The Ultra rich getting richer

[netspawn]

Bonam say: ... Many people enjoy watching movies, enjoy watching sports, and enjoy listening to music.

netspawn say: Sure thing, Bonam; and I am one of them, to be sure. I too enjoy movies, music, and football (CFL & NFL) ... BUT ... that is not the point.

B: To these people, sports/movie/rock stars create significant value, and they reap the rewards. Just because something has no value to you, doesn't mean it has no value to anyone.

It's not that I don't value these useless parasites and the ephemeral "significant value" that they create, rather it is that these "stars" do not deserve the gross adulation that they recieve from the stupid-public, nor are the monies that they receive commesurate with the "value" of the meager entertainment that they provide. There is nothing at all rational about the financial compensation that they receive for something that really has no lasting value to society as a whole.

[bloodyminded]

One such calls himself 'the Merchant of Truth'. At first sight this interesting phrase appears to be a rather off-hand definition of the philosopher, but actually it is a phrase used by self-made millionare Kevin - Mr Wonderful - O'Leary to describe himself. Does he consider himself to be some sort of philosopher then? It may well be so, for he is indeed much inclined to offer pithy gems of wisdom such as 'greed is good' and 'money has no soul' and 'stop the madness'. And yet this wonderous beacon of enlightenment holds the rather absurd opinion that the 'rich getting richer' is actually a good thing, in that it motivates people (ie. entrepreneurs) to work hard so that they too may become wealthy.

Well, whatever skills and talents Mr. O'Leary possesses (and no doubt he is skilful and talented), he has two fairly bad qualities:

1. His channeling of Gordon Gecko is a pretension, ie a false persona he puts on because it gratifies him to irritate people.

Now, we forget, in the age of unremarked, unaccountable personae that this is a sign of poor character. Just because a portion of the semi-literate public (ie Ayn Rand fans) really admire douchebag behaviour doesn't mean that others (ie new Ayn Rand acolytes) need emulate it. Might be the result of bad parenting, but I'm not sure.

2. He's not a thinker, not in any sense outside of the narrow (albeit lucrative) knowledge-base that he has. Polymathy is considered a liability in the Financial Age, because it deals so sparsely with Speculation, von Mises, and other parasitic pursuits. Therefore, he should skip the philosophy, because he gets instantly and jaw-droppingly confused by the simplest concepts:

ie His remarks, made multiple times by my count (and without attempting to, so it may well be something he's repeated a thousand times to his shell-shocked wife and sycophantic colleagues):

"Mixing morality and Business is evil."

OK...not even for the sake of the Ayn Rand fans am I going to spell out the problem here. If you cannot instantly see the glaring contradiction which totally destroys his own argument....then you should go back to your unremarkable life, pretend that you're one day going to get rich, and stop worrying about such niceties as thought.

Edited September 15, 2011 by bloodyminded

[netspawn]

dear bloodyminded, well said. I've never heard Mr Wonderful actually say "Mixing morality and Business is evil", but I totally believe it's part of his "philosophy". Do you suppose he actually supports and approves of the plutonomy that our civilization is turning into? ... btw: what's "von Mises"?

[bloodyminded]

dear bloodyminded, well said. I've never heard Mr Wonderful actually say "Mixing morality and Business is evil", but I totally believe it's part of his "philosophy".

It's amusing, isn't it? I've heard this from other supposed proponents of some mythical "free market": they get morally outraged and sanctimonious about any mention of morality and ethics in Business.

They want it both ways. Well, they can't have it.

... btw: what's "von Mises"?

The late Ludwig von Mises has been an important part of the intellectual-libertarian movement. A very sharp guy, no question. Once offered some defense of fascism as a temporary bulwark," an important "emergency makeshift" against Communism.

Not a terribly popular notion these days, so it's little wonder his adherents never mention it.

[eyeball]

The late Ludwig von Mises has been an important part of the intellectual-libertarian movement. A very sharp guy, no question. Once offered some defense of fascism as a temporary bulwark," an important "emergency makeshift" against Communism.

Not a terribly popular notion these days, so it's little wonder his adherents never mention it.

Wtf? I thought we aligned ourselves with communists to defeat fascism?

[bloodyminded]

Wtf? I thought we aligned ourselves with communists to defeat fascism?

That's the idea normally proposed, yes. PErhaps von Mises agrees with that, as well...but feels, simultaneously, that fascism provided a useful tool against Communism.

I can't really say.

[Bonam]

That's the idea normally proposed, yes.

Idea normally proposed? It's more of a historical fact, not a proposal. Of course, as soon as fascism was defeated, we broke our ties with our communist allies and had an five decade long cold war with them.

[Jack Weber]

That's the idea normally proposed, yes. PErhaps von Mises agrees with that, as well...but feels, simultaneously, that fascism provided a useful tool against Communism.

I can't really say.

It's an ugly thought,but,it probably did.Fascist's were/are so notoriously anti-Communist,they stopped the Communist advancment into Western Europe pretty much along the line of the Axis Powers.They definately stoped it in Spain and Portugal.Of course,we had a World War to defeat Fascism in Germany and Italy and it only dies a long death in Spain and Portugal...

Edited September 16, 2011 by Jack Weber

[bloodyminded]

Idea normally proposed? It's more of a historical fact, not a proposal.

I was attempting dry irony.

[Pliny]

netspawn say: Sure thing, Bonam; and I am one of them, to be sure. I too enjoy movies, music, and football (CFL & NFL) ... BUT ... that is not the point.

It's not that I don't value these useless parasites and the ephemeral "significant value" that they create, rather it is that these "stars" do not deserve the gross adulation that they recieve from the stupid-public, nor are the monies that they receive commesurate with the "value" of the meager entertainment that they provide. There is nothing at all rational about the financial compensation that they receive for something that really has no lasting value to society as a whole.

If you see economic inequity perhaps you should study economics before deciding upon which political ideology will best resolve the economic problems you see. I know it ieasy to listen to how politicians will resolve all our socio/economic ills but their actions don't seem to resolve them. You parroting what they are telling you should be done has not proven to have been so successful.

[Pliny]

The late Ludwig von Mises has been an important part of the intellectual-libertarian movement. A very sharp guy, no question. Once offered some defense of fascism as a temporary bulwark," an important "emergency makeshift" against Communism.

Not a terribly popular notion these days, so it's little wonder his adherents never mention it.

Imagine you are a communist, got the idea...now what would you call someone who vehemently opposed communism. For the most effect,I think you would probably callhim a fascist. Even if one just sympathized with left wing socialism one would even today not put up much of an argument if one of his colleagues called their opposition fascistic.

But really, we know Hitler distanced himself from communism because he thought it was a Jewish conspiracy and the Aryan race was superior to all races and that distance was not because he was not a proponent of a totalitarian style of government, just his totalitarian style of government which was omplete with public education, universal health care, political youth movements of the proper sway, and genrally running everyone's lives for them.

[Zachary Young]

Mises was a great opponent of fascism. He was so feared by the Nazis for his criticisms that they chased him first to Switzerland, then to America.

[Jack Weber]

But really, we know Hitler distanced himself from communism because he thought it was a Jewish conspiracy and the Aryan race was superior to all races and that distance was not because he was not a proponent of a totalitarian style of government, just his totalitarian style of government which was omplete with public education, universal health care, political youth movements of the proper sway, and genrally running everyone's lives for them.

Well....That explains ol' Herr Shickelgruber...

What about Benito Mussolini???

What about General Francisco Franco???

Oliviera Salazar???

General Augusto Pinochet???

Fulgencio Batista???

Alfredo Stroessner???

Anastasio Samoza???

Mobuto Sese Seko???

Were they also "anti-Jewish Leftists"?

Edited September 18, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Sir Bandelot]

Indeed a number of nations during WWII preferred to align with the Nazis rather than the communists, as choosing the lesser of two evils. Some of those in the Baltics.

[Bonam]

Indeed a number of nations during WWII preferred to align with the Nazis rather than the communists, as choosing the lesser of two evils. Some of those in the Baltics.

Yup, certainly. Communism is no less evil than Nazism, really. In my book, they have a tie for two of the most evil philosophies ever widely practiced by mankind. The reason we allied with the USSR against Germany is not because Nazism was worse than communism (the worst evils of Nazism weren't discovered until the end of the war anyway), but because Hitler decided it would be a good idea to try to conquer the world, and we didn't feel like being conquered.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Bonam

[maple_leafs182]

Yup, certainly. Communism is no less evil than Nazism, really. In my book, they have a tie for two of the most evil philosophies ever widely practiced by mankind. The reason we allied with the USSR against Germany is not because Nazism was worse than communism (the worst evils of Nazism weren't discovered until the end of the war anyway), but because Hitler decided it would be a good idea to try to conquer the world, and we didn't feel like being conquered.

I think people don't understand what communism is. What China and Russia had really wasn't communism, it was more of a form of totalitarianism that used the word communism because communism was desired by the people.

[Bonam]

I think people don't understand what communism is. What China and Russia had really wasn't communism, it was more of a form of totalitarianism that used the word communism because communism was desired by the people.

What communism is, is whatever people have tried to implement communism as in real life. The fact that there is some platonic perfect form of communism in some theorist's head doesn't matter. Just like the fact that somewhere in someone's imagination pure perfect capitalism results in utopia doesn't convince anyone of the merits of such a system either. And, by the way, I know exactly what the communist ideal is, and it is even more inherently evil than what was implemented in practice in Russia.

[Jack Weber]

What communism is, is whatever people have tried to implement communism as in real life. The fact that there is some platonic perfect form of communism in some theorist's head doesn't matter. Just like the fact that somewhere in someone's imagination pure perfect capitalism results in utopia doesn't convince anyone of the merits of such a system either. And, by the way, I know exactly what the communist ideal is, and it is even more inherently evil than what was implemented in practice in Russia.

Interesting...

And I agree!!!...Particularily on the extremes of Communism and Capitalism.....

Could you please elaborate on your knowledge of inherent evil AND your knowledge on where this was implemented?

[Bonam]

Interesting...

And I agree!!!...Particularily on the extremes of Communism and Capitalism.....

Could you please elaborate on your knowledge of inherent evil AND your knowledge on where this was implemented?

Russia tried to implement communism, and that's where I come from, where I was born. As for inherent evil, communism is an abomination because it tries to set up a society that requires/forces people to act in direct contradiction to their nature as humans. That's the root of its evil as a philosophy. The evil deeds done to try to enforce it (purging intellectuals, Gulags, tens of millions of dead, etc) are a manifestation of the fundamental disconnect between how people are naturally wired to act and to think and how the state took it upon itself to force them to act and to think under communist ideology. Communism implemented to the end of its ideals would be even worse, it would mean there is no one left who has not been broken in submission to the state, to the collective, to the "common good". I don't really feel like writing a long essay on the issue here and now, but needless to say I have critiqued communism many times on these forums.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Bonam

[Jack Weber]

Russia tried to implement communism, and that's where I come from, where I was born. As for inherent evil, communism is an abomination because it tries to set up a society that requires/forces people to act in direct contradiction to their nature as humans. That's the root of its evil as a philosophy. The evil deeds done to try to enforce it (purging intellectuals, Gulags, tens of millions of dead, etc) are a manifestation of the fundamental disconnect between how people are naturally wired to act and to think and how the state took it upon itself to force them to act and to think under communist ideology. Communism implemented to the end of its ideals would be even worse, it would mean there is no one left who has not been broken in submission to the state, to the collective, to the "common good". I don't really feel like writing a long essay on the issue here and now, but needless to say I have critiqued communism many times on these forums.

I don't disagree with that at all!!!

I think you are absolutely right that Communism is an extreme best left to the dustbin of history.

I'm far more interested in your opinions on the nature of unfettered Capitalism and it's effect in most of those under that extreme?

[Oleg Bach]

If you inherit say 10 million bucks - your old man was a buisness type - then appointed to the senate - and you are connected - you will make money hand over fist for doing nothing for the rest of your life - and you will look down on some in contempt and say "you have had a lot of opportunities and I don't understand why YOU who was born poor and not connected is still poor - you must be lazy and stupid" - easy for that ass hole to say - seeing he can not grasp the idea that some people might not even have a bus ticket that day...

I aways respected the ultra rich - until I figured out that they are so connected that they all suffer the same dis-connect from reality..they are institutionalized in their thinking in the same mannner as some tattooed creep that spent to much time in the pen ---- both are unredeemable. The ultra rich are as stunningly stupid as the ultra poor.

[jacee]

If you inherit say 10 million bucks - your old man was a buisness type - then appointed to the senate - and you are connected - you will make money hand over fist for doing nothing for the rest of your life - and you will look down on some in contempt and say "you have had a lot of opportunities and I don't understand why YOU who was born poor and not connected is still poor - you must be lazy and stupid" - easy for that ass hole to say - seeing he can not grasp the idea that some people might not even have a bus ticket that day...

I aways respected the ultra rich - until I figured out that they are so connected that they all suffer the same dis-connect from reality..they are institutionalized in their thinking in the same mannner as some tattooed creep that spent to much time in the pen ---- both are unredeemable. The ultra rich are as stunningly stupid as the ultra poor.

I can't imagine how the ultrarich would even have knowledge of the ultrapoor, unless they accidentally caught a few seconds of some documentary while flipping channels maybe.

I haven't found the ultrapoor to be "stupid". They have 'savings' plans - they loan money to each other to 'save' some cash for food later in the month, for example. God help you if you ever get stuck being owed a debt in one of these spiralling domino chains of 'maybe tomorrow' paybacks, though.

They eat pasta almost every day because it makes you feel full. They bust chops instead of calling cops, saving public money and their own time. They don't waste phone time telling you they're not coming: If they're coming they'll show up.. They'll hold a bus for you, throw your purse in your bank parking lot for you, give you a smoke, a beer or some food or meter change if they can and you need it, and they'll never rat you out for driving or bylaw infractions, except speeding where there's kids around. They know all politicians are shite, corporations too, "but what can you do", and they can program your phone or tv in a flash. Some spend an extraordinary amount of time following trucks around as they'll offer to get you almost anything that can fall off a truck, but you might not want to take advantage of their 'scratch and dent' sale. If you ignorantly flaunt your money around them you'll lose it (on principle) but find 'gifts' at your door. (And learn an important life lesson). If they laugh at you and curse you out they like you, but watch out if they start talking nice cos you've pissed someone off.

They'll chat you up and 'escort' you safely across the street away from 4 angry-eyed guys (who want to bust their chops), thus again maintaining peace and order without expensive police involvement. They'll tie your lost dog to their front porch for you to find so you don't have to pay the SPCA.

No, I don't find the ultrapoor "stupid" at all, even though perhaps unemployable in the traditional sense due to the chronic and cross-generational chaos that is the world as they experience it. They may find us exceedingly stupid for fussing about nonsensical things like tidy-perfect rooms where no one can live comfortably, tidy-perfect timelines when life is a cornucopia of unpre dictable events, and tidy-perfect budgets when opportunities that exist today may never come again. Nobody lives in the "now" like those with nothing, and nothing to lose.

But that may just be my experience.

The ultrarich?

No clue.

But I somehow doubt that they ever enjoy themselves any more than two excons with a case of beer belting out a tune in two different keys.

[bush_cheney2004]

... They may find us exceedingly stupid for fussing about nonsensical things like tidy-perfect rooms where no one can live comfortably, tidy-perfect timelines when life is a cornucopia of unpre dictable events, and tidy-perfect budgets when opportunities that exist today may never come again. Nobody lives in the "now" like those with nothing, and nothing to lose.

But that may just be my experience.

Gee...it makes one wonder why such masters of the space-time continuum are poor at all. Perhaps they can take solace in having too much time on their hands...just like the "ultra rich".

[netspawn]

Pliny say: If you see economic inequity perhaps you should study economics before deciding upon which political ideology will best resolve the economic problems you see.

.

Actually, Pliny, I have in fact just recently embarked upon such a study. I just started reading 'The Worldly Philosophers', a book about the lives and ideas of a half dozen famous economists; starting with Adam Smith. Fascinating stuff so far ...

.

I know it is easy to listen to how politicians will resolve all our socio/economic ills, but their actions don't seem to resolve them.

.

They are lying scumbags, to be sure ... most of them, anyway. Jack was different. He was, at the very least, sincere.

.

You parroting what they are telling you should be done has not proven to have been so successful.

.

Say what? Moi parroting? Surely you jest.

[Pliny]

.

Actually, Pliny, I have in fact just recently embarked upon such a study. I just started reading 'The Worldly Philosophers', a book about the lives and ideas of a half dozen famous economists; starting with Adam Smith. Fascinating stuff so far ...

.

Excellent! perhaps the greatest thing to understand is why people trade. One of course has to realize that most economics today deals with macro-econometrics. However, individual human behavior is the single upredictable variable that is the failing of macro-econometrics. It cannot be plugged into a mathematical formula. Of course, I am a proponent of Austrian Economic theory, as opposed to the more mainstream, Keynesian economic theory, which I believe he intended for a more socialisitic state.

.

They are lying scumbags, to be sure ... most of them, anyway. Jack was different. He was, at the very least, sincere.

.

Funny but the very best lying scumbags are thought of as sincere. take Obaam for instance although he just never really commits himself to any principal - it's whatever feels good in the moment.

.

Say what? Moi parroting? Surely you jest.

Well, make the rich pay isn't a new idea - but it is always a bad idea.