jbg Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 America's national myths are a powerful, unifying force in that country. Freedom, Old Glory, Remember the Alamo, the Bald Eagle, the Grand Experiment in Democracy, the First Republic, etc. I could go on...certainly, the federalism debates were not the last point on the subject. The U.S. works in practice because it's unifying myths are very powerful. Canada does not have those kinds of unifying myths**************The irony, of course, is that while the U.S. could technically exist without Canada, unless Canada develops new myths Canada would have a hard time defining itself without the U.S. This is an extracted part of a post that I believe creates some serious food for thought and discussion. As most will be quick to say, many of the U.S.'s myths are seen through rose-colored or distorted glasses, but do nourish our patriotism. Canadian patriotism seems far more muted and not the unifying force it is in the U.S. Can it exist where the country is not forged in war, in our case three of them? Thoughts? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
GostHacked Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Is it us that need to define who we are as Canadians, or are others needing us to define ourselves? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Before we talk about the need for national myths, how about the need for nations ? When was the nation-state developed ? About 400 years ago ? What is it's purpose today ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Topaz Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 In my view, I remember the US as a great nation back in the late 50's and could live up to everything it said about itself. Then the Nam war, JFK, Robert Kennedy's murder, along with Kings and it seemed the US took a slow nose dive. They hit the bottom when GW took over and the 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq and all the lies that came from that and how the world thought of the great US. Now the financially mess of 13-14 Trillion national debt and spending a billion a month. When you put anything on a pedestal, you find its hard to keep it there. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Before we talk about the need for national myths, how about the need for nations ? When was the nation-state developed ? About 400 years ago ? What is it's purpose today ? The abstract concept of a "nation state" is an important manifestation of human development (political, economic, cultural, etc.). It is/was necessary for the transition from earlier forms of organization and attributes that failed to protect, preserve, and advance the interests of like minded groups. Nations are the current building blocks of "civilization" until something better comes along. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 .... When you put anything on a pedestal, you find its hard to keep it there. Then why did you put it there? America does not have to live up to your expectations and false notions about how great things were before 1960. Why wasn't Canada placed on such a pedestal? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 The abstract concept of a "nation state" is an important manifestation of human development (political, economic, cultural, etc.). It is/was necessary for the transition from earlier forms of organization and attributes that failed to protect, preserve, and advance the interests of like minded groups. Nations are the current building blocks of "civilization" until something better comes along. Something better came along after the Berlin Wall fell, called "Globalization" for lack of a better word. The neolithic period was important too, but no one is suggesting we retain cuneiform writing. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Something better came along after the Berlin Wall fell, called "Globalization" for lack of a better word. The neolithic period was important too, but no one is suggesting we retain cuneiform writing. No, globalization in its present state is too narrow at this time (economic). The true test and lasting replacement for nation states must address all aspects of current human development, which includes academic preservation of cuneiform writing. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
M.Dancer Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Then why did you put it there? America does not have to live up to your expectations and false notions about how great things were before 1960. Why wasn't Canada placed on such a pedestal? I don't know if "we" ( or Topaz) put it there. I kind of think the US put it there themselves (with the help of a French Sculpter and Hollywood) but you point stands...don't believe the hype. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Shwa Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Canadian patriotism seems far more muted and not the unifying force it is in the U.S. How would you know? Are you saying that the bar to a nationally unifying force is U.S. style myths? Or are there other means used elsewhere on the planet that would suffice? Can it exist where the country is not forged in war, in our case three of them? Where we you in 1759? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 I don't know if "we" ( or Topaz) put it there. I kind of think the US put it there themselves (with the help of a French Sculpter and Hollywood) but you point stands...don't believe the hype. I have been harping about the true nature of America since coming to this forum, yet we still have people who think it only changed with the invasion of Iraq. The US was born of war, expanded in war, and continues to dominate with war. If it is guilty of anything, it is the wildly successful "exceptionalism" in the face of such myths. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shwa Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 I have been harping about the true nature of America since coming to this forum, yet we still have people who think it only changed with the invasion of Iraq. The US was born of war, expanded in war, and continues to dominate with war. If it is guilty of anything, it is the wildly successful "exceptionalism" in the face of such myths. Another nationalist myth perhaps? Quote
dre Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 This is an extracted part of a post that I believe creates some serious food for thought and discussion. As most will be quick to say, many of the U.S.'s myths are seen through rose-colored or distorted glasses, but do nourish our patriotism. Canadian patriotism seems far more muted and not the unifying force it is in the U.S. Can it exist where the country is not forged in war, in our case three of them? Thoughts? Patriotism is dangerous. In the US we see it used to browbeat political opponents, and to crush political dissent. Military idolitry is dangerous too. A population too consumed with these things is like a deer in the headlights. Its unable to keep its government honest, and the government can basically do what it wants. Its especially vulnerable to looting by the government through elective war. It was Goerring that said. Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY." Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Another nationalist myth perhaps? Your former Empire didn't think so. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
M.Dancer Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Patriotism is dangerous. There is a differnce between nationalism and patriotism. You are confusing them. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Patriotism is dangerous. In the US we see it used to browbeat political opponents, and to crush political dissent. Military idolitry is dangerous too.... That's how it is used in Canada too...just wait for the next election cycle. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shwa Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Your former Empire didn't think so. I am not talking about "your former Empire" I am talking about your statement. Bit of a difference. People always putting the Yanks down to war, even Yanks themselves. Louisiana Purchase - 828,800 sq mi Alaska Purchase - 586,412 sq mi Combined Large Purchases - 1,415,212 sq mi Which is about, what 37% of the present size of the US? That's a lot of "expansion." Not to mention all the Indian purchases and small claims against Mexico, etc., which might push things over 50% of the country without warfare, maybe even more. Quote
dre Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 There is a differnce between nationalism and patriotism. You are confusing them. Both are dangerous. Combine nationalism, patriotism, and military idolitry and you have the perfect trifecta to make the population easy to manipulate, even against their own interests. Im not saying all patriotism is bad, but it isnt inherently good either. The OP seems to propose that patriotism is a good thing, and that its a problem that there isnt enough of it in some countries. I completely disagree. The answer to the question is... Who cares?. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
eyeball Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Before we talk about the need for national myths, how about the need for nations ? When was the nation-state developed ? About 400 years ago ? What is it's purpose today ? No kidding. I'm an Earthling, I don't need no steenking national mythology. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 I am not talking about "your former Empire" I am talking about your statement. Bit of a difference. People always putting the Yanks down to war, even Yanks themselves. It was still war for the people who lived there. Nothing wrong with that. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 No, globalization in its present state is too narrow at this time (economic). The true test and lasting replacement for nation states must address all aspects of current human development, which includes academic preservation of cuneiform writing. Economics leads social change, though. I made that discovery on this very board. You may have even been the one who pointed that out to me. Economic migration and interchange leads to cultural exchange on a scale that no government "look at the cute cultural folkdance" program can. If I waited for a government cultural program to introduce me to the cultures of the world, I would still be living in the milky white Canada that I remember from the 1960s. Buy, sell, and grow - economically and culturally. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Shwa Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) It was still war for the people who lived there. Nothing wrong with that. I am not sure I understand your point. If you are talking about the occupants of those former territories, it was like any change, but not necessarily like a military one with all the death and destruction in small pockets of time. One of the best myths is the Boston Tea Party, which was a physical response to an economic pressure. If anything, I think it would be more true to say, 'The US was born of economics, expanded with economics, and continues to dominate with economics.' Heck, even the Civil War had economics at its heart. And behind that economic drive are a lot of ideas - creative, innovative and forward thinking. The US was dragged into both World Wars when they were content enough to profit economically, then look what happened afterward. Perhaps Americans like the myth of the modern hero-soldier, but it is the hero-business man that built it. And generally they didn't like to get themselves too bloody. Edited January 7, 2011 by Shwa Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 ...Buy, sell, and grow - economically and culturally. OK...but the nation state framework remains until displaced by the Federation of Planets. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 OK...but the nation state framework remains until displaced by the Federation of Planets. ...and people still were hunter/gathers after writing was developed. How useful is the nation state today ? I seem to only ever see patriotism evoked when somebody (a politician or car company) is trying to sell something. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 ...and people still were hunter/gathers after writing was developed. How useful is the nation state today ? I seem to only ever see patriotism evoked when somebody (a politician or car company) is trying to sell something. That is only one superficial aspect....there are many other attributes and protocols established by nation states. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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