NDP has Anti-Semite and Racist Candidate

[Kliege]

Post removed due to copyright infringment.

Greg

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Edited June 9, 2004 by Greg

[caesar]

I don't find his remarks racist; there is much truth in them. We are now over protecting all jewish actions. The actions of the government of Israel; escape much valid criticism as everyone is afraid of being called racist. When they disobey international laws and ignore human rights; they are just as guilty as any other race. Racism is attacking others because of their race; it does not mean any Jewish organization or government should escape any honest criticism of their actions. We do not need any hate laws to protect individual groups of people. Libel is already prosecuteable. Any hate laws should not be protecting special groups; it should protect ALL groups from anyone or any group attempting to harm them unfairly or to incite any type of unfair retaliation.

Special laws protecting special groups are racist itself.

[Argus]

I don't find his remarks racist;  there is much truth in them.

They are clearly racist. There is zero truth in them. Just try and turn them around and replace the word "whites" with "Blacks" and tell me how pure they are.

  We are now over protecting all jewish actions.  The actions of the government of Israel; escape much valid criticism as everyone is afraid of being called racist. 

Odd how I see tons and tons of criticism of Israel all the time. Just how much MORE criticism do you think there could be?

When they disobey international laws and ignore human rights; they are just as guilty as any other race.

First off, you are using the term "Jew" as a synonym for "Israeli" and they are not. Second, while Israel no doubt disobeys international laws and violates human rights so do the majority of nations on Earth. The reason Israel receives so much more attention and notice is because of bigotry towards Jews, and because the lefties hate them for being an American allie. If Israel wasn't so tightly associated with the US few of those who criticise them so regularly would give a damn what the do.

[Black Dog]

Second, while Israel no doubt disobeys international laws and violates human rights so do the majority of nations on Earth. The reason Israel receives so much more attention and notice is because of bigotry towards Jews, and because the lefties hate them for being an American allie.

Bullshit. The reason Isreal recieves attention is because it is a self-styled democracy and western ally that is enacting policies reminiscint of a third-world banana republic, and on a large scale. Failure to live up to the basic requirements of a civilized, democratic nations is worth some attention, no?

Opposition to Israeli policies is not, in and of itself, anti-Semitism.

(Edited to add)

Malcom Azania has explained and apologized for his remarks (which were made some 9 years ago in an internet chat room).

Statement.

Ten years ago on an Internet group, I wrote on the topic of white privilege, suggesting that Jewish people, not as individuals but as a group, were on the same side of that privilege. I used the term “white supremacy” to describe that privilege, in the same way I have used the term “male supremacy” to describe male privilege. Men don’t hate women, but we do have more power and wealth than they do in the world. In using the term “supremacy”, I was not talking about hate or violence, but privilege.

Looking back at my remarks now, I realize how completely incorrect, over-generalizing, insensitive and hurtful those remarks were. My use of jargon suggested that folks who aren’t hateful were motivated by hate. That was stupid of me, and I’m horrified I wrote my comments. It’s not an excuse to say I was ten years younger and that I was passing through a brief (and stupid) phase. But it does partly help to show where I was coming from and that I’ve grown up since then.

But if we're digging up skeletons, how about Con candidate James Moore posting anti-gay jokes on UseNet around the same time?

[idealisttotheend]

Opposition to Israeli policies is not, in and of itself, anti-Semitism.

Hear hear. This is a truth too often not heard in the debate over Middle east politics.

[Argus]

Second, while Israel no doubt disobeys international laws and violates human rights so do the majority of nations on Earth. The reason Israel receives so much more attention and notice is because of bigotry towards Jews, and because the lefties hate them for being an American allie.

Bullshit. The reason Isreal recieves attention is because it is a self-styled democracy and western ally that is enacting policies reminiscint of a third-world banana republic, and on a large scale. Failure to live up to the basic requirements of a civilized, democratic nations is worth some attention, no?

Sure is, but the massive, unrelenting, overwhelming attention we see Israel get? More than any other nation on Earth, year after year?

Opposition to Israeli policies is not, in and of itself, anti-Semitism.

Certainly not. I have criticised Israel myself, and I have nothing good to say about Sharon. Still, as someone better with words than I has observed "Not all people who criticise Israel are anti-Semites, but all anti-Semites criticise Israel."

And there is often much hypocrisy in the criticism. A reasonably good example is how the western press joined together to protest to the Israel government that a particular reporter one of the American services had chosen to employ had his press credentials yanked because he was a Palestinian. They were all very self-righteous about this, and reported on it. They did not, however, mention that the Palestinian Authority had banned Israeli journalists from its territory on pain of death.

Syria killed more people in one week in the city of Hama than Israel has killed in the last ten years, but you don't see much criticism or attention given to Syria by these earnest Western "human rights" campaigners.

And btw, I found the reported comments as offensive towards Whites as towards Jews, perhaps more.

[BigGunner]

Malcolm Azania's comments, if not racist, were clearly of low taste.

That said, Layton gets full marks in my books for coming against the comments (even if they were written 10 years ago) and warning that the Edmonton-Strathcona NDP candidate will make full amends to the Jewish community.

[Michael Hardner]

Well, people say stupid things when they're young and radical .

Should they be held accountable for these statements ?

Sure...

Stockwell Day, Stephen Harper included.

[Black Aquinas]

...

[maplesyrup]

Layton Orders Candidate To Meet With Jewish Leaders

New Democratic Party Leader Jack Layton has ordered an Edmonton candidate to meet with Jewish leaders after take part in a process of reconciliation.

Layton says he was deeply disturbed to learn about comments made by Malcolm Azania 10 years ago.

[Bryant]

What About Palestinians-A Nation of Mothers that Teach their sons and daughters to Strap on Bombs and be Terrorists to go into Israel and blow themseves up and their Targets as Martyrs--If we had to endure that as often as Israel Perhaps we would understand--we have very little Terrorism in North America and look how we are affected and reacted and are still reacting to it.........acept 911 which was horrific!Look at the Us reaction and the ensuing war

[BigGunner]

What About Palestinians-A Nation of Mothers that Teach their sons and daughters to Strap on Bombs and be Terrorists to go into Israel and blow themseves up and their Targets as Martyrs--If we had to endure that as often as Israel Perhaps we would understand--we have very little Terrorism in North America and look how we are affected and reacted and are still reacting to it.........acept 911 which was horrific!Look at the Us reaction and the ensuing war

Acts of terrorism and murder are wrong no matter which side is committing it..

Palestinian suicide bombers are no less guilty than Israeli commanders that order troops to bulldose palestinian homes and burn palestinian crops and drop rockets and bombs from the sky and kill off innocent bystanders...

There is no difference in my mind...both sides are using terror to win an unwinnable battle.

[Argus]

Acts of terrorism and murder are wrong no matter which side is committing it..

Palestinian suicide bombers are no less guilty than Israeli commanders that order troops to bulldose palestinian homes and burn palestinian crops and drop rockets and bombs from the sky and kill off innocent bystanders...

There is no difference in my mind...both sides are using terror to win an unwinnable battle.

Uhm, well, personally, I think there is a difference between burning crops and strapping a bomb on your body and walking into a pizza parlor full of dancing teenagers.

I think there's a difference, albiet smaller, between firing a rocket at the car of a terrorist - killing bystanders incidentally - and deliberately targeting children.

Now if the Israelis start indescriminately firing missiles into pizza parlors and restaurants to terrorize Palestinians I'd agree there would be no difference.

[Black Dog]

Syria killed more people in one week in the city of Hama than Israel has killed in the last ten years, but you don't see much criticism or attention given to Syria by these earnest Western "human rights" campaigners.

Amnesty International: Syria

Human Rights Watch: Syria

I think the notion that Israel receives a disproportinate amount of attention from human rights campaigners is a canard. Israel does receieve more attention in the media, howver, for reasons I'm not entirely sure of.

I maintain, however, that a democratic nation of the kind Israel claims to be, should be held to a higher standard than a dictatorship like Syria.

What About Palestinians-A Nation of Mothers that Teach their sons and daughters to Strap on Bombs and be Terrorists to go into Israel and blow themseves up and their Targets as Martyrs--If we had to endure that as often as Israel Perhaps we would understand--we have very little Terrorism in North America and look how we are affected and reacted and are still reacting to it.........acept 911 which was horrific!Look at the Us reaction and the ensuing war

Palestinians deaths outstrip Israeli deaths by a 3 to 1 ratio.

There's a solution: end the military occupation and create a single, secular, egalitarian, democracy for Jews and Palestinians.

Uhm, well, personally, I think there is a difference between burning crops and strapping a bomb on your body and walking into a pizza parlor full of dancing teenagers.

You're a intelligent guy, Argus: surely you can see how one could lead to the other.

I think there's a difference, albiet smaller, between firing a rocket at the car of a terrorist - killing bystanders incidentally - and deliberately targeting children.

The difference is negligible. If you fire a gun into a crowd of people, you can reasonably expect to hit someone and would be considered responsible for any harm caused, as surely as if you were aiming at a specific target , but hit someone else instead.

Similarily, if a helicopter fires high-explosive rockets into a apartment building or at a mosque afte rmorning prayers, there's a reasonable expectation that people other than the intended target will come to harm. Therefore, the people who fired teh rockets (and those who gave the orders to do so) are responsible for harm that comes to any innocent bystanders.

Now if the Israelis start indescriminately firing missiles into pizza parlors and restaurants to terrorize Palestinians I'd agree there would be no difference.

They've fired tank shells and missiles into crowds of demonstrators. Is that close enough?

But this isn't a discussion that belongs here. if anyone wants to continue this in International politics, I'm game.

[Argus]

I maintain, however, that a democratic nation of the kind Israel claims to be, should be held to a higher standard than a dictatorship like Syria.

Why? Try and justify that logically. Justify why the visit by an Israeli leader to Canada or Europe will bring out legions of rioters screaming for blood, while the visit of the Syrian PM will excite no one to protest except a few expatriates. Justify why some universities actually turned down Israeli students or exchange students on the grounds of Israel's actions against Palestinians, yet none turned down Arab or Chinese students, regardless of how vicious and brutal their governments were.

There's a solution: end the military occupation and create a single, secular, egalitarian, democracy for Jews and Palestinians.

Gee, there's a good idea. How about we call it uhm, Yugoslavia. Does that sound good? The name's not in use any more after all. And it would be oh so appropriate.

Uhm, well, personally, I think there is a difference between burning crops and strapping a bomb on your body and walking into a pizza parlor full of dancing teenagers.

You're a intelligent guy, Argus: surely you can see how one could lead to the other.

I can see how poverty leads to crime, too, but I'm not going to excuse the criminals, especially the ones who resort to brutal violence.

[August1991]

I maintain, however, that a democratic nation of the kind Israel claims to be, should be held to a higher standard than a dictatorship like Syria.

Why?

Syria killed more people in one week in the city of Hama than Israel has killed in the last ten years, but you don't see much criticism or attention given to Syria by these earnest Western "human rights" campaigners.

BD, your links are just more links to press releases. Consider this:

The Syrian government death count was place at around 20,000 people dead ... but the Syrian Human Rights Committee estimates it to be much higher, at somewhere between 30,000 to 40,000 civilians dead or missing.

Hama Before and After Photos

Of course, body counts are not the point. And the Muslim Brotherhood are hardly the Boy Scouts.

[Black Dog]

QUOTE 

I maintain, however, that a democratic nation of the kind Israel claims to be, should be held to a higher standard than a dictatorship like Syria.

Why?

Because democracy, by definition, demands respect for human dignity and rights.Because comparing the actions of Israel (a country who's abuses and crimes are facilitated and given tacit approval by the west: that is to say, us) to those of countries like Syria is misleading, as it downplays the significance of abuses and crimes committed by Israel. It becomes a shell game ("Hey look over there! Those guys are worse!") or a comparasin ("Sure , Israel's bad, but they're better than the two bit thugocracy next door.") which doesn't do their cause any favours. After all, I would hope a nation as advanced as Israel, with a stated commitment to liberal democratic values, would at least measure up to the standards of a place like Syria.

I guess the question to ask is: are war crimes and crimes against humanity to be tolerated because it's one of "our guys" that's committing them? Because Israel is a self-styled democracy allied with western interests, we should look away?

In a perfect world, of course, there would be zero tolerance for any abuse of human rights. However, in Israel's case, such abuses are enabled by our own national governments, which is a cause for concern. Western governments need to stop tolerating human rights violations wherever they occur. And they should certainly stop enabling them.

BD, your links are just more links to press releases.

No kidding, seeing as how I linked to the Media Release sections of the web sites.

I wasn't trying to make a comment on anything but the notion that:

Syria killed more people in one week in the city of Hama than Israel has killed in the last ten years, but you don't see much criticism or attention given to Syria by these earnest Western "human rights" campaigners.

The pages I linked to indicate that Syria does get attention from human rights organizations.

[Alliance Fanatic]

I think that left wingers are hypocritical, if a conservative had said that, then he would have been strung up and all of the left wingers on this forum would have been screaming racism. But since a New Democrat did it, that is called constructive criticism.

So BD if people were coming into your backyard, harassing your children, and beating you up you would'nt fight back. I think that Israel has a right to self defense.

[BigGunner]

We are WAY off topic here..

The NDP candidate in Edmonton opened his yap 10 years ago and wrote some very controversial comments. Bigotted or not, they were wrong...he has apologised, and Layton has ordered the fellow to personally make amends with the Jewish community...he didn't waffle on it, he cut to the chase and dealt with it.

On the Israel Vs. Palestine argument that this seems to have evolved into, both sides have blood on their hands. Unless some members are blind or just plain stupid, both sides have done things that would normally constitute a war crime.

Both sides need to stop the killing, and start the talking. Terrorism and counter attacks do little but harden the already hardline positions. One death is too many...no matter if it is Jewish or Islamic blood.

Its also unfair to paint all peoples with one brush. There are a great many Jewish AND Israeli citizens that are completely horrified at the actions of their own government and want a settlement with their palestinian neighbors...likewise, there are Palestinian youth that really are not interested in becoming suicide bombers.

[caesar]

Alliance; obviously you know little of the real problems if you consider all of Israel's actions are based on self defense. Neither is much of the USA's actions honestly based of self defense; as they would have us believe. Big Gunnar has it right. Both sides have committed atrocities and both sides have many people who do not agree with the atrocities of either side.

I disagree with "Hate Laws" that are only for specified groups. Everyone and every group should be equally protected from hate crimes.

[Argus]

We are WAY off topic here..

I agree, but there isn't much to say other than the guy made a racist anti-White, and suspiciously anti-Semetic post ten years ago. Has he grown up and changed? Perhaps. But the Liberals and NDP are doing their best to feed us every word Harper ever said that can be construed badly so I don't see why we should overlook this.

[BigGunner]

We are WAY off topic here..

I agree, but there isn't much to say other than the guy made a racist anti-White, and suspiciously anti-Semetic post ten years ago. Has he grown up and changed? Perhaps. But the Liberals and NDP are doing their best to feed us every word Harper ever said that can be construed badly so I don't see why we should overlook this.

Who is overlooking this?!

The NDP candidate already apologised over this, but Layton already suggested that it isnt good enough and wants the fellow to personally make amends to the Jewish community. What more should be done? Perhaps a public execution in the town square?

What Martin and Layton are doing as far as making Harpers past comments a campaign issue is totally legitimate. Just as it would be fair game for Harper to dig up past inconsistencies on either Layton or Martin. Voters need to make up their minds based on the issues and if Harper has come out in favour of a viewpoint that is opposite to the mainstream of society, then Harpers political adversaries have every right to campaign on that.