Gun Control

[punked]

More people die from knife attacks a year in Canada then Long guns. Like it or not that is a fact.

[DrGreenthumb]

How exactly is my long gun going to help me defend my chicken coop from coyotes, or blast the rabid skunk that keeps spraying my dogs if I have to run down to the central armoury to pick it up whenever I need it? That makes no sense at all. If we all get bows and arrows will we need to store them there as well? Guns are a tool just like any other tool.

[GostHacked]

How exactly is my long gun going to help me defend my chicken coop from coyotes, or blast the rabid skunk that keeps spraying my dogs if I have to run down to the central armoury to pick it up whenever I need it? That makes no sense at all. If we all get bows and arrows will we need to store them there as well? Guns are a tool just like any other tool.

Some tools are more dangerous than others, and just need qualified people trained in operation and safety. If my guys were not properly trained on how to operate a 3 ton forklift properly, they would be just as dangerous as an untrained person with a gun.

You need to know how to use those tools effectively and safely. Education is KEY here. Always has been, but seems to get left in the dirt and ignored when the gun problem arises. I guess when people scream gun control they just don't understand how much of a factor proper education and training can eliminate a good chunk of these issues and problems.

How many people die on the construction site due to failing to follow safety protocols/regulations. Ignorance will get you killed. Any workplace with heavy equipment always talks about safety first. If people maintain that safety mentality when holding a firearm. You will see a dramatic decrease in gun related incidents.

[Wild Bill]

How many people die on the construction site due to failing to follow safety protocols/regulations. Ignorance will get you killed. Any workplace with heavy equipment always talks about safety first. If people maintain that safety mentality when holding a firearm. You will see a dramatic decrease in gun related incidents.

Ah GH, you might be pulling an "Emily Litella" here. Did you think that there never were any safety courses?

From what I remember when hunting with friends years ago, long before the Liberal gun registry, in order to buy a rifle you had to first get a Fire Arms Certificate, or FAC. In order to get that certificate, a safety course was MANDATORY!

Of course, as some posters have explicitly explained to us, folks back then were notoriously uneducated so I guess it doesn't matter anyway. Obviously, quality education didn't begin until they were born...

[Molly]

It's funny because, he doesn't normally talk like that, so one has to wonder who he is trying to impress with his "wild west" act. I was waiting for a Deliverance style dueling banjo's and for him to tell "Woody" to "squeal like a pig", lol.

Oh, really?

[eyeball]

So I take it Marc Lepine is no longer an issue?

Okay then, I'll stop worrying about controlling guns.

Where can I get a couple? Are the answers to this FAC safety course something I can pull off the Internet, is it any harder than acquiring a Small Vessel Operators Certificate? I've heard these practically come in Cracker Jack boxes. Anyone can get one.

[GostHacked]

Ah GH, you might be pulling an "Emily Litella" here. Did you think that there never were any safety courses?

From what I remember when hunting with friends years ago, long before the Liberal gun registry, in order to buy a rifle you had to first get a Fire Arms Certificate, or FAC. In order to get that certificate, a safety course was MANDATORY!

Of course, as some posters have explicitly explained to us, folks back then were notoriously uneducated so I guess it doesn't matter anyway. Obviously, quality education didn't begin until they were born...

I am aware of the courses. But people don't seem to take that into account when it comes to getting a firearm. There are assumtions that people can't handle and be responsible with a firearm. The gun is only seen as a threat to those who want a registry because those are the people that should not be given a gun anyways

I think my post backs your statement up. Because education on firearms is effective.

[segnosaur]

So I take it Marc Lepine is no longer an issue?

Ummm... who said Lepine is no longer an issue?

Yes, what he did was tragic. But then tragedies happen on a regular basis with those who drive drunk/irresponsibly, or who have swimming pools where people drown. You can't eliminate all risks; there will always be a trade off between risk and enjoyment/convenience. Why does the death of (for example) David Hudson or Alexa Middelaer (both killed by drunk drivers) matter less than the individuals killed by Lepine?

I've asked this before, and you have avoided answering the question....Why the double standard? Why are you so worried about the relatively small risk that comes from firearms stored at home, yet you have not called for private ownership/storage of automobiles and residential pools to be banned (since in both cases, 'safer' alternatives exist.)

Oh, and before you try repeating the same debunked argument about how you want "self driving cars", once again that technology is years if not decades away... yet we can help those killed or injured by drunk drivers, by those who use cars in the commission of crimes, or those who drown in unsupervised backyard pools now.

So, why the double standard?

Edited to add:... One other question... how exactly is your plan to 'keep all guns in a central armory' supposed to stop things like the Montreal shootings? After all, Lepine could have gone and signed out his firearms, claiming he was going for target practice.

Edited September 9, 2010 by segnosaur

[eyeball]

Ummm... who said Lepine is no longer an issue?

Yes, what he did was tragic. But then tragedies happen on a regular basis with those who drive drunk/irresponsibly, or who have swimming pools where people drown. You can't eliminate all risks; there will always be a trade off between risk and enjoyment/convenience. Why does the death of (for example) David Hudson or Alexa Middelaer (both killed by drunk drivers) matter less than the individuals killed by Lepine?

As I recall guns were to be afforded special consideration when it comes to control because they lend themselves so well to expressing rage and garnering the attention people like Marc Lepine crave. Swimming pools just don't do that.

I've asked this before, and you have avoided answering the question....Why the double standard? Why are you so worried about the relatively small risk that comes from firearms stored at home, yet you have not called for private ownership/storage of automobiles and residential pools to be banned (since in both cases, 'safer' alternatives exist.)

I guess I subscribe to the idea that guns do warrant special consideration because of their inherent ability to convey rage in such a graphic fearful manner.

Oh, and before you try repeating the same debunked argument about how you want "self driving cars", once again that technology is years if not decades away... yet we can help those killed or injured by drunk drivers, by those who use cars in the commission of crimes, or those who drown in unsupervised backyard pools now.

So, why the double standard?

Well, for starters cars are registered and further special consideration is given through driver licensing because of the danger they pose but again cars are not guns so treating them the exact same way seems silly. Now that said, breathalyzer ignition interlocks could have prevented the deaths you mentioned. Radio or cell phone interlock systems are also available so police can take control of vehicles remotely. There is a lot of technology on the shelf right now that could prevent the deaths you keep citing concern for. I've mentioned these in similar threads as well as things like GPS chips in guns so police can track the whereabouts of guns that have been signed out, I'm quite certain guns could likewise be fitted with GPS trigger locks. Of course these suggestion fall on deaf ears too.

Edited to add:... One other question... how exactly is your plan to 'keep all guns in a central armory' supposed to stop things like the Montreal shootings? After all, Lepine could have gone and signed out his firearms, claiming he was going for target practice.

GPS activated trigger locks. In fact now that I think about it these could eliminate the need for armouries.

As for double standards and given how FAC's and safety training are all that's required to keep us safe from firearms can we expect calls for swimming pool acquisition certificates and training? What about knives or...stair ways? Do you have any idea how dangerous they can be in the wrong feet?

Edited September 10, 2010 by eyeball

[capricorn]

Why does the death of (for example) David Hudson or Alexa Middelaer (both killed by drunk drivers) matter less than the individuals killed by Lepine?

They don't. Each of those deaths are deplorable.

If Lepine had killed one woman per month for 14 months, it would have been the work of a serial killer. What he did is kill the women in one solitary act, hence we term it a massacre. The public's reaction is infinitely different in the face of both those scenarios and they engender different types of hysteria. The same can be said of a government's response to that public reaction. If Lepine had in fact been a serial type killer, I doubt the government of the day would have devised the present gun registry to appease the most vocal among the populace.

[Molly]

So I take it Marc Lepine is no longer an issue?

In any world where reason holds sway, he never was.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/06/chris-selley-s-full-pundit-but-but-marc-lepine.aspx

It is true, of course, that the long gun registry followed Marc Lepine’s rampage at the École Polytechnique — but it’s never been clear that this was a logical response, so it’s not enough to just invoke the event and rest one’s case,

Edited September 10, 2010 by Molly

[eyeball]

They don't. Each of those deaths are deplorable.

If Lepine had killed one woman per month for 14 months, it would have been the work of a serial killer. What he did is kill the women in one solitary act, hence we term it a massacre. The public's reaction is infinitely different in the face of both those scenarios and they engender different types of hysteria. The same can be said of a government's response to that public reaction. If Lepine had in fact been a serial type killer, I doubt the government of the day would have devised the present gun registry to appease the most vocal among the populace.

Myself, I would have used a different term than hysteria in the context of a massacre of women but ce la vie...Wikipedia describes the state of hysteria as being; people who are "hysterical" often lose self-control due to...overwhelming fear.

So the problem is government reaction to public hysteria? These days I'd be just as worried about public reaction to government hysteria. There's a lot of that going on too.

[eyeball]

In any world where reason holds sway, he never was.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/06/chris-selley-s-full-pundit-but-but-marc-lepine.aspx

It is true, of course, that the long gun registry followed Marc Lepine’s rampage at the École Polytechnique — but it’s never been clear that this was a logical response, so it’s not enough to just invoke the event and rest one’s case,

If you scan back up the thread you'll see I pointed out the illogic of this registry several posts ago but other things from the article you linked to caught my eye.

All that aside, it’s just so depressing to read another column that treats the issue as nothing but a political football.

Both sides of the debate have kicked this football around. The Conservatives have used it as a segue to its solutions to crime, the source of their hysteria, and this quote from your link speaks to the illogic of crime prevention vis a vis something like prohibition in the same way it speaks to the illogic of registry.

We totally agree with the National Post’s Matt Gurney that this is the prototypical Canadian fiasco: a government tries, misguidedly, to legislate away a problem; it then forever trumpets the misguided legislation as proof of its “determination to fix [the problem],” regardless of results; and Canadians end up “so obsessed with debating the pros and cons of the current system that they have no energy left to pursue better options.”

Speaking of hysteria I also worry about the wisdom of not having better control over guns during a time when so much racial and cultural hysteria are also on the rise, but then I also worry about not owning a bunch of guns in case the government's hysteria causes it to lose control. Other's worry about not having a gun to defend themselves from all the criminals that exist.

What was that you said about a world where reason holds sway? Such a place actually exists?

[Topaz]

The RCMP report said long guns killed more people than other weapons. What about the killing of those RCMP's out west a couple years ago. It wasn't hand guns was it? Another point, I read an article that talked about how Harper whipping up the country over this and the census to tell his supporters , well, it you don't want the registry or the long form census, give me a MAJORITY! My question is what can't he do now that he wants to do very badly??

[fellowtraveller]

So I take it Marc Lepine is no longer an issue?

Okay then, I'll stop worrying about controlling guns.

Where can I get a couple? Are the answers to this FAC safety course something I can pull off the Internet, is it any harder than acquiring a Small Vessel Operators Certificate? I've heard these practically come in Cracker Jack boxes. Anyone can get one.

Lepine had a licensed weapon obtained by himself legally.

He could do the same thing today under the gun registry system, nothing would prevent him from getting an FAC and buyiong legal weapons.

He planned his attack for several months. It was centered around killing women he saw as feminists, not about buying guns and using them. If he had not been able to get guns, he'd have done the same thing with one of the many other ways to bring death to many.

[eyeball]

Lepine had a licensed weapon obtained by himself legally.

He could do the same thing today under the gun registry system, nothing would prevent him from getting an FAC and buyiong legal weapons.

He planned his attack for several months. It was centered around killing women he saw as feminists, not about buying guns and using them. If he had not been able to get guns, he'd have done the same thing with one of the many other ways to bring death to many.

Hey I stand convinced and converted. Everyone should be armed with a gun or whatever else they feel they need to defend themselves at a moments notice. It's obvious the only way to deter the Marc Lepine's of the world is to arm everyone. Is there any reason whatsoever to believe mandatory sentencing would have done anything?

Anyone know where I can get my hands on some grenades?

[Moonlight Graham]

Ban all guns except long barreled guns used by hunters, and those used by police and military.

Problem solved!

[yarg]

Hey I stand convinced and converted. Everyone should be armed with a gun or whatever else they feel they need to defend themselves at a moments notice. It's obvious the only way to deter the Marc Lepine's of the world is to arm everyone. Is there any reason whatsoever to believe mandatory sentencing would have done anything?

Anyone know where I can get my hands on some grenades?

my god your pathetic

[Molly]

Agreed.

[Argus]

The RCMP report said long guns killed more people than other weapons. What about the killing of those RCMP's out west a couple years ago. It wasn't hand guns was it?

It must have been, because, after all, the registry was in full force, and the registry prevents incidents like that from happening. That's what it's FOR, after all.

Oh wait, hand guns are registered too. I guess it must have been rocks or knives used. Because with a registry no one is going to be misusing firearms.

[eyeball]

my god your pathetic

Agreed.

So how do we prevent the Lepine's of the world?

[Argus]

So how do we prevent the Lepine's of the world?

I don't know but I know this won't do it.

Realistically, as someone who is a supporter of gun control. I would like to try implementing the following measures:

1. All assault type weapons would be banned.

2. In urban settings, hunting weapons would be stored at well guarded locations on the edge of town, along the highways heading out. All handguns used for target shooting would be stored at the site. There would be no private collections of working firearms.

3. Extremely heavy handed laws put in place for anyone found buying, selling, possessing or carrying an illegal firearm. Smuggling a firearm into Canada would draw an automatic 10 year term on a first offense. Life on any subsequent offense. Using a firearm in the commission of any crime would carry an automatic 10 year addition to the sentence with no parole - on the first offense. Life without parole on any subsequent offense.

4. Federal funding for police sting teams with no other purpose but to attempt to purchase weapons illegally.

Firearms offenses would be non-bailable and tried in special courts.

[fellowtraveller]

So how do we prevent the Lepine's of the world?

You cannot stop the Marc Lepines.

Period.

[Molly]

Realistically, as someone who is a supporter of gun control. I would like to try implementing the following measures:

1. All assault...

....4. Federal funding for police sting teams with no other purpose but to attempt to purchase weapons illegally.

Firearms offenses would be non-bailable and tried in special courts.

I would argue against most of those with varying degrees of vehemence... but almost ANY part of it would do more to prevent another Marc Lepine than the registry does.

[Topaz]

Long guns can and do kill people just like any gun will. Just take a farmer or hunter who suddenly finds himself/herself very angry with someone and want to kill them. Are they going to go out and buy a hand gun? No. They take their rifle and do the job. I would think, by registering the gun, they won't be able to get rid of it without explaining to the police were the gun is.By registering it, there's a record and this would also take care of those who buy guns from each other.