Canada's health care system sucks

[punked]

I believe that you have been led to embrace this myth for political purposes as described below:

The Right to Health Care ** Public Perception or Legal Right? To begin,

it is important to distinguish between a legal right to health care and the public perception of the existence of that right

. In Volume Four, the Committee noted the existence of public opinion polls that reveal that Canadians, encouraged by politicians and the media, believe they have a constitutional right to receive health care

even though no such right is explicitly contained in the Charter. Nor does any other Canadian law specifically confer that right

, although government programs exist to provide publicly funded health services.

http://www.righttohealthcare.org/Intl/Can.htm

Again you cite a paper written BEFORE THE RULING HEALTH CARE IS A RIGHT. Sorry you are wrong our Constitution is a living document somethings are ruled on which changes it. This is one of them. There was a question until 2005 when it was ruled under section of the charter health care is included. It is a right sorry you are DEAD WRONG.

[Michael Hardner]

And... this drift into legality is an example of why people don't get better health care... the facts and stats on service levels and costs are so BOORRRRING....

[bush_cheney2004]

Again you cite a paper written BEFORE THE RULING HEALTH CARE IS A RIGHT. Sorry you are wrong our Constitution is a living document somethings are ruled on which changes it. This is one of them. There was a question until 2005 when it was ruled under section of the charter health care is included. It is a right sorry you are DEAD WRONG.

I am sorry for being so insensitive to your cultural and political myths....I will be very careful not to mention anything about the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus.

[bjre]

The reason is easy, the laws protect the health system to take huge sum of money without provide good service.

The answer is easy, allow doctors from other countries to work as a doctor.

Rate them as 2nd level, that means no goverment approved and place a warning mark in their office.

If anyone make any mistake, sent him to jail.

The competition will change all the current system and make it efficient in very short time.

Edited July 21, 2010 by bjre

[Michael Hardner]

The reason is easy, the laws protect the health system to take huge sum of money without provide good service.

The answer is easy, allow doctors from other countries to work as a doctor.

Rate them as 2nd level, that means no goverment approved and place a warning mark in their office.

If anyone make any mistake, sent him to jail.

The competition will change all the current system and make it efficient in very short time.

There's something in bjre's idea which is pretty good. It should be possible to provide a list of international medical schools whose graduates are considered sufficiently trained to work in Canada.

[August1991]

Well the ruling was under the "life" portion of the Charter. So I guess you are entitled to as much as to pertains to you living. Not sure what that would mean and we would need more court cases to hammer out those details but Health care in Canada is covered by your right to life under section 7 of the Charter as I understand it.

Punked, you're just wrong - and I don't know how else to put it. Here's a quote from the Supreme Court decision in the Chaoulli case as written by a judge on the majority side:

The infringement of the rights protected by s. 1 is not justified under s. 9.1 of the Quebec Charter. The general objective of the HOIA and the HEIA is to promote health care of the highest possible quality for all Quebeckers regardless of their ability to pay. The purpose of the prohibition on private insurance in s. 11 HOIA and s. 15 HEIA is to preserve the integrity of the public health care system. Preservation of the public plan is a pressing and substantial objective, but there is no proportionality between the measure adopted to attain the objective and the objective itself. While an absolute prohibition on private insurance does have a rational connection with the objective of preserving the public plan, the Attorney General of Quebec has not demonstrated that this measure meets the minimal impairment test. It cannot be concluded from the evidence concerning the Quebec plan or the plans of the other provinces of Canada, or from the evolution of the systems of various OECD countries that an absolute prohibition on private insurance is necessary to protect the integrity of the public plan. There are a wide range of measures that are less drastic and also less intrusive in relation to the protected rights.

I posted this in another thread specifically about the Chaoulli case where the context is better explained.

----

But to return to the OP and this critical issue of "how much health care", a close friend recently went through the horrific experience of having a committee at a local hospital decide that there was nothing they could do for her seriously ill infant child. Understandably, my friend and her husband refused to accept this and began to contact any specialist in Canada willing to listen. They finally managed to get in touch with someone in a large city hospital who was willing to look at various scans and diagnostics. The end result is that my friend paid to have the child transported to the urban hospital where the procedure appears to have been successful.

When my friend explained this story to me, her eyes darkened when she said that you need strong nerves and a strong advocate when dealing nowadays with Canada's medical bureaucracy. The best is to have a contact (a family member or close friend) within the system. (Incidentally, this is how most people survived in Soviet Russia - through contacts.)

-----

Punked, I suspect that you have had no or only a passing experience with Canada's health system. You are simply naive if you think that it works well.

My fear is that the current problems are only the tip of the iceberg of what is to come when aging boomers without children begin to fall ill and expect teh State to care for them.

Edited July 21, 2010 by August1991

[Sir Bandelot]

Here's why it is my right- I pay my tax money into it, I better get my stuff out of it. Simple as that. Otherwise, you can watch the night fires burning, at a government office near you.

[bjre]

There's something in bjre's idea which is pretty good. It should be possible to provide a list of international medical schools whose graduates are considered sufficiently trained to work in Canada.

Too rare that you can find something from my post that you can partly agree. nice.

However, my main idea is that only competition can improve service. We need large number of independent services.

Monopoly is the reason of the bad service, no matter how many new people enter their system, the bureaucratic and the bosses behind the scene will exhaust any number of money no matter how huge it is, and they will still ask for more.

Why GE don't like China, because China has thousands of companies that produce electrical light that is beyond of GE's ability to buy. That is the reason we can have cheap product.

When there are many independent service providers compete freely, and the people take back their freedom choose their own doctors they trust, and the right of make judgement with their own belief, and the right of think with their own brain, instead of being done all by the corporate controlled government, we will be able to have the fare rate services.

Edited July 22, 2010 by bjre

[Bonam]

and the right of think with their own brain

Heh. We should put that one in the charter.

[dre]

Me to actually. I have never waited excessively for treatment or surgery.

Same goes for me. I have absolutely no complaints, and Iv had two surgeries on my lower back in the last 15 years, and a complicated twin pregnancy that resulted in my wife having to spend more than a month in the hospital. And thats just the major stuff.

Still though...

Id like to see Canada in the top 20... right now we are at about 30. The vast majority of the countries at the top of the rankings have public UHC, so privatization would be an idiotic course of action. But obviously theres some problems with our system. The biggest I think is that the Federal government has been offloading healtcare costs onto the provinces steadily for about 20 years. Weve gone from roughly 50% federal funding to 14%.

Its hard to be proud of this ranking... Especially when lots of those countries modeled their system after ours (before we defunded it)

1 France

2 Italy

3 San Marino

4 Andorra

5 Malta

6 Singapore

7 Spain

8 Oman

9 Austria

10 Japan

11 Norway

12 Portugal

13 Monaco

14 Greece

15 Iceland

16 Luxembourg

17 Netherlands

18 United Kingdom

19 Ireland

20 Switzerland

21 Belgium

22 Colombia

23 Sweden

24 Cyprus

25 Germany

26 Saudi Arabia

27 United Arab Emirates

28 Israel

29 Morocco

30 Canada

On the other hand... the news isnt all bad...

We are ranked 4th in preventable deaths.

http://www.allcountries.org/ranks/preventable_deaths_country_ranks_1997-1998_2002-2003_2008.html

12th in life expectancy...

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthy_life_table2.html

[dre]

Too rare that you can find something from my post that you can partly agree. nice.

However, my main idea is that only competition can improve service. We need large number of independent services.

Monopoly is the reason of the bad service, no matter how many new people enter their system, the bureaucratic and the bosses behind the scene will exhaust any number of money no matter how huge it is, and they will still ask for more.

Why GE don't like China, because China has thousands of companies that produce electrical light that is beyond of GE's ability to buy. That is the reason we can have cheap product.

When there are many independent service providers compete freely, and the people take back their freedom choose their own doctors they trust, and the right of make judgement with their own belief, and the right of think with their own brain, instead of being done all by the corporate controlled government, we will be able to have the fare rate services.

Monopoly is the reason of the bad service, no matter how many new people enter their system, the bureaucratic and the bosses behind the scene will exhaust any number of money no matter how huge it is, and they will still ask for more.

No sorry... almost country with high healthcare rankings has public UHC, or government price controls.

1 France

France has a system of universal health care largely financed by government through a system of national health insurance.

2 Italy

Italy has a public health care service for all the residents called "Servizio Sanitario Nazionale" or SSN (National Health Service) which is similar to the UK National Health Service. It is publicly run and funded mostly from taxation: some services requires small co-pays, while other services (like the emergency medicine and the general doctor)are completely free of charge. Like the UK, there is a small parallel private health care system.

3 San Marino

Public UHC.

4 Andorra

Public UHC.

5 Malta

Public UHC.

6 Singapore

Singapore has a universal health care system where government ensures affordability, largely through compulsory savings and price controls, while the private sector provides most care.

7 Spain

Public UHC.

8 Oman

Public UHC.

9 Austria

Public UHC.

10 Japan

UHC - Public /Private hybrid with the government using force to control the private part.

[Sir Bandelot]

That's true when it comes to making light bulbs, but we're talking about health care.

How does China rank on the list?

But I do not believe the socialized system is superior to private, just that this particular problem will still exist, in either system. Just look at car insurance as an example. The privatized companies simply band together and make agreements behind closed doors, to protect their own interests. And no neutral third party (government) has anything to say about that.

We are corrupt. Because the corruption is not particularly in this or that system. The corruption is in us.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[Bonam]

The corruption is in us.

Care to elaborate?

[Sir Bandelot]

Care to elaborate?

Wherever there is big money on this kind of scale, there will be corruption. That's guaranteed. It doesn't matter how it's funded. The only way to make such systems work is by constant vigilance and reforms. Corporate boards, management, unions, all should be replaced every 20 years.

[Bonam]

Wherever there is big money on this kind of scale, there will be corruption. That's guaranteed. It doesn't matter how it's funded. The only way to make such systems work is by constant vigilance and reforms. Corporate boards, management, unions, all should be replaced every 20 years.

I'm not convinced. I think the vast majority of money wasted in health care has to do more with inefficiency, incompetence, laziness, and most especially with having to following bureaucratic procedures rather than doing things quickly and cost-effectively, rather than with corruption.

Having worked for the government, I know how these things go. Say I need to buy a $50,000 piece of equipment? Ok, sure. Now, let's have an employee spend a week researching the alternatives to that piece of equipment, let's have another employee put out tenders and requests for bids, let's have someone else figure out and track the delivery process, someone else keep the records of all of it, someone else in charge of the building where it will be delivered and stored until needed, someone whose entire job it is to phone people at the office when their items arrive, etc.

By the time that $50,000 piece of equipment gets to where it's needed, probably several times its cost in employee time has been spent. Meanwhile I coulda just clicked a few buttons on their website, entered my department's account number, and it coulda been done in 5 minutes.

That's just one example. Point is, this is where most of the money is lost, on useless work done by useless people in order to comply with useless procedures and regulations, which other useless people came up with in the past in order to seem like they are doing something as part of their useless job.

Corruption? Sure it happens, but even the biggest corruption scandals in Canada's history pale in comparison to the money that is wasted on a continual basis in the manner I described above.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Bonam

[Moonlight Graham]

I heard that something needs to be done with our health care system, like introduce a fee to see a doctor. People are running to the Dr. when they have a runny nose, which is outrageous, if they were charged a fee maybe they'd think twice about it. Else by 2025 or some such $0.70 from every tax dollar collected will be going to health care if we continue on the road we're on now.

Exempt from such a fee would be the our most vulnerable of coarse.

I agree. At least charge 5 bucks or something, unless you have a prolongued condition.

[Moonlight Graham]

Yeah AND IF the Feds kicked in the 50% they were suppose to instead of 16% we wouldn't have this problem. I blame the Liberals and Conservatives who downloaded the debt over the years. End of story.

I blame a lot of it on the brain-drain. Chretien's Liberals let so many good doctors (and nurses) leave for the USA & didn't seem to give a rip or do much about it. We subsidize all these doctor's education, then they skip south for more money & we're up the creek with crazy wait times and lack of access to a GP.

How about we offer to pay for the entire education of any medical doctor provided they finish school and stay in the country. If they leave to work in another country they have to pay it back.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[wyly]

There's something in bjre's idea which is pretty good. It should be possible to provide a list of international medical schools whose graduates are considered sufficiently trained to work in Canada.

it's more complex than that...you can't simple take someone from a another country and let them practice even if they're qualified people will die...there is a language issue, if communications between MD and patient are poor there will be mistakes...who will take financial responsibility for malpractice settlements?

everyone coming up with personal anecdotes of their experiences with ER wait times are all missing the mark there many problems with healthcare and they all contribute to shortages and wait times...female to male ratio of MDs, cost of medical education, changing demographics of the country, newer expensive treatments, low wages for family MD's, political interferance...a number of issues contribute to the problems none easy to fix, some are impossible to fix...

[dre]

There's something in bjre's idea which is pretty good. It should be possible to provide a list of international medical schools whose graduates are considered sufficiently trained to work in Canada.

The problem is theres massive protectionism in the medical industry. Never mind international medical schools even foreign doctors that were trained in Canadian and American medical schools have a hard time immigrating here to set up a practice.

Canadian and American doctors are smart. They know that if meaningfull steps were taken to open up the medical industry to foreign competition they would end up with the same fate as North American textiles workers or steel workers. So they form "associations" that lobby the government for restrictive licensing requirements, etc.

[August1991]

No sorry... almost country with high healthcare rankings has public UHC, or government price controls.

1 France

France has a system of universal health care largely financed by government through a system of national health insurance.

2 Italy

Italy has a public health care service for all the residents called "Servizio Sanitario Nazionale" or SSN (National Health Service) which is similar to the UK National Health Service. It is publicly run and funded mostly from taxation: some services requires small co-pays, while other services (like the emergency medicine and the general doctor)are completely free of charge. Like the UK, there is a small parallel private health care system.

3 San Marino

Public UHC.

Giggle...

And the sad thing is that dre seems to truly believe that France, Italy and, yes, San Marino have a "public health system".

I like the phrases used "small co-pays" and "small parallel private health care system".

Anyway, I think that it's a dumb idea to rank "medical systems".

The problem is theres massive protectionism in the medical industry. Never mind international medical schools even foreign doctors that were trained in Canadian and American medical schools have a hard time immigrating here to set up a practice.

Canadian and American doctors are smart. They know that if meaningfull steps were taken to open up the medical industry to foreign competition they would end up with the same fate as North American textiles workers or steel workers. So they form "associations" that lobby the government for restrictive licensing requirements, etc.

While I don't disagre with you here, the problems in Canada's health system go far, far beyond this.

But to add to you point, we don't even have full recognition of credentials within Canada. Moreover, our provincial health insurance is not fully transferrable between provinces.

Edited July 22, 2010 by August1991

[bjre]

http://www.healthzone.ca/health/newsfeatures/healthcaresystem/article/842650--why-er-wait-times-are-what-they-are?bn=1

You go to a hospital’s emergency room and you sit and wait anywhere from three to 15 hours. And you wonder, what exactly is happening behind all those closed doors in the ER?

....

This week, the province announced it will invest $100 million to improve wait-time performances at hospitals by 15 per cent over the next year. Health Minister Deb Matthews lauded a 10-hour wait at St Michael's Hospital in Toronto as a success, down from 16.7 hours for those who need complex medical help. Opposition critics have said it isn't good enough.

How lucky was me, I had been waiting for less than 10 hours in emergency room for my kid several years ago. Now it becomes a costly goal. and they ask for my tax dollars. They will ask for more continuously by just let the service become worse and worse. What a extortion.

If you hire any worker do something for you and they do like this, you can easily fire him and ask for others to do it for you. Why you don't fire the health system and let others to do it?

[Argus]

There's something in bjre's idea which is pretty good. It should be possible to provide a list of international medical schools whose graduates are considered sufficiently trained to work in Canada.

I would agree provided the institutions which certify them can easily verify the identity of the people involved, and provided they come from nations where corruption and bribery aren't the standard operating fare. I don't want some "doctor" to be able to pay a registrar at the university of Bombay $250 for a complete set of documents and to act as a referral if anyone calls.

[RB]

Michael Hardner, on 21 July 2010 - 01:11 PM, said:

There's something in bjre's idea which is pretty good. It should be possible to provide a list of international medical schools whose graduates are considered sufficiently trained to work in Canada.

I don't want some "doctor" to be able to pay a registrar at the university of Bombay $250 for a complete set of documents and to act as a referral if anyone calls.

I can only say I have never experience these long wait times.

In the employment section I can admit to meeting up the characters, one lady and her sister showed up with foreign masters degree with all honours in chemistry and a major pharmaceutical company wanted to give them a break. Within a few hours they were warned about bogus representation, fired and sent back to my office. One of the girls could not identify a Bunsen burner from the start ...One fellow appeared from Pakistan with only a 3 year university program and operating as a doctor from Pakistan and wanted to know why it is so difficult to become a doctor here...I just don't want to be next to these folks when they are in a action.

Edited August 1, 2010 by RB

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The truth is that before we can reform the system in any way , we simply have to address the entire wait time issue.

[Michael Hardner]

to add to Jerry's note - we need an independent auditor to publish continuous statistics on performance, and need to add those reports to our public forum on services. Newspapers stories when things get bad - that doesn't cut it anymore for a multi billion dollar entity.