Build more prisons now!

[dre]

Individuals who have to steal a million dollars worth of property annually to feed a drug habit are not "petty" criminals. They cost society a fortune. One way or another, they need to be stopped and if they won't take treatment voluntarily, they need to be incarcerated until they will.

Our drug laws not only INCREASE the ammount of drug related property crime, but they drastically reduce the number of people seaking treatment through stigmitization. And they PROBABLY result in higher rates of drug use.

So far theres only one good case study in the world for legalization and thats Portugal.

Portugal had a huge drug crime problem, and drug use problem. They got sick of wasting time on a policy that has consistantly failed EVERYWHERE its been tried, with EVERY SUBSTANCE its been tried on for THOUSANDS of years.

The result?

Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does

Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.

Soft drug use went DOWN...

use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined.

Hard drug use went DOWN...

heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8%

Drug related diseases went DOWN...

New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half.

You know what went UP though? The number of people seaking treatment went THROUGH THE ROOF!!!

In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

It makes really good sense if you think about. Drug addiction is a treatable condition!!! The very WORST thing to do with ANY treatable condition is to stigmitize it or criminalize it so that people are afraid to get help.

And putting an addict in prison is probably the very worst way to treat drug addiction thats possible. And its pretty easy to see why...

Imagine if we put people with bacterial infections in JAIL instead of giving them antibiotics? Bacterial infections would would skyrocket! And that my friends is EXACTLY what we do with drug addicts.

There is almost nothing worse we could do to make the drug problem worse, more prevailent, and more dangerous than what we are already doing now.

Edited September 27, 2010 by dre

[wyly]

Canada problem is not that we dont have enough prisons its OVER-CRIMINALIZATION.

We need to revamp the criminal code, and stop clogging up our courts and jails with petty criminals and soft drug offenses.

Once we do that we can close a lot of the prisons, never mind building new ones.

maybe we could build imaginary prisons for Stockwells imaginary criminals...

[wyly]

There is almost nothing worse we could do to make the drug problem worse, more prevailent, and more dangerous than what we are already doing now.

addiction is an illness...so I have to ask since when did we start putting people in jail for being ill...it makes no sense to me, you would think the conservatives would have learned that from the history of alcohol prohibition...

[dre]

addiction is an illness...so I have to ask since when did we start putting people in jail for being ill...it makes no sense to me, you would think the conservatives would have learned that from the history of alcohol prohibition...

Exactly... So consider the analogy I presented in my post...

Imagine if we put people with bacterial infections in JAIL instead of giving them antibiotics? Bacterial infections would would skyrocket! And that my friends is EXACTLY what we do with drug addicts.

Theres three kinds of people who favor maintaining our existing failed policies.

1. The uninformed, and those naturally presdisposed to not questioning "conventional wisdom".

2. Lawyers (and others that make money from the legal industry.

3. Criminals.

EVERYBODY that supports prohibition falls under one of those three categories. EVERY SINGLE PERSON.

Oops... i forgot to provide a link for my stats about portugal.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

Edited September 27, 2010 by dre

[bush_cheney2004]

I was a hang-em high type of guy and then a terrible thing happened to me. Facts hit me in the face. The US has more than 1% of it's population behind bars. The war on drugs. The three strikes rule....

Relax...you don't live in the USA! It's not terrible...sheesh!

[maple_leafs182]

Wonderful argument but the real problem is drug caused crime not drugs as a crime. What does it matter if an addict is stealing hundreds of thousands in property to buy heavily taxed legal drugs or illegal drugs to feed their habit? Would you accept the legal liability for producing and selling drugs like crystal meth and crack? Do you think any reputable drug company that doesn't want to get sued into oblivion will? As far as taxing pot goes, who is going to buy heavily taxed marijuana when they can grow it in a pot on their patio or deck?

OK, legalize it but if you think government is going to have a windfall, dream on.

Pot should not be taxed...still have the regular sales tax but that's it.

Keeping drugs illegal leads to much crime. We have wittingly created a multi billion dollar industry for gangs. If a gang has a dispute they turn to violence to solve their problems because they can't legally solve their problem. If we really want to hurt gangs and lower street violence we should bankrupt them.

There is also no evidence to support the argument that drug use will increase if it is legalized. Would you do heroin if it was legal tomorrow? There won't be a rise in theft to support habits.

Now we discourage some people from wanting or seeking help for there addictions because drugs are so frowned upon by society. If society was more open to drugs and accepted drug users as part of our society and not just rejects, more people with addiction would be more open and willing to receive help with their addiction.

Portugal legalized many drugs in 2001

The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html#ixzz10haZarjv

Coercion doesn't work to lower use, education on the dangers of drugs will.

Edited September 27, 2010 by maple_leafs182

[Wilber]

There is also no evidence to support the argument that drug use will increase if it is legalized. Would you do heroin if it was legal tomorrow? There won't be a rise in theft to support habits.

Never said it would, just pointing out that people steal to feed an addiction. Makes little difference if the drugs they are stealing to buy are legal or not.

[dre]

Never said it would, just pointing out that people steal to feed an addiction. Makes little difference if the drugs they are stealing to buy are legal or not.

Actually it makes a huge difference, because if drugs were decriminalized the ammount of people seaking treatment for addiction would skyrocket.

[GostHacked]

Never said it would, just pointing out that people steal to feed an addiction. Makes little difference if the drugs they are stealing to buy are legal or not.

I wonder what starts happening when you make a real attempt at curing addiction.

[RNG]

Actually it makes a huge difference, because if drugs were decriminalized the ammount of people seaking treatment for addiction would skyrocket.

Yes. But the prison costs would drop more than the treatment costs according to many studies and actual data from Portugal and Holland. Plus, I believe that if you want to kill yourself with an OD, that is your right. Save us all a bunch.

[dre]

I wonder what starts happening when you make a real attempt at curing addiction.

You dont have to wonder GH, because someone tried it!

Worked fuckin great.

In portugal...

The number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

Portugal moved from criminalization to treatment. Drug use went down. Crime went down. HIV infections went down.

The problem is that the addiction treatment industry isnt as powerfull as the massive prison industry. Theres a huge ammount of people making a boatload of money from criminalization. Everyone from trial lawyers, to organized criminals, to civil servants like policemen and prison guards.

Thats a tough group to take on politically.

[GostHacked]

Yes. But the prison costs would drop more than the treatment costs according to many studies and actual data from Portugal and Holland. Plus, I believe that if you want to kill yourself with an OD, that is your right. Save us all a bunch.

How is suicide actually illegal? I never understood that.

[RNG]

How is suicide actually illegal? I never understood that.

It is illegal for a very good reason. Some dork is on a rooftop wanting to jump. If suicide wasn't illegal, the cops couldn't jump his bones and stop it. Since they made it illegal they can. You can expand the concept to cover other situations, I assume.

[bush_cheney2004]

How is suicide actually illegal? I never understood that.

This is how:

Suicide

Counselling or aiding suicide

241. Every one who

(a) counsels a person to commit suicide, or

(

aids or abets a person to commit suicide,

whether suicide ensues or not, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.

R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 241; R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 7.

[dre]

Yes. But the prison costs would drop more than the treatment costs according to many studies and actual data from Portugal and Holland.

Drugs arent legal in Holland. Thats an urban legend (I know I was just there).

But youre absolutely right. And its not just prison costs that drop, its the massive cost in adjudicating all those cases, and paying enforcement as well.

[GostHacked]

This is how:

Suicide

Counselling or aiding suicide

241. Every one who

(a) counsels a person to commit suicide, or

(

aids or abets a person to commit suicide,

whether suicide ensues or not, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.

R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 241; R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 7.

So how do you convict someone after the deed is done?

[eyeball]

I'm not sure where you are going with this. Do you propose we ban alcohol but legalize other drugs because they are good and alcohol is bad? Do we legalize all drugs and ignore any crimes committed by people who have been diagnosed with fetal alcohol syndrome or any other abnormality caused by drugs? Your parent was a drunk or a druggie so you get a free pass. What?

No, but you should get a whole lot more compassionate treatment. A vindictive sentence in an overcrowded prison cell is just wrong. These people should be in hospitals and treatment centers not prisons.

I was just saying the fact the government sells dope while locking people up for doing dope is perverse.

[GostHacked]

No, but you should get a whole lot more compassionate treatment. A vindictive sentence in an overcrowded prison cell is just wrong. These people should be in hospitals and treatment centers not prisons.

I was just saying the fact the government sells dope while locking people up for doing dope is perverse.

I know that the cost of health care will go up if it's all legalized, many don't want that cost to increase. However, if we are not spending the money on prisons, law enforcement, lawyers and courtrooms for these petty crimes, we will be able to afford to treat everyone with a drug addiction. It will hurt for a short while indeed, but the overall gains are to large to ignore. Several things are solved with legalizing at least weed (for now). Money stops going to criminals, people are treated for their addictions instead of throwing them in jail and eventually to be released. Rinse, repeat. Revolving door. When people are treated for addictions, you will have a much better success ratio of combating drug use. Instead we lock them up, let them out to repeat the offense.

It's a matter of do we want to solve the problem, or continue with the idiocy.

[wyly]

Drugs arent legal in Holland. Thats an urban legend (I know I was just there).

But youre absolutely right. And its not just prison costs that drop, its the massive cost in adjudicating all those cases, and paying enforcement as well.

marijuana has been decriminalized I know I tired some this summer sitting outside a coffee shop just a few doors away the police station...

there are laws for drug use but they're seldom enforced for users but are meant for dealers, importers, manufacturers etc...

Arrests for Drug Offences per 100,000 inhabitants, 1995/1996

Australia-313

Austria-201

Canada-207

Denmark-166

France-134

Germany-229

Netherlands-43

Sweden-100

UK-162

USA-539

Edited September 27, 2010 by wyly

[Wilber]

Pot should not be taxed...still have the regular sales tax but that's it.

Keeping drugs illegal leads to much crime. We have wittingly created a multi billion dollar industry for gangs. If a gang has a dispute they turn to violence to solve their problems because they can't legally solve their problem. If we really want to hurt gangs and lower street violence we should bankrupt them.

There is also no evidence to support the argument that drug use will increase if it is legalized. Would you do heroin if it was legal tomorrow? There won't be a rise in theft to support habits.

Now we discourage some people from wanting or seeking help for there addictions because drugs are so frowned upon by society. If society was more open to drugs and accepted drug users as part of our society and not just rejects, more people with addiction would be more open and willing to receive help with their addiction.

Portugal legalized many drugs in 2001

Coercion doesn't work to lower use, education on the dangers of drugs will.

Why should I pay more than 100% tax on my bottle of wine or single malt while you pay only sales tax on your pot?

Being an addict is not a crime. Victimizing others to support your addiction is. That is why addicts wind up in jail. Perhaps treatment facilities could be incorporated into our prison systems with those there for addiction related crimes kept separate from the general population. You can't force a person to take treatment unless you keep them away from the environment that enables their addiction. You will have to incarcerate them somewhere. Maybe not a prison but somewhere drugs are not available.

Addiction is often called a disease and I suppose it is but unlike other diseases it is possible to choose to be cured. People also choose to be in the drug trade and their apologists choose to keep them in business. A person with cancer cannot choose to be cured, they can only choose to be treated.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Wilber

[guyser]

So how do you convict someone after the deed is done?

In absentia ?

[Wilber]

Now we discourage some people from wanting or seeking help for there addictions because drugs are so frowned upon by society. If society was more open to drugs and accepted drug users as part of our society and not just rejects, more people with addiction would be more open and willing to receive help with their addiction.

Right and the tolerance we show for the addiction of smokers has done wonders to reduce cigarette consumption.

[bloodyminded]

Right and the tolerance we show for the addiction of smokers has done wonders to reduce cigarette consumption.

I take your point, but cigarette addiction is a whole different animal. For a dangerous drug, it's an incredibly slow killer, for one thing. It also doesn't have the stigma of other drugs.

[Wilber]

I take your point, but cigarette addiction is a whole different animal. For a dangerous drug, it's an incredibly slow killer, for one thing. It also doesn't have the stigma of other drugs.

We've stigmatized the crap out of smoking cigarettes. At least in this part of the world.

[bloodyminded]

We've stigmatized the crap out of smoking cigarettes. At least in this part of the world.

I know; I was a smoker recently enough to be well aware.

But there's no comnparison to, say, meth or heroin users. Whole different ballgame, in terms of stigmatization as well as every other factor you can think of.