Census - Mandatory or Voluntary

[Argus]

Considering you deleted a whole bunch of my statement at the beginning proves

That I asked for specifics and you didn't give me any?

[Argus]

Survey and polls carry their own statistical bias... no matter the side of the sample, some groups of people will be over or under representated. To minimize this, statisticians wieght the sample and the data, adjusting the sample on the basis of other statistical information available. As Professor Gordon put it, "Other voluntary surveys get their weights from the census".

I find that answer highly dubious. What census data do poll makers make use of in deciding which politician is ahead and by how much in their polls? What census data is used in these on-line surveys? I'm guessing - none.

[Argus]

Census data in Canada is used for a variety of things, many of them (such as the formation of public policy, and city planning) are very useful.

Nice in theory. Not really true in reality. In theory, city planners examine the census and can plan ahead to ensure they have roads in the right place, the right levels of schools in the right locations, sewage lines and such laid out in new sub-divisions to be populated by an anticipated population. Etc. etc.

In reality, none of that happens. Nothing new is done, despite census data, until sufficient public pressure is built up due to vastly overcrowded schools and highways, and overused sewers. Only then do politicians feel they have the justification to spend the money. So the census information is of no practical value there.

So perhaps you can tell me how less accurate data, assuming voluntary will be less accurate, can really hurt anything?

[Argus]

No, it isn't only civil servants. You're showing ignorance...unless you consider things like the TD Bank and the CMA to be public service organizations....and that's only two of the literally hundreds of organizations.

If the TD bank wants information on where to locate their branches that's THEIR problem. I see no reason whatsoever to make participation in a census mandatory in order to please corporations.

[Argus]

You really don't understand the implications for economic and social information for the country, do you? The census is how both governments and private organizations measure long term trends and changes in the economy, the population, and the country. This is important stuff...

Why? Government doesn't do anything long-term anyway. It's only concerned with the next election.

[nicky10013]

That I asked for specifics and you didn't give me any?

Doing it more only makes you look like an even bigger idiot.

[nicky10013]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/840595--clement-accused-of-manufacturing-census-crisis?bn=1

[Alta4ever]

Doing it more only makes you look like an even bigger idiot.

Really your the one that hasn't been able to come up with the answer. You just parrot the nonsense with no specifics.

[Alta4ever]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/840595--clement-accused-of-manufacturing-census-crisis?bn=1

You really need to broaden you horizons and read something more then that garbage rag the TO red star.

[nicky10013]

Really your the one that hasn't been able to come up with the answer. You just parrot the nonsense with no specifics.

I feel I was pretty specific. If what I said wasn't specific enough, then obviously nothing will be specific enough for you, because, like I've said before, even if it means running into a pit of burning lava, you'd follow this government wherever it went.

[Smallc]

And that is why so many of us find you hard to take seriously. You don't question what the Mighty and Powerful Oz asks. Government to your young mind is this well-meaning, benign entity that is out to save it's people. Trust in them and you will prosper.

Right...that's why I'm questioning the decision of this government...and you aren't. I'm trusting in the experts in this case, not the government. You're trusting in the government. After all, trust in them and you will prosper, right?

I swear, some of you people really need to take off the tinfoil and look around. The government isn't coming for you, census or no. without the census though, you may not get public policy that is nearly as useful to you from any level of government, and the voluntary surveys that you keep talking about will be far less useful without the concrete base data that the census provides.

[nicky10013]

Right...that's why I'm questioning the decision of this government...and you aren't. I'm trusting in the experts in this case, not the government. You're trusting in the government. After all, trust in them and you will prosper, right?

I swear, some of you people really need to take off the tinfoil and look around. The government isn't coming for you, census or no. without the census though, you may not get public policy that is nearly as useful to you from any level of government, and the voluntary surveys that you keep talking about will be far less useful without the concrete base data that the census provides.

But see, that's exactly the point. The Conservatives want to cripple programs that offend them. The easiest way to start is to destroy hwo they're delivered and the data from the census is the way to do it. It's sneaky in that it happens over time and they'll most likely be out of power when the decision has to be made so firstly, they don't look heartless, and they have something to campaign on the next time around.

[jbg]

Leave it as it is....oh, and quit whining about the scary government knowing how many rooms are in your house.

Why is that information needed as part of a census. The compulsory parts of a census should be limited to the information needed to establish riding boundaries, allocate government aid, and not much more, in my humble opinion. In my country, the long form was shortened to a short form years back with no known ill effects.

[wyly]

But see, that's exactly the point. The Conservatives want to cripple programs that offend them. The easiest way to start is to destroy hwo they're delivered and the data from the census is the way to do it. It's sneaky in that it happens over time and they'll most likely be out of power when the decision has to be made so firstly, they don't look heartless, and they have something to campaign on the next time around.

if you want avoid looking bad the best way is to eliminate the stats that verify the incompetence...a voluntary census is a pefect tool for political manipulation of the facts...

[Argus]

Doing it more only makes you look like an even bigger idiot.

Well, some of us consider it idiotic to support something without any idea of why. But then there's you.

So we'll take it as a given that you don't have a clue as to what adverse affects there might be to going to a voluntary census other than perhaps the information might not be quite as accurate. Nor do you understand that the collection of information is not, in itself, the goal here. By itself it is of no importance. It is how that information is used which matters, and you can't even imagine a situation where less precise information might matter. Still, despite that, you're frightfully upset over it because, well, the talking heads told you you ought to be.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Argus

[eyeball]

Recent decisions about the mandatory long-form census are not as much of an unforeseen development as many seem to suggest. They are part of a general trend in government away from the kind of data gathering that can be critical to good policy-making.

...

According to annual reports by Public Works and Government Services Canada, the total number of opinion research projects managed by Health Canada was 105 in 2003-04 and only 22 by 2008-09. For Human Resources Development Canada, it dropped from 63 to eight in the same period; for Environment Canada, 27 to one. In the policy world, this is a colossal change.

My link

Hey, if the government is bound and determined to govern from a position of ignorance who am I to argue? I can't wait for the day it finally collapses under the weight of it's own crap. Making our governance even more uninformed and stupid than it already is should bring that day all that much closer.

[Argus]

Right...that's why I'm questioning the decision of this government...and you aren't. I'm trusting in the experts in this case, not the government. You're trusting in the government. After all, trust in them and you will prosper, right?

I swear, some of you people really need to take off the tinfoil and look around. The government isn't coming for you, census or no. without the census though, you may not get public policy that is nearly as useful to you from any level of government, and the voluntary surveys that you keep talking about will be far less useful without the concrete base data that the census provides.

You see, I don't actually object to the census and never have. I'm just interested in why the fuss. So the data might be somewhat less accurate - how much less accurate we don't seem to know. Okay, but what are the consequences of that? No one seems to know. People are all upset because in some cases, the census might not be quite as accurate. We might be slightly off in knowing how many toilets are in some homes in Calgary, for example? I just don't get the consequences and neither do any of you. I don't give a damn if the census if voluntary or not. So why do you?

[Argus]

But see, that's exactly the point. The Conservatives want to cripple programs that offend them.

Talking about tinfoil caps....

[Argus]

if you want avoid looking bad the best way is to eliminate the stats that verify the incompetence...a voluntary census is a pefect tool for political manipulation of the facts...

Doodoodoodooo Doodoodoodoo! It's a conspiracy! It's a hidden agenda! Stephan Harper hates the poor!

[Argus]

My link

Hey, if the government is bound and determined to govern from a position of ignorance who am I to argue? I can't wait for the day it finally collapses under the weight of it's own crap. Making our governance even more uninformed and stupid than it already is should bring that day all that much closer.

My question would be, if all these polls and surveys are "critical to good policy making" how come we've had such a dearth of good policy making over the last 25 years? Maybe they weren't so critical at all. Maybe they were just make work schemes for nerds and served, in the end, very little useful purpose.

[Smallc]

Why is that information needed as part of a census. The compulsory parts of a census should be limited to the information needed to establish riding boundaries, allocate government aid, and not much more, in my humble opinion. In my country, the long form was shortened to a short form years back with no known ill effects.

Funny you should ask why that information is needed. The number of rooms in a house is very indicative of spending patterns and wealth. When you have a collection of homes in one area with fewer rooms and a smaller square footage, you know where certain social programs can be directed. As for the US....the social policy focus is quite a bit smaller in your country than it is here.

[Smallc]

I don't give a damn if the census if voluntary or not. So why do you?

Because so many experts do. When city planners say that this will make it difficult for them to direct programs, and that it will in fact increase their cost (because they're going to have to get the information themselves), then I know it's a problem. When banks and economists say it's a bad idea because it will make accurate economic and trend analysis near impossible, I know it's a problem. You want to ignore that, I know, but that doesn't make it go away.

[Argus]

Because so many experts do. When city planners say that this will make it difficult for them to direct programs, and that it will in fact increase their cost (because they're going to have to get the information themselves), then I know it's a problem. When banks and economists say it's a bad idea because it will make accurate economic and trend analysis near impossible, I know it's a problem. You want to ignore that, I know, but that doesn't make it go away.

And when no one can give me a single situation where less accurate data (how much less?) can cause any trouble then I'm not gonna get worked up about it.

[Topaz]

I think the government and the other Canadians had their eyes opened to all the support the census has and for good reasons. I watched the committee meeting on this and I gotta say, Clement and the Tories were campaigning again! During the Q&A period , the Tories were try to point out about going to jail or fines and saying this was brought in by the Libs and that is what they want to punish Canadians. As it as been pointed out, no Canadians has either has done time and besides, there was a Conservative government that also didn't do nothing to change the penalty, so are these Conservatives going to change the penalty? Doesn't look like it and so what does that say about THEM! The Tories should tell all Canadians, you have to fill out the LONG form just once in your life time, perhaps once you're in your 40's, where most have homes, children, hopefully savings, just a normal family. OR you chose your time. There are ways around this but the Tories are making more out of this probably to take the attention of the G20 spending, the spending on the military and their out-of-control spending habits.

[nicky10013]

And when no one can give me a single situation where less accurate data (how much less?) can cause any trouble then I'm not gonna get worked up about it.

Voluntary census forms far and away over represent white middle class suburbanites. It under represents poor ethnic minorities. Considering that most social programmes not called medicare are directed at poor immigrant communities, the need for census accuracy speaks for itself.

You were mocking me and a few others because we supported something, "without knowing why." It seems to me that this explanation, as well as my original, combined with a couple responses from SmallC indicates we full well know why. Indeed, the only person who is asking fundamental questions of statistics and the census itself from a point of ignorance is you and yet you still take a position.

Edited July 29, 2010 by nicky10013