First the Berlin Wall - Now Iran?

[nicky10013]

You guys are forgetting the real reason of the Soviet collapse.

God bless that man!

Bahahahah. The best thing Reagan did was nothing. He deliberately sat back and let Gorbachev do the work he did. The US had absolutely nothing to do with the collapse of the USSR.

[Jack Weber]

I would say that Pope John Paul II had as much,if not more,to do with the fall of the Soviet empire in Europe than President Reagan.Reagan might have had the military might,but he could never say he had the moral authority.For every Soviet atrocity Reagan could rightly throw at the Soviets,they could easily throw back Fascist regimes the US propped up to stop the spread of Moscow's reach.

The Pope could rightly call out the Soviets on the moral deficiencies of Marxism.He was instrumental in fomenting support for the Solidarity movement in Poland.After surviving the assassination attempt by Mehmet Ali-Agca,he shed alot of light on the murderous orders of the Kremlin.He had a huge secret following by Orthodox Church members who worshipped in secret in Russia.

The Soviets and the US could have killed each other 100 times over because of each's military might,but neither could rightly claim any real moral high ground.The Pope lined up on the side of humanity having the freedom to decide for themselves,and therefore,had the moral authority that trumped the Soviet/US military standoff,and could speak over top of the heads of the reasective powers.

[Shady]

I would say that Pope John Paul II had as much,if not more,to do with the fall of the Soviet empire in Europe than President Reagan

Wow, I actually agree. I guess every 100 posts you manage to get something correct. Well done!

[DogOnPorch]

Chernobyl was one of yer top 10 reasons for the fall of the Soviet Union. Even now it comes back to haunt.

[nicky10013]

I would say that Pope John Paul II had as much,if not more,to do with the fall of the Soviet empire in Europe than President Reagan.Reagan might have had the military might,but he could never say he had the moral authority.For every Soviet atrocity Reagan could rightly throw at the Soviets,they could easily throw back Fascist regimes the US propped up to stop the spread of Moscow's reach.

The Pope could rightly call out the Soviets on the moral deficiencies of Marxism.He was instrumental in fomenting support for the Solidarity movement in Poland.After surviving the assassination attempt by Mehmet Ali-Agca,he shed alot of light on the murderous orders of the Kremlin.He had a huge secret following by Orthodox Church members who worshipped in secret in Russia.

The Soviets and the US could have killed each other 100 times over because of each's military might,but neither could rightly claim any real moral high ground.The Pope lined up on the side of humanity having the freedom to decide for themselves,and therefore,had the moral authority that trumped the Soviet/US military standoff,and could speak over top of the heads of the reasective powers.

He certainly had an influence in fomenting different groups opposed to communist rule in Eastern Europe, however, I think we're forgetting that the governments had put down revolutionary movements, especially solidarity, in the early 1980s. Solidarity came back when they realized Gorbachev wouldn't support the oppression of popular revolt. If it wasn't for Gorbachev, none of it would've happened.

[nicky10013]

Chernobyl was one of yer top 10 reasons for the fall of the Soviet Union. Even now it comes back to haunt.

Chernobyl was a symptom of the problems facing the USSR, not necessarily a cause of problems itself. Certainly it had a horrible effect on the Ukraine, but it blew up because of the system, not the other way around.

[DogOnPorch]

Chernobyl was a symptom of the problems facing the USSR, not necessarily a cause of problems itself. Certainly it had a horrible effect on the Ukraine, but it blew up because of the system, not the other way around.

If you don't think that had an effect on things...oh well.

[bush_cheney2004]

Chernobyl was a symptom of the problems facing the USSR, not necessarily a cause of problems itself. Certainly it had a horrible effect on the Ukraine, but it blew up because of the system, not the other way around.

Chernobyl actually hastened the changes that you have championed and credited to Gorbachov. The disaster forced shut much of the open policies that were developing, but the world demanded access to information given the nature of the event and resources required.

[Shady]

If you don't think that had an effect on things...oh well.

What do you expect from a communist kiss-ass who gives Gorby most of the credit for the fall of the Soviet Union.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn9cXXznG8o

The second joke is my favourite!

[bush_cheney2004]

If you don't think that had an effect on things...oh well.

....who needs a containment building!! Too expensive comrade.

[DogOnPorch]

....who needs a containment building!! Too expensive comrade.

The equivalent of a hydrogen bomb goes off in the Pripyat...but has no effect on those in charge. No sir...lol.

[nicky10013]

Chernobyl actually hastened the changes that you have championed and credited to Gorbachov. The disaster forced shut much of the open policies that were developing, but the world demanded access to information given the nature of the event and resources required.

Yeah, but Gorbachev had these changes in mind far before Chernobyl. Did it speed it up? Sure, but it wouldn't have changed the end result.

[nicky10013]

What do you expect from a communist kiss-ass who gives Gorby most of the credit for the fall of the Soviet Union.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn9cXXznG8o

The second joke is my favourite!

So, if it wasn't Gorbachev's policies that caused the collapse? What was it?

[nicky10013]

The equivalent of a hydrogen bomb goes off in the Pripyat...but has no effect on those in charge. No sir...lol.

Why would it have an effect? Most of the guys who served on the politburo were old Stalinists responsible for repressions which killed far more innocent than Chernobyl ever could. The reformers already wanted to reform before Chernobyl. Chernobyl wasn't a light switch that changed the Soviet Union in an instant. The old guys didn't care and for the younger guys, it only served to entrench their beliefs the system was broken.

Edited August 23, 2010 by nicky10013

[DogOnPorch]

Why would it have an effect? Most of the guys who served on the politburo were old Stalinists responsible for repressions which killed far more innocent than Chernobyl ever could. The reformers already wanted to reform before Chernobyl. Chernobyl wasn't a light switch that changed the Soviet Union in an instant. The old guys didn't care and for the younger guys, it only served to entrench their beliefs the system was broken.

Now...go back and see my original reference to Chernobyl. Pick nine others...

[nicky10013]

Now...go back and see my original reference to Chernobyl. Pick nine others...

It wasn't a top 10 reason, though. It had an effect but no where near what you're giving it. Like I said, what was happening was already happening. You're essentially taking what would be a western reaction to the tragedy and applying it to an authoritarian state. At that point, the USSR still employed censorship and few citizens actually heard that there had been an accident. As for the leaders, like I said, a lot of them already had quite a bit of blood on their hand. Why would they care? The reformers were already reformers.

Edited August 23, 2010 by nicky10013

[DogOnPorch]

It wasn't a top 10 reason, though. It had an effect but no where near what you're giving it. Like I said, what was happening was already happening. You're essentially taking what would be a western reaction to the tragedy and applying it to an authoritarian state. At that point, the USSR still employed censorship and few citizens actually heard that there had been an accident. As for the leaders, like I said, a lot of them already had quite a bit of blood on their hand. Why would they care? The reformers were already reformers.

Yeah...whatever. I was around in '86 for the radiation cloud that floated around the planet a few times. Everyone blamed the Soviets. No more hiding behind the Great Proletariat Revolution. That included the poor average bastard in Minsk waiting for his potato and vodka ration.

[Jack Weber]

So, if it wasn't Gorbachev's policies that caused the collapse? What was it?

Two things....

1.An economy completely guided and controlled by the state was a total failure and the Soviet Union was essentially bankrupted.

Coupled with...

2.A generational awakening that yearned to be something other than a small cog in the wheels of the state run machinery.That dehumanizing factor is what gave the Pope the mral authority to rightly accuse the Soviets of being what they were...It's the major point that Marxism always misses...People are individuals!!!

Edited August 24, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Shady]

Two things....

1.An economy completely guided and controlled by the state was a total failure and the Soviet Union was essentially bankrupted.

Coupled with...

2.A generational awakening that yearned to be something other than a small cog in the wheels of the state run machinery.That dehumanizing factor is what gave the Pope the mral authority to rightly accuse the Soviets of being what they were...It's the major point that Marxism always misses...People are individuals!!!

Jack is on fire in this thread. Well said! And exactly right.

[nicky10013]

Two things....

1.An economy completely guided and controlled by the state was a total failure and the Soviet Union was essentially bankrupted.

Coupled with...

2.A generational awakening that yearned to be something other than a small cog in the wheels of the state run machinery.That dehumanizing factor is what gave the Pope the mral authority to rightly accuse the Soviets of being what they were...It's the major point that Marxism always misses...People are individuals!!!

When saying the USSR was bankrupted doesn't take into account the notion that other Stalinist states still exist today and have been bankrupt since the collapse of the Soviet Union. North Korea's government, despite having no economy to speak of, and having had 2 million people die of starvation in the early 90s, is still as firmly entrenched as it was before 91 when it recieved Soviet aid. The thought that the USSR couldn't have survived it's economic stagnation is patently false.

Secondly, the generational awakening wouldn't have occured if there hadn't been the relaxation of censorship. There were pockets of dissent here and there, most of which was dealt with by the KGB. There was "samizdat" floating around, illegal literature banned by the state, however, the volume of which wasn't significant. The real questioning of moral authority on a national scale didn't occur until after the Glastnost.

[nicky10013]

Yeah...whatever. I was around in '86 for the radiation cloud that floated around the planet a few times. Everyone blamed the Soviets. No more hiding behind the Great Proletariat Revolution. That included the poor average bastard in Minsk waiting for his potato and vodka ration.

I didn't say that YOU didn't know, I said that most people in the USSR didn't know, and there is the monumental difference.

[DogOnPorch]

I didn't say that YOU didn't know, I said that most people in the USSR didn't know, and there is the monumental difference.

At first they were certainly fed a lie...as were we all. But too many people were involved and entire cities evacuated. Word got around.

[M.Dancer]

North Korea's government, despite having no economy to speak of, and having had 2 million people die of starvation in the early 90s, is still as firmly entrenched as it was before 91 when it recieved Soviet aid. The thought that the USSR couldn't have survived it's economic stagnation is patently false.

Comparing NK with a population of around 28 homogenous citizens to thye USSR with over 280 million hetrogenous nationalities is a classic apples and eggs comparison...it's just cracked...

The disintegration of the soviets started with the satelittes and worked its way in...they would not have survived another ukrainian famine coupled with the rising nationalism in the baltics and the caucases, the ukraine and belorusse.

[nicky10013]

Comparing NK with a population of around 28 homogenous citizens to thye USSR with over 280 million hetrogenous nationalities is a classic apples and eggs comparison...it's just cracked...

The disintegration of the soviets started with the satelittes and worked its way in...they would not have survived another ukrainian famine coupled with the rising nationalism in the baltics and the caucases, the ukraine and belorusse.

Rising nationalism in the Baltics, the Caucuses, the Ukraine and Belarus was a result of Glastnost and Perestroika.

Furthermore, it's not an apples and eggs comparison to the USSR and NK. Cuba is yet another example. Authoritarian states revel in being isolated from the international community. The poorer and uniformed the citizens despite their nationality, the easier it is to make said people believe the founding yet illegitimate myths countries like the Soviet Union are based on. North Korea doesn't have a communist government because it's homogeneous. It has a communist government because 99% of people in North Korea don't even know man has landed on the moon and are so poor they can only depend upon the government.

[nicky10013]

At first they were certainly fed a lie...as were we all. But too many people were involved and entire cities evacuated. Word got around.

Yeah, because a year later, if not less, Glasnost was introduced where not only did details about Chernobyl emerge, but the far more important details about the true nature of the repressions under Stalin.