Quebec Arenas & Toronto Summits

[waldo]

My feeling is that the Conservatives will turn thumbs down on any federal financing of any venue where professional sports is concerned.

and yet... the Quebec Harper Conservatives were out in full force... wearing the old Nordiques uniforms. Isn't Harper able to control his rogue Quebec MPs?

[Guy M]

I have no problem with the feds gifting $200 million to a Quebec City arena. Alberta will just reduce the $8 billion in kiss ass money that Quebec gets now every single year, net out at $7.8 billion next years welfare payments. Oops forgot the $200 million that the province of Quebec is 'contributing' of course every cent of that comes from Alberta too- net at $7.6 billion now.

Then.... damn, forgot the $50 million Quebec City is supposedly kicking i9n, all that will come from the provincial govt or actually Alberta too, now we are down to $7.55 billion for next years Gravy Train Express.

Unless of course the same contractors who built the Big Owe get involved......

Quebec does not receive 8BN from Alberta, but from the federal goverment. If you were to break that amount down actually, Ontario transfers the most wealth to Quebec through equalization, as ~40% of all federal revenu comes from Ontario.

Anyway on the arena and all theses talks about principles, there are no principles in politics; only interests. The same principles for funding this arena, and not giving money to private interests, would have applied for the GM bailout. Of course that went through without controversy because benefiting Ontario is not pandering, it's for "the good of the nation". The conservatives will simply fund it if it benefits them politically, and won't if it will cost them seats.

They are probably doing this math right now....

Edited September 13, 2010 by Guy M

[PIK]

The money spent on the gun registry and the 600 million lost over the hele deal would have put stadiums right across this country. One thing about stadiums is at least you see what you are getting. It creates jobs ,pride and unity,especially if we had CFL teams in ottawa quebec city and the maritimes.Now I am all for CFL getting govermnet help, but I to have a problem with the salaries of the nhl players, and building stadiums for them.

[PIK]

and yet... the Quebec Harper Conservatives were out in full force... wearing the old Nordiques uniforms. Isn't Harper able to control his rogue Quebec MPs?

You must be thinking iggy who whips his people into order. Edited September 13, 2010 by PIK

[capricorn]

You must be thinking iggy who whips his people into order.

Except for the free pass he gave Liberal MPs from Newfoundland.

[waldo]

My feeling is that the Conservatives will turn thumbs down on any federal financing of any venue where professional sports is concerned.

and yet... the Quebec Harper Conservatives were out in full force... wearing the old Nordiques uniforms. Isn't Harper able to control his rogue Quebec MPs?

Except for the free pass he gave Liberal MPs from Newfoundland.

hmmm... your latest reply seems to have nothing to do with your expressed 'feeling' post... in the face of that smiling band of Harper's merriest QC MPs, wearing the Nordique uniforms, still sticking with your 'feeling' that Harper Conservatives won't fund the Quebec City arena?

[BubberMiley]

My feeling is that the Conservatives will turn thumbs down on any federal financing of any venue where professional sports is concerned.

Your "feelings" are derived more from blind partisanship than reality. They pledged similar support in Winnipeg over two years ago.

http://findarticles.com/p/news-articles/winnipeg-free-press/mi_8029/is_20080124/board-stadium-toews-meeting/ai_n42609346/

How does that feel?

[capricorn]

Your "feelings" are derived more from blind partisanship than reality.

This is what Harper said today.

Speaking to reporters in Sept-Îles on Monday, the prime minister said his government has been clear that professional sports are important to communities but are "first and foremost the responsibility of the private sector."

"If there is to be any role for the federal government, first of all, that role would have to be equitable across the country, treat everybody the same, and it also has to be affordable, recognizing that this country is going to be moving into a period of fiscal restraint," Harper said.

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/09/13/harper-quebec-arena.html

Rather than an outright "no" to Quebec, Harper is sending a message to all regions that the government does not intend to fund professional sports. The way he worded the refusal, it's plain he hopes it will be better received in the Quebec media and Quebecers.

If Quebec City and the province want an NHL arena, either they will have to recruit private sector investers or the province will have to subsidize it entirely. In post #6 at the top of this thread I said that I'm against federal funds going into this venture. This makes my opinion partisan? Fine by me. If you feel the need to look under the bed for monsters, knock yourself out.

[BubberMiley]

Rather than an outright "no" to Quebec, Harper is sending a message to all regions that the government does not intend to fund professional sports.

More accurately, when he feels the heat of negative media attention, he sends the message that the government does not intend to fund professional sports.

Meanwhile, his commitment to help build a new stadium for the Bombers is in place because there was no outcry and he thought it could win them votes.

[August1991]

A quick read through this thread depresses me. Do you people understand/read English?

----

The federal government recently spent 1 billion dollars plus on a three day summit in Toronto/Huntsville that seems to have included fake lakes, paved roads, police overtime and God-knows-what else (including, I think, a local arena or two). I raised this point in the OP.

And yet, all the subsequent posts seem to be about why Quebec should not get federal money for an arena, or variations on the theme. As I say, where was Bernier when Harper blew the billion on his Ontario G8 limo party?

This is not about government spending; this is about Quebec bashing.

[i have some sympathy for posters in Alberta: Toronto, Quebec City, Huntsville - what's the difference? It's fun to spend other people's money.]

Edited September 14, 2010 by August1991

[William Ashley]

The federal government spent over $1 billion on a three day summit in Toronto.

When it is mooted that the federal government spend less than $200 million on an arena in Quebec City, all the usual suspects object.

IMHO, at least we'd get an arena for our efforts, in a city where many Canadians go as tourists. Heck, if the federal government put in money, it would have bilingual signs.

What did we get for the $1.2 billion summit in Toronto? A fake lake and paved roads in Huntsville.

----

I am the first to object to government spending, but I see alot of Quebec bashing in comments about this arena proposal.

I firmly beleive that the amount of money is not the question. The real questions are as follows. The answers follow them.

Question 1. Does the government have money.

Answer 1. No, the government is running deficits and the country is in debt billions and bilions of dollars.

THAT RIGHT THERE SHOULD END THIS.

Question 2.) How long will the investment take to pay off?

Answer 2.) I have no idea, can someone supply this information?

Question 3.) Should the government do this type of stuff?

Answer 3.) Sports teams CAN make a lot of money, leasing out sports hosting space can also make money BUT, the government should not just GIVE this money away. The government should consider every penny they spend as an investment into Canada, and the well being of the federal government.

Question 4.) Can a 200 million dollar investment actually be good?

Answer 4.) Yes, but only if it has a net return, or the government has a stake that will bring back lasting benefits, not only in tax dollars, but in direct investment return such as via a termed loan, much like what a bank may be able to offer, the difference is, the government benefits on the interest instead of a bank.

G8/G20 1 billion dollar summit does not look rational - but it looked like a way to artifically boost up security companies resources, and police and military resources, off their regular budgets. I am guessing there was a lot of wasteful spending, and no one will ever, not even the auditor general, see really where all that money actually went. 1 billion dollars is a lot of money.

[William Ashley]

my answer on this is...

if the numbers add up, do it to it.

The build it an they will come mentality is a little faux though.

[capricorn]

More accurately, when he feels the heat of negative media attention, he sends the message that the government does not intend to fund professional sports.

You appear surprised that a politician would act like a politician. This is a replay of what I've seen over the course of many years.

In 2007, Manitoba Progressive Conservative Leader Hugh McFadyen, in a bid to wow voters, did the exact same thing. He organized a photo opportunity where he put on a Winnipeg Jets jersey and even got former Jet great Thomas Steen to pose with him. Like the Quebec Tories, he made vague promises about taxpayer support for efforts to lure the NHL back to Winnipeg. And then he watched his campaign evaporate out from under him. Sure, there were quite a few Winnipeggers who liked his shtick, but there were many more who thought it was foolish. It is now accepted that the Jets stunt was a horrible mistake.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/columnists/tories-nuts-if-they-fund-quebec-arena-102757369.html

It's a spin move worthy of the most agile skater in the NHL. Three days ago, industry minister John Manley announced a plan to subsidize NHL teams in order to keep them in Canada. Today, after overwhelming public criticism, the plan is put on ice. As we see in this clip, opponents of subsidies are calling the reversal a victory for taxpayers. But team owners are threatening to get out the "for sale" signs.

http://archives.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/clips/11354/

Check out the video on the above site that explains the Manley and Liberal Party backtrack on NHL funding.

Meanwhile, his commitment to help build a new stadium for the Bombers is in place because there was no outcry and he thought it could win them votes.

Please provide a link that Harper committed to help fund a new stadium in Winnipeg. And yes, I did read the link you provided and it doesn't have any reference to Harper.

[capricorn]

A quick read through this thread depresses me.

I guess it did not unfold as you hoped.

Do you people understand/read English?

Only those who don't read the Sun.

This is not about government spending; this is about Quebec bashing.

As you know August, there will always be Quebec bashing in the ROC. I guess right now many posters are more interested in Tory bashing.

I've read a lot of comments by Quebecers in media stories on the arena business. The vast majority don't look to me they feel they're being bashed. They sound like ordinary taxpayers debating whether governments should fund venues that would house professional sports.

[August1991]

As you know August, there will always be Quebec bashing in the ROC. I guess right now many posters are more interested in Tory bashing.

Uh, no.

When the federal government spends 1 billion in Toronto/Ontario, on a 3 day summit, the English MSM/Internet world quibbles but accepts it.

It's different when the federal government considers spending 200 million on an arena in Quebec.

----

As I say often, regionalism not ideology drives federal politics in Canada.

Edited September 14, 2010 by August1991

[Shwa]

A quick read through this thread depresses me. Do you people understand/read English?

So that is it?? Maybe you ought to do a 'slow' and 'careful' read of the English and not gloss over the stuff that counteracts the whiney tone of your OP? Just a suggestion that might keep the depression away.

----

The federal government recently spent 1 billion dollars plus on a three day summit in Toronto/Huntsville that seems to have included fake lakes, paved roads, police overtime and God-knows-what else (including, I think, a local arena or two). I raised this point in the OP.

And I answered you. It was a billion dollar injection of money into the local economy, one that is about 10 to 20 times larger than Quebec City. Or did you gloss that over and not make the connection between "fake lakes, paved roads, police overtime and God-knows-what" and job creation, goods and services, etc.?

And yet, all the subsequent posts seem to be about why Quebec should not get federal money for an arena, or variations on the theme. As I say, where was Bernier when Harper blew the billion on his Ontario G8 limo party?

This is not about government spending; this is about Quebec bashing.

This is the exact sort of whining that makes so many Quebeckers look so provinciale. Quebec City is quaint with its historic ramparts and Bon'homme. Toronto is cosmopolitan and world class and has ten times the population. Do you have some sort of proof that it is any other way? As I wrote earlier, Quebec City getting a nice rink and an NHL team would be awesome, despite the fact that it might never good enough. The Feds redistributing some of the wealth to do is is fine by me. The sooner the better. (And hopefully they will focus on developing players out of the Q and creating teams like the old Habs used to)

[i have some sympathy for posters in Alberta: Toronto, Quebec City, Huntsville - what's the difference? [i]It's fun to spend other people's money[/i].]

You mean like all those transfer payments over the past 20 years? I mean, gawd, August, you are asking for it and you complain when others oblige you?

[BubberMiley]

You appear surprised that a politician would act like a politician. This is a replay of what I've seen over the course of many years.

Please provide a link that Harper committed to help fund a new stadium in Winnipeg. And yes, I did read the link you provided and it doesn't have any reference to Harper.

So politicians are politicians, and that's okay, and the Liberals would have probably done it too, but just in case you're holding out hope that Toews is spending money on stadiums without Harper knowing?

Party-bots are hilarious.

[Michael Hardner]

Party-bots are hilarious.

I think that I have never seen that amusing term used: party-bots.

Derision is a powerful tool, so let's use it.

[capricorn]

deleted

Edited September 14, 2010 by capricorn

[capricorn]

So politicians are politicians, and that's okay,

Your surprise that politicians act like politicians is immature.

and the Liberals would have probably done it too,

In fact they did. Re-read my post about Manley. I also provided an example of the PC Party in Manitoba. You think that is singling out the Liberals?

but just in case you're holding out hope that Toews is spending money on stadiums without Harper knowing?

Do you have a problem with facts? Toews has not and is not spending money on stadiums period.

Party-bots are hilarious.

Yes you are.

And where is that link to back up your assertion that Harper promised to help fund a new stadium for the Bombers in Winnipeg?

[capricorn]

I think that I have never seen that amusing term used: party-bots.

Derision is a powerful tool, so let's use it.

What are you suggesting exactly with "let's use" derision?

[Michael Hardner]

What are you suggesting exactly with "let's use" derision?

People who slavishly devote their lives to the brand identity that is the party system should be branded as PartyBots...

[BubberMiley]

Do you have a problem with facts? Toews has not and is not spending money on stadiums period.

And where is that link to back up your assertion that Harper promised to help fund a new stadium for the Bombers in Winnipeg?

I gave you the link from when Toews made the commitment to chip in to build a new stadium for the Bombers. Harper must have been onboard because he never indicated any disagreement with Toews' announcement. They have not reneged on that promise, and Toews showed up at the

earlier this summer. The project is a go, and it's public knowledge around these parts.

I'm sorry that doesn't fit in with your programmed talking points.

And BTW, if I were a party-bot myself, I would support at least one party. I don't particularly care for any of them.

[Shwa]

I gave you the link from when Toews made the commitment to chip in to build a new stadium for the Bombers. Harper must have been onboard because he never indicated any disagreement with Toews' announcement. They have not reneged on that promise, and Toews showed up at the

earlier this summer. The project is a go, and it's public knowledge around these parts.

I'm sorry that doesn't fit in with your programmed talking points.

And BTW, if I were a party-bot myself, I would support at least one party. I don't particularly care for any of them.

Not to mention all those other arenas and stadiums in smaller communities that are getting slick new retrofits (or brand new facilities) through the Infrastructure Canada Program.

[fellowtraveller]

Quebec does not receive 8BN from Alberta, but from the federal goverment

just a coincidence that AB kicks in roughly $8 billion every year, Quiebec gets about $8 billion every year.