earth that insists on diddling weaker nations and regions to go screw themselves. We simply should not be open for that kind of business.

Would it hurt, probably, would it be in vain, maybe, but that's the cost of maintaining a principle. I mean, it's not like Canadians haven't prided themselves on their ability to make great sacrifices in the name of fighting tyranny. To read the history books and cenotaph plaques this should be second nature to us.

The language we use that formalizes this into an official policy should be plain, concise and unambiguous. As I said earlier providing material or financial support to a dictatorship should be a crime against humanity.

[eyeball]

Maybe it is just certain members of this forum, but I'm feeling a level of animosity towards the U.S./Americans that I haven't felt in the past.

Finally sinking in is it?

[jbg]

Finally sinking in is it?

I visited the armpit center of the world in 1973 with my high school band and the people I was billeted with told me the same thing. As far as I'm concerned you've traded a great country for a bi-lingual Tower of Babble paradise.

[GWiz]

Finally sinking in is it?

Save that kind of reply for BC and kind... American Woman has done nothing to deserve it...

[GWiz]

There's really only one thing we can do about it. Submit ourselves to self-inflicted Pariah-hood, put our virtue where our money and natural resources are and tell the scum of the Earth that insists on diddling weaker nations and regions to go screw themselves. We simply should not be open for that kind of business.

Would it hurt, probably, would it be in vain, maybe, but that's the cost of maintaining a principle. I mean, it's not like Canadians haven't prided themselves on their ability to make great sacrifices in the name of fighting tyranny. To read the history books and cenotaph plaques this should be second nature to us.

The language we use that formalizes this into an official policy should be plain, concise and unambiguous. As I said earlier providing material or financial support to a dictatorship should be a crime against humanity.

You first... If you like it send the rest of us an e-mail, er, letter...

[Guest American Woman]

American Woman, on 31 January 2011 - 10:37 AM, said: Maybe it is just certain members of this forum, but I'm feeling a level of animosity towards the U.S./Americans that I haven't felt in the past.

Finally sinking in is it?

Talking to yourself, are you? I've said from the beginning of this issue: So many posters here seem to think they know so much about everything, but all of their so-called knowledge boils down to "blame the U.S. for anything/everything bad." link So, what I said is finally sinking in, is it?

I've been on Canadian forums for about ten years, so I'm guessing the trend on this forum likely isn't any different from the trend elsewhere. The difference is before it was predominantly under the guise of being anti-Bush, not anti-American. Now that people can't hide under the premise of "hating Bush/blaming Bush," the anti-American sentiment is much less subtle. And really, that's not just "certain members on this board," who too often, btw, are the majority of the members responding. I fear it's a trend, and as I said previously, I hate to see ill feelings destroy the good relationship our countries have always enjoyed. I would hate to see good neighbors feeling ill will towards each other. And as I also said, the "blame America" mindset solves nothing.

Edited February 1, 2011 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

I don't know you very well but from what I have noticed you are able to articulate a well reasoned position on a variety of issues being discussed. I only used China as an example is it is, for better or for worse, coming of age. Certainly it has many difficulities ahead some of which is related to demographics and some of which has to do with regional pockets of wealth side by side with regions where people live in poverty with no social safety net.

Thank you. I've enjoyed our discussions.

It's interesting hearing about the changes in China from my friend there. He's so intelligent and wise. I fell in love with the people on my first visit to China, and I wish them nothing but the best. I'm in their corner.

I can say without any reservation I have no animosity towards you as an individual and that you are American is, in my view, not an issue.

I haven't felt any personal animosity from you, but I appreciate your clarifying your feelings.

Those of you who live in states bordering Canada know that we have much in common. What is the difference between a young man or woman playing hockey on either side of that border other than nationality? Although there is a healthy rivalry I don't see much difference.

I agree that we have much in common. I have more in common with many Canadians than I do many regional areas of the United States. I've always recognized that. I felt a renewed/strong affinity with Canada after 9-11, so perhaps that's why you were reading frustration in my previous post. I'm not feeling good about the present trend; the blame America for everything trend.

I think both nations need to take a good look at themselves rather than projecting all the blame elsewhere.

Hey I saw American Woman first, back off.

p.s. the only thing we need fear from the US is New York Yankees fans. Trust me they are animals.

Edited February 1, 2011 by American Woman

[bjre]

Definitely it is, but like my friend in China said, the situation isn't all that it appears to be. It's difficult to say where their government is ultimately headed, too. There are major changes taking place and it's yet to be seen where they will all lead. Anyway, he hopes to emigrate to Canada next summer so his family can have a better life. He wants his daughter, one of the most beautiful little girls I've ever seen, to have the advantages that we have in North America.

Lots of Chinese don't know Canada. Just like lots of Canadian don't know China.

When those emigrate to Canada, they find the real Canada is quite different from their imagination, there are too much unexpected, but they have already lost too much such as time, money, chance, and many others... like hope.

[pinko]

Sorry you feel that way. If it helps I am pulling for Green Bay.

[Bob]

Nic Robertson with some of the rioters/demonstrators. Take it for what it's worth, but anti-Semitism is the theme of the day with these folks.

[Bob]

More interesting statistics from the Pew Research poll - 82% of Egyptians favour stoning those who commit adultery, 77% support cutting the hands off of those persons who commit theft/robbery, and 84% support the death penalty against those who leave Islam. Positive perspectives of these rioters/protestors don't seem to square with this information.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Bob

[pinko]

More interesting statistics from the Pew Research poll - 82% of Egyptians favour stoning those who commit adultery, 77% support cutting the hands off of those persons who commit theft/robbery, and 84% support the death penalty against those who leave Islam. Positive perspectives of these rioters/protestors don't seem to square with this information.

Maybe Israel needs to learn to get along with it's neighbours. There is a price to pay for being a bully.

[JB Globe]

Great...now we know exactly what your position is...not mine.

Here's the thing though - you're deliberately obtuse, you toss out inflammatory one-liners and refuse to clarify what they mean, doing a song and dance to avoid actually articulating a rational opinion on anything, and then when we're forced to draw conclusions because you won't explain yourself, you point the finger and say we're putting words in your mouth.

You're a troll, and everything is a joke. My only mistake was giving you the benefit of the doubt like I do everyone else and assuming you were for real.

Frankly, it's becoming clear that you don't mean anything you actually say.

I mean, you've called me elitist about 4 times now, and every time I say: "great, now quote me directly on that and demonstrate, constructing an argument, how I'm an elitist" and you just repeat the accusation. So really, you don't think I'm an elitist, you're just trying to piss me off - otherwise you'd back it up.

My motivation for coming on this board when I was a regular for a year or so used to really be about having debates, refining my arguments and learning from other perspectives.

Your motivation is simply to piss people off for your own pleasure with behaviour ranging from obnoxious to outright bigotry (No? You don't think you do that? Short memory . . . Making fun of natural disasters in developing countries, or dismissing those people's suffering isn't rooted in bigotry?) You might be playing a character - but that isn't a free pass on racist ish - you wouldn't tolerate some random person making harsh racist jokes about black folks in your presence just because he said he was joking.

People who enjoy being a-holes always, always either have problems socializing or feel neglected in some way (ie - no one listened or paid attention when they were a kid) this is absolute basic psychology here, nothing radical. So I get you - you have problems, that's why you post here and do what you do - because it's easier than dealing with your own ish on your own time (of course, nothing gets improved that way either).

You can deny this, but posting records don't lie - you're here all the time, you NEED this. On the other hand, I can leave for a year and return only out of curiosity to see if anything's changed, or if people like you are still doing their shtick.

So by all means, continue the routine, I'll be gone in a day or two. The records clearly show you need this way more than most of us do.

[Wild Bill]

Maybe Israel needs to learn to get along with it's neighbours. There is a price to pay for being a bully.

I remember years ago the company I worked for took on a project in Saudi Arabia. They were desperately trying to coax some of us employees to go work over there for a time but most of us weren't very enthusiastic.

You see, we had found out that under Saudi sharia type law, if we were a passenger in a taxi and there was an accident, WE would be charged since we were foreigners and non-muslims!

I'v always thought that as far as rights and laws go, I would feel much more comfortable in Israel than in most of its neighbours.

Bully is as bully does.

[Bob]

Maybe Israel needs to learn to get along with it's neighbours. There is a price to pay for being a bully.

Without even addressing the absurdity of your statement, what is the relationship between Israel and the widespread support, according to the poll, among Egyptians for Islamic-inspired justice - such as stonings and cutting the hands off of thieves?

[Bob]

I remember years ago the company I worked for took on a project in Saudi Arabia. They were desperately trying to coax some of us employees to go work over there for a time but most of us weren't very enthusiastic.

You see, we had found out that under Saudi sharia type law, if we were a passenger in a taxi and there was an accident, WE would be charged since we were foreigners and non-muslims!

I'v always thought that as far as rights and laws go, I would feel much more comfortable in Israel than in most of its neighbours.

Bully is as bully does.

There is no question that someone from a free country like Canada, almost without exception, will feel much more comfortable in Israel than in virtually all of the Arab/Muslim countries. And I am not only talking about materialistic comforts (with which certain Arab/Muslim countries can put Israel to shame). It's about freedom and diversity and modernity and liberty. You feel it here, you won't feel it in the other places.

[pinko]

I remember years ago the company I worked for took on a project in Saudi Arabia. They were desperately trying to coax some of us employees to go work over there for a time but most of us weren't very enthusiastic.

You see, we had found out that under Saudi sharia type law, if we were a passenger in a taxi and there was an accident, WE would be charged since we were foreigners and non-muslims!

I'v always thought that as far as rights and laws go, I would feel much more comfortable in Israel than in most of its neighbours.

Bully is as bully does.

Thank-you for sharing your personal experience with me. An acquaintance of mine worked in one of the Arab countries and ran afoul of the law when caught consuming alcoholic beverages apparently in contravention of religious customs and law. As I recall he was sujected to the lash.

I have not been to any of the countries in the Middle East and really have no desire to do so.

I am wondering what your view is of the substantial funding provided by the USA to Israel. Is it not the case the IDF acts in concert with the Muburak dictatorship in oppressing the Palestians?

What are your views on the democratization of the Middle Eastern states?

Edited February 1, 2011 by pinko

[Bob]

I am wondering what your view is of the substantial funding provided by the USA to Israel. Is it not the case the IDF acts in concert with the Muburak dictatorship in oppressing the Palestians?

What about the substantial funding provided by the USA, EU, Canada, Australia, UNRWA (and all other Palestinian-only UN sub-bodies), and Arab countries to the Palestinians? Who do you think receives more in absolute terms, or more interestingly, on a per-capita basis?

And no, the IDF isn't oppressing Palestinians in Gaza, which is what it seems you're referring to. There is no Egyptian or Israeli presence in Gaza.

[pinko]

What about the substantial funding provided by the USA, EU, Canada, Australia, UNRWA (and all other Palestinian-only UN sub-bodies), and Arab countries to the Palestinians? Who do you think receives more in absolute terms, or more interestingly, on a per-capita basis?

And no, the IDF isn't oppressing Palestinians in Gaza, which is what it seems you're referring to. There is no Egyptian or Israeli presence in Gaza.

I take it you would have no objections to having the funding offered by the Americans to Israel and Egypt discontinued.

Those polls you presented mean nothing to me.

Edited February 1, 2011 by pinko

[JB Globe]

Nic Robertson with some of the rioters/demonstrators. Take it for what it's worth, but anti-Semitism is the theme of the day with these folks.

Hating Israel is not the same as hating all Jews. I know you're a hardline zionist so you disagree, but the fact is that these women probably understand the difference between the policies of the state of Israel and the beliefs of the world's Jews. After all, their government doesn't really represent their will either.

I was just in Egypt last April with my best friend and his brother, who are Muslim. Folks just assumed because of my beard and tan and because I was with them that I was Muslim as well, some folks would ask me if I was Muslim, I said I wasn't, but I didn't say I was Jewish (because I was being cautious, and I would learn later, too cautious).

So when we would start talking politics, eventually Israel would come up, and they'd rail against it's policies towards the Palestinians. But every last person would always make the statement along the lines of: "but I have no problem with the Jewish people, Egyptians don't think like this - your media is twisting words, they think being against Israel is being against Jews" when I would tell them later on that I was Jewish, you should've see their eyes light up with joy, everyone was so unbelievably happy. Most shook my hand again and told me how happy they were that I felt comfortable enough to come to Egypt and to travel without the safety of a package tour. All of them said "please tell your friends to come! Especially your Jewish friends!" They really couldn't stand being portrayed as bigots, and I understand why - Egyptians are very relaxed and carefree, and frankly I don't think most have it in them to harbor abstract hatred against an entire group of people for no real reason. It's pretty sad, considering how incredibly nice even complete strangers were.

I had a peak in on everyone's facebook whom I met on my trip after the church bombing - every single one of them had a profile picture of a cross and a crescent together, so did pretty much all of their friends. I think a lot of the fears about Egypt are overblown, and come more from our own assumptions - which are in turn based on an ignorance that assumes every Muslim country is the same, and that every one MUST be anti-semitic or a revolt away from Islamism.

[pinko]

Hating Israel is not the same as hating all Jews. I know you're a hardline zionist so you disagree, but the fact is that these women probably understand the difference between the policies of the state of Israel and the beliefs of the world's Jews. After all, their government doesn't really represent their will either.

I was just in Egypt last April with my best friend and his brother, who are Muslim. Folks just assumed because of my beard and tan and because I was with them that I was Muslim as well, some folks would ask me if I was Muslim, I said I wasn't, but I didn't say I was Jewish (because I was being cautious, and I would learn later, too cautious).

So when we would start talking politics, eventually Israel would come up, and they'd rail against it's policies towards the Palestinians. But every last person would always make the statement along the lines of: "but I have no problem with the Jewish people, Egyptians don't think like this - your media is twisting words, they think being against Israel is being against Jews" when I would tell them later on that I was Jewish, you should've see their eyes light up with joy, everyone was so unbelievably happy. Most shook my hand again and told me how happy they were that I felt comfortable enough to come to Egypt and to travel without the safety of a package tour. All of them said "please tell your friends to come! Especially your Jewish friends!" They really couldn't stand being portrayed as bigots, and I understand why - Egyptians are very relaxed and carefree, and frankly I don't think most have it in them to harbor abstract hatred against an entire group of people for no real reason. It's pretty sad, considering how incredibly nice even complete strangers were.

I had a peak in on everyone's facebook whom I met on my trip after the church bombing - every single one of them had a profile picture of a cross and a crescent together, so did pretty much all of their friends. I think a lot of the fears about Egypt are overblown, and come more from our own assumptions - which are in turn based on an ignorance that assumes every Muslim country is the same, and that every one MUST be anti-semitic or a revolt away from Islamism.

Well put.