Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 That is only one superficial aspect....there are many other attributes and protocols established by nation states. The question is not whether nation states have any activities (as Clay Shirky says, every institution preserves the problem to which it is the solution) but whether they are useful in reality. The difference between nations is as important as the difference between US states and federal government. We are on the same "side" as most of the world, with a big chunk "in between" and only a few rogue states as enemies. World Government is here already, like it or not. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 One of the best myths is the Boston Tea Party, which was a physical response to an economic pressure. If anything, I think it would be more true to say, 'The US was born of economics, expanded with economics, and continues to dominate with economics.' Heck, even the Civil War had economics at its heart. That's fine, but often the implementation and influence was through armed conflict at the local, national, and international level. Now America has such tools in space! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 The question is not whether nation states have any activities (as Clay Shirky says, every institution preserves the problem to which it is the solution) but whether they are useful in reality. They will remain useful as long as nothing better exists....in practice. The difference between nations is as important as the difference between US states and federal government. We are on the same "side" as most of the world, with a big chunk "in between" and only a few rogue states as enemies. There is no "side".....only competition and alliances for scarce resources. World Government is here already, like it or not. I like it....it was very effective for Rwanda and Haiti! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 They will remain useful as long as nothing better exists....in practice. What are they useful for now ? Security - again, mostly in dealing with rogue nations Trade - basically drawing up more agreements that renders them weaker Environment - report card on this one isn't great, with no substantive agreements in place, perhaps because they don't have anything to bicker about other than the environment. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Shwa Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 What are they useful for now ? Security - again, mostly in dealing with rogue nations Trade - basically drawing up more agreements that renders them weaker Environment - report card on this one isn't great, with no substantive agreements in place, perhaps because they don't have anything to bicker about other than the environment. You are seeing a direct line between the nation state and the global state. Don't you think there is a step, or maybe even two, in between? Even Orwell saw this 70 years ago with regional alliances. One of the best - or most often cited - reasons for 'nation' is a device against cultural hegemony - and in many cases, by 'cultural' they mean 'economic.' I mean, we can't sign a trade agreement with the EU because we call some of our cheese 'Feta?' Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 What are they useful for now ? Miss Universe and Miss World pageants? Security - again, mostly in dealing with rogue nations Are there no rogue nations (e.g. USA)? Trade - basically drawing up more agreements that renders them weaker ...but persists the underlying economic mandate. Environment - report card on this one isn't great, with no substantive agreements in place, perhaps because they don't have anything to bicker about other than the environment. Not true...and again, supportive of economic interests. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
WIP Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 This is an extracted part of a post that I believe creates some serious food for thought and discussion. As most will be quick to say, many of the U.S.'s myths are seen through rose-colored or distorted glasses, but do nourish our patriotism. Canadian patriotism seems far more muted and not the unifying force it is in the U.S. Can it exist where the country is not forged in war, in our case three of them? Thoughts? Your national myth is going to crash and burn in the near future, because the costs of maintaining the vast U.S. Overseas Empire are being payed for by China and other foreign buyers of U.S. paper. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Your national myth is going to crash and burn in the near future, because the costs of maintaining the vast U.S. Overseas Empire are being payed for by China and other foreign buyers of U.S. paper. 'Tis better to have had a national super-power myth and crashed, than never to have had one at all. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
WIP Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 'Tis better to have had a national super-power myth and crashed, than never to have had one at all. Not for me. I prefer to live myth-free. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
jbg Posted January 7, 2011 Author Report Posted January 7, 2011 Before we talk about the need for national myths, how about the need for nations ? When was the nation-state developed ? About 400 years ago ? What is it's purpose today ? I don't want to be governed by some "majority" who act at the behest of mullahs, imams and the like. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 I don't want to be governed by some "majority" who act at the behest of mullahs, imams and the like. Riiiiiight.... because as nations dissolve, we can expect that a Sharia super-structure will rule the globe, right ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Bonam Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 Riiiiiight.... because as nations dissolve, we can expect that a Sharia super-structure will rule the globe, right ? Not Sharia, but presumably if we opted out of having individual nations and instead looked at some system of world government, then the people of much more backward regions would necessarily have some say over these world policies (presuming that the government retained some semblance of democracy). If you look at the UN general assembly and many of its committees, it is very heavily influenced by nonsensical third world beliefs and ideas. The same would have to be expected out of any world body. Quote
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 This is an extracted part of a post that I believe creates some serious food for thought and discussion. As most will be quick to say, many of the U.S.'s myths are seen through rose-colored or distorted glasses, but do nourish our patriotism. Canadian patriotism seems far more muted and not the unifying force it is in the U.S. Can it exist where the country is not forged in war, in our case three of them? Thoughts? I'm inclined to disagree, have you ever seen a Remembrance or Canada day event? The people seem pretty unified to me. As for being forged in war, the War of 1812, WW1, and WW2. Quote
Shakeyhands Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 The US was born of war, expanded in war, and continues to dominate with war. Which makes it even more remarkable that you've never won one on your own... well... I guess the one. Seems you aren't all that good at making war-war either.. Quote "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche
dre Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 Riiiiiight.... because as nations dissolve, we can expect that a Sharia super-structure will rule the globe, right ? Even a thread about patriotism is good place to bash muslims! Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 Which makes it even more remarkable that you've never won one on your own... well... I guess the one. Seems you aren't all that good at making war-war either.. Which one are you talking about I can't seem to think of one. Quote
dre Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 Which one are you talking about I can't seem to think of one. Nope me neither. Nicaragua? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted January 8, 2011 Author Report Posted January 8, 2011 Your national myth is going to crash and burn in the near future, because the costs of maintaining the vast U.S. Overseas Empire are being payed for by China and other foreign buyers of U.S. paper. I have a far more optimistic view. But then again Americans tend to be optimists. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Shwa Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 Which makes it even more remarkable that you've never won one on your own... well... I guess the one. Seems you aren't all that good at making war-war either.. What history book have you been smoking? Quote
Guest American Woman Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 As most will be quick to say, many of the U.S.'s myths are seen through rose-colored or distorted glasses, but do nourish our patriotism. Are you speaking of some Americans' myths about the U.S. or others' myths about it? Because I'd say there are plenty of myths about the U.S. that are just the opposite of "rose colored." Furthermore, I'd say that very different myths exist depending on the individual or the country we're speaking of. Canadian patriotism seems far more muted and not the unifying force it is in the U.S. Some Canadians hold myths about Canada every bit as "patriotic" and "unifying" as Americans'. I fail to see where their patriotism, ie: love of and loyalty to Canada, is more muted than Americans'. Can it exist where the country is not forged in war, in our case three of them? Good Lord, I hope so. I hope war isn't what binds countrymen together. And three? Quote
eyeball Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 Good Lord, I hope so. I hope war isn't what binds countrymen together. And three? I'm sure it isn't the only thing but it's the handiest and given that war is something that can also make people immensely wealthy and powerful it's probably the most natural at this point in our evolution. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
bloodyminded Posted January 9, 2011 Report Posted January 9, 2011 Not Sharia, but presumably if we opted out of having individual nations and instead looked at some system of world government, then the people of much more backward regions would necessarily have some say over these world policies (presuming that the government retained some semblance of democracy). If you look at the UN general assembly and many of its committees, it is very heavily influenced by nonsensical third world beliefs and ideas. The same would have to be expected out of any world body. Or it could be that some backwards and bloody tyrannies are supported by the powerful democracies, and that some of them might collapse without this support. Surely we've supported dictatorships over democracy-minded forces. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Jack Weber Posted January 9, 2011 Report Posted January 9, 2011 Or it could be that some backwards and bloody tyrannies are supported by the powerful democracies, and that some of them might collapse without this support. Surely we've supported dictatorships over democracy-minded forces. Completely true and historically accurate.... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
jbg Posted January 10, 2011 Author Report Posted January 10, 2011 Are you speaking of some Americans' myths about the U.S. or others' myths about it? Because I'd say there are plenty of myths about the U.S. that are just the opposite of "rose colored." Furthermore, I'd say that very different myths exist depending on the individual or the country we're speaking of.Even though I am quite the flag-waver I acknowledge that slavery, the treatment of Natives and the exclusion of Jews during the Holocaust, among others, are major blots on our history.Some Canadians hold myths about Canada every bit as "patriotic" and "unifying" as Americans'. I fail to see where their patriotism, ie: love of and loyalty to Canada, is more muted than Americans'.There are far fewer Canadian flags on display on the average residential street than American flags. Good Lord, I hope so. I hope war isn't what binds countrymen together. And three? The American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812 and the American Civil War. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 I'm still waiting for the name of the one war that the US won on their own. Quote
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