Argus Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 Where do you get this? Any citations? Surely you must have some reputable sources. It's pretty common knowledge. I believe I looked into Indonesia and such a year or two back. As this is at best a side issue I'm not prepared to devote the time to look into it again. Why do YOU think the US gave him the okay to invade East Timor? Cause they were panting after the sight of blood? Why too late to go back? The slaughters stopped thanks to international intervention...non-violent intervention at that. There is a time to everything. A time when international attention and other factors, economic, political, military, cause a dictator to throw in the towel and, however grudgingly, give way. We've seen it in countries around the world. There is invariably a combination of factors involved. Simply denying him weapons back in the seventies would not have done it. He already HAD weapons and could certainly get more. ??? Even if this were true, it sounds pretty frail as justification for support of massive State terrorism. "If we don't support mass murder...our enemies will!" Seems pretty sensible to me. You can either have a large, important nation with a vicious human rights abuse record supporting you in the cold war, or you can get on your high horse and let them turn to your enemies. If you do the latter, it won't help you, and it won't help the people who are being abused. The only people it will help are your enemies. I was extremely chary of all the dewy eyed do-gooders campaigning against Rhodesia, as an example. Given the nature of the opponents to the regime, I saw little likelihood that pressuring them to give over and surrender to democratic rule would end up as anything but a different kind of dictatorship, only this one hostile to our interests. But the activists got their way. They all cheered as the Zimbabwe flag ran up, and there was one (1) UN supervised democratic election. Then they all turned their heads away and moved on to their next cause du jour as Mugabe brought in North Korea(!) to train his security forces and proceeded to slaughter his opponents. At any rate, it's not accurate. Indonesia was already a client state, with a very close relationship with the West, particularly with the US and Australia. Egypt was a client state too, then it was a client state of the Soviets. Now it's a client state of the Americans. There are no ties that bind when it comes to such things. If the Americans stop supporting the regime and get all snippy about human rights violations I bet the Russians would be interested in getting back their old influence. Or maybe the regime would fall and there'd be another Iran to worry over. One thing that's damned unlikely to replace it - a human rights respecting democracy. I can't believe you insist on justifying such horrors. It's moral relativism to an astonishing degree. No, what you're doing is moral relativism. I think you need to look up the term. What I'm talking about is realpolitik. I'm a very practical person. I see no reason to disadvantage ourselves when that seems highly unlikely to result in any positive impact on the human rights of the individuals concerned in a given situation. You get exercised about the terrorist crimes of Hamas, which are trivial in comparison, but when we're involved...you just have to justify it. No, the issue is that I condemn terrorism while you try to twist other actions, or the actions of third parties into giving us the same level of moral culpability. You'd never find me supporting them if Israel or the US started planting explosives in markets to kill innocent women and children, but in other cases, well there are many shades of gray. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 It's pretty common knowledge. I believe I looked into Indonesia and such a year or two back. As this is at best a side issue I'm not prepared to devote the time to look into it again. Why do YOU think the US gave him the okay to invade East Timor? Cause they were panting after the sight of blood? There is a time to everything. A time when international attention and other factors, economic, political, military, cause a dictator to throw in the towel and, however grudgingly, give way. We've seen it in countries around the world. There is invariably a combination of factors involved. Simply denying him weapons back in the seventies would not have done it. He already HAD weapons and could certainly get more. Seems pretty sensible to me. You can either have a large, important nation with a vicious human rights abuse record supporting you in the cold war, or you can get on your high horse and let them turn to your enemies. If you do the latter, it won't help you, and it won't help the people who are being abused. The only people it will help are your enemies. I was extremely chary of all the dewy eyed do-gooders campaigning against Rhodesia, as an example. Given the nature of the opponents to the regime, I saw little likelihood that pressuring them to give over and surrender to democratic rule would end up as anything but a different kind of dictatorship, only this one hostile to our interests. But the activists got their way. They all cheered as the Zimbabwe flag ran up, and there was one (1) UN supervised democratic election. Then they all turned their heads away and moved on to their next cause du jour as Mugabe brought in North Korea(!) to train his security forces and proceeded to slaughter his opponents. Egypt was a client state too, then it was a client state of the Soviets. Now it's a client state of the Americans. There are no ties that bind when it comes to such things. If the Americans stop supporting the regime and get all snippy about human rights violations I bet the Russians would be interested in getting back their old influence. Or maybe the regime would fall and there'd be another Iran to worry over. One thing that's damned unlikely to replace it - a human rights respecting democracy. No, what you're doing is moral relativism. I think you need to look up the term. What I'm talking about is realpolitik. I'm a very practical person. I see no reason to disadvantage ourselves when that seems highly unlikely to result in any positive impact on the human rights of the individuals concerned in a given situation. No, the issue is that I condemn terrorism while you try to twist other actions, or the actions of third parties into giving us the same level of moral culpability. You'd never find me supporting them if Israel or the US started planting explosives in markets to kill innocent women and children, but in other cases, well there are many shades of gray. No, the issue is that I condemn terrorism while you try to twist other actions, or the actions of third parties into giving us the same level of moral culpability. You'd never find me supporting them if Israel or the US started planting explosives in markets to kill innocent women and children, but in other cases, well there are many shades of gray. I bet about 100 palestinian women and children are killed for every one Israeli. Trying to allocate "moral culpability" in this conflict is splitting hairs. Both sides are guilty of so many transgressions at this point that you could never even figure out whos to blame. You side with Israel because thats your "team". The rest is just intellectual gymnastics you do to try to sell that to yourself. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 Ever seen me once come on here justifying a violent act by Hamas? Even one time?[ Oddly, people never seem to start topics when Hamas or one of its minions does something disgusting or outrageously violent. And that includes all the dedicated critics of Israel. But on the rare occasion when someone DOES seem to start a thread critical of Hamas or Hezbollah, we can be fairly sure certainly people will be drawn to it to defend them, not by defending them, not by saying "Oh, Hamas are great people" but by attacking Israel. Every time someone does criticize some outrageous act of Hamas or Hezbollah, some people will immediately post about how horrible Israel is, as if to justify the action - though of course, they're not defending the action, oh no, not them. Nor do I seem to see any of the same anti-Israeli crowd, those people oh-so concerned with human rights violations, appearing whenever a topic about gross human rights violations shows up which concerns some other country. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 There is ZERO chance of Israel vacating the West Bank. They pump 30% of their fresh water from there, and no country on earth would just casually give up 1/3 of their water supply never mind a country in that region which is getting drier. The Israeli settlements there for he most part are to give them a basis to assert permanent control over the mountain aquifiers. Israel isnt building settlements in the west bank because of Palestinians attacks... they are building settlements to secure territory and resources. Which is why prior to the latest outbreak of violence when attacks on Israel were at an all-time low, SETTLEMENT BUILDING INCREASED. Tell me how Israel is going replace the more than 1/2 of their fresh water that they pump out of the occupied territories. Desalination? Good luck. Magic? Until the water is resolved its IMPOSSIBLE for Israel to withdraw from the west bank. And its going to get much much worse. You will probably see Israel at war with Lebanon and Jordon within a couple of decades over water... In fact Israel threatened to Invade Lebanon for pumping water out of the Litani river in 2003. Bump. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 I totally agree with you...it’s not the fault of poor soldiers. it the politics and the agenda that they are thought that turns those soldiers in to Zionist slaves. The use of that term does not put you in good odour. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 The Israelis could learn a ting or two about handling demonstrators from experts like Iran, Syria, egypt.... They could certainly learn a lot from South Korea, Japan, Peru and Argentina. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
M.Dancer Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 I bet about 100 palestinian women and children are killed for every one Israeli. You would lose your bet. The actual number is closer to 5 to 1. Interstingly, for every 200 palestinians killed by israelis....100 palestinians are killed by palestinians...of course it's a differnt culture so their election campaigning is differnt too... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Palestinian_National_Authority Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Argus Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 I bet about 100 palestinian women and children are killed for every one Israeli. Trying to allocate "moral culpability" in this conflict is splitting hairs. Both sides are guilty of so many transgressions at this point that you could never even figure out whos to blame. You side with Israel because thats your "team". The rest is just intellectual gymnastics you do to try to sell that to yourself. If Israel is my "team" the basis for my liking them has little to do with them scoring more goals. They are, after all, largely a democratic western state with ideals and values which are similar to ours. They are far from perfect, true, and their idiotic political system of proportional rep cedes far too much power to their religious wackos. But there is just nothing to like on the "other side". The various representatives of the Arab and Palestinian people are all non-democratic, brutal, and in many cases, religious wackos, as well. Lebanon now has a nascent democracy, as does Iraq, both thanks to the Americans, but the religious wack jobs are doing their best to bring them down. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
naomiglover Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 You would lose your bet. The actual number is closer to 5 to 1. Interstingly, for every 200 palestinians killed by israelis....100 palestinians are killed by palestinians...of course it's a differnt culture so their election campaigning is differnt too... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Palestinian_National_Authority The actual number for 2005. What about after this? What about before this? How many Israelis were killed by Israelis? Do you have the numbers? I bet more Israelis were killed by Israelis than Israelis were killed by Palestinian. Do you find that number to be 'interesting'? Quote Jewish Voice for Peace Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East
naomiglover Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 Sep 29, 2000 to Feb 5, 2009: Palestinian civilians killed : 4,596 Israeli civilians killed: 731 Close to half of the Israeli civilians killed are settlers on Palestinian territory, in which, many are armed thugs who engage in violent acts against Palestinians. How about the children? Palestinian children killed: 1,487 Israeli children killed: 123 http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html These are numbers from B'Tselem, which are considered conservative numbers compared to the Red Cross. Quote Jewish Voice for Peace Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East
M.Dancer Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 The actual number for 2005. What about after this? What about before this? How many Israelis were killed by Israelis? Do you have the numbers? I bet more Israelis were killed by Israelis than Israelis were killed by Palestinian. Do you find that number to be 'interesting'? 174 israelis were murdered in 2004. Most of the killers were arabs killing other arabs...followed by arabs killing Israelis...interesting Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
BCMan Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 I see you are still attempting to get away from answering my questions. BAD STUDENT. You answered the first question wrong... I give you another question but you are still a mess up...when will you grow up??? Answer this question now. “To make this fair for you, I would change the question. What is the importance of internal relations in the global political arena?” To be fair, I will give you some credit for attempting to answer my first question maybe that made you mad. You decided to stop babbling about blockades and now you wish to babble about domestic politics vis a vis foreign relations? Go ahead..babble on.....I'm sure someone who "know(s) lots of Jews" and apprently managed to poll them so quickly will have much to babble about... Quote I will manipulate your mind to dance for me while I clap. I love comedy. I didnt make you cry.
BCMan Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 Breaking: Israel rejects calls for independent probe It’s becoming clear that Israel doesn’t give a damn about International laws or for that matter human life. It seems that in their minds they can get away with anything and nobody can stop them. Those who were objecting why the ships didn’t allow the IDF to search them, what now? Why is there an objection for an independent probe. Quote I will manipulate your mind to dance for me while I clap. I love comedy. I didnt make you cry.
M.Dancer Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 I see you are still attempting to get away from answering my questions. BAD STUDENT. You answered the first question wrong... I give you another question but you are still a mess up...when will you grow up??? Answer this question now. “To make this fair for you, I would change the question. What is the importance of internal relations in the global political arena?” To be fair, I will give you some credit for attempting to answer my first question maybe that made you mad. Oh the 1st question was answered correctly...yoou just don't like the answer because it ain't the nonsense answer you wished it would be. Your second question is much like the answer you wished for the first....irrelevant nonsense. Now run along and grow up.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 Breaking: Israel rejects calls for independent probe It’s becoming clear that Israel doesn’t give a damn about International laws or for that matter human life. It seems that in their minds they can get away with anything and nobody can stop them. Those who were objecting why the ships didn’t allow the IDF to search them, what now? Why is there an objection for an independent probe. When it comes to Israel there is no such thing as an idependant probe. Like the goldstone inquiry they are oftem stacked with jew haters and propagandists... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Wild Bill Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 When it comes to Israel there is no such thing as an idependant probe. Like the goldstone inquiry they are oftem stacked with jew haters and propagandists... It does get rather samey, doesn't it Morris? Lemme see if I got the picture. Arab protest groups routinely fire rockets at random into Israeli residential areas. Suicide bombers blow up school kids and civilians every day. Some Arab countries cheerfully provide money, rockets and arms to these groups. Some of these countries have publicly vowed and even written it into their constitutions that they will try to "wipe Israel off the map of the Earth!", while racing hurriedly to develop the atomic weapons that will make it possible for them to do that. So Israel has an embargo, where they stop shipping to inspect the cargoes to make sure they are not carrying armaments. Some Arab protesters on one of the ships choose to attack the Israelis as they come on board, with methods that could maim or kill. The protesters vow to either drive the Israelis away or become martyrs. Well, they got their wish! They're martyrs! The soldiers fired back! Can't blame them. Why on earth should they have to stand there while the protesters tried to kill them? The martyrs have proved victorious! The whole world seems to be blaming the Israelis! The protesters have accomplished far more than any suicide bomber could ever have hoped to do! Well worth it, by their values. Me, I'm still wondering about some things. Although various countries that had ports of departure for the flotilla have all claimed that there was nothing that could harm Israel in the cargoes that means nothing. Smugglers don't follow the rules, after all. They would have loaded contraband AFTER the ships had left those ports! Has anyone heard of any inspections of the ships after they were seized by Israel? Have any countries been willing to send their own inspectors? Have CNN or even AL-Jazeera been allowed on board? I would have thought that the protesters, assuming their innocence, would have DEMANDED such inspections afterward, inviting any and all that were anywhere handy to look for themselves! Perhaps I just missed it. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
scribblet Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 This was planned propaganda and Jenin all over again. More violence and plans of violence against Israel. and Youtube footage of what happened http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=2339 A day before the confrontation with Israel a university lecturer revealed on Hamas TV that the Gaza flotilla's commander had announced that the participants were planning to use "resistance," the Palestinian euphemism for violence, against "the Zionists." He added that the participants sought to die as Martyrs, even more than they wanted to reach Gaza.The following are the words of Dr. Abd Al-Fatah Shayyeq Naaman, lecturer in Shari'ah law at a university in Yemen, now visiting Gaza: cont.. Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
eyeball Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 Me, I'm still wondering about some things. Although various countries that had ports of departure for the flotilla have all claimed that there was nothing that could harm Israel in the cargoes that means nothing. Smugglers don't follow the rules, after all. They would have loaded contraband AFTER the ships had left those ports! Is there any evidence this happened? I have a hard time imagining this flotilla wasn't tracked every inch of the way by aerial drones and or submarines. Has anyone heard of any inspections of the ships after they were seized by Israel? No, I've been wondering when we're going to see pictures of all this smuggled contraband that was apparently loaded after the ships left port. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
dre Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) When it comes to Israel there is no such thing as an idependant probe. Like the goldstone inquiry they are oftem stacked with jew haters and propagandists... Thats just tin foil hat conspiracy theory. The whole world is out to get poor little Israel. Big suprise! Sports fans think the ref is bias Edited June 2, 2010 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
naomiglover Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 When it comes to Israel there is no such thing as an idependant probe. Like the goldstone inquiry they are oftem stacked with jew haters and propagandists... You have no credibility. Criticize Israel and you are considered an anti-semite. In Goldston'e case, a self-hating Jew. Not to mention all of the humanitarian organizations who have concluded that Israel committed war crimes. Amnesty International Human Rights Watch B-Teslem Red Cross Numerous Israeli Rights Organizations All of these groups are motivated by Jew hatred. Right. Quote Jewish Voice for Peace Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East
naomiglover Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 Suicide bombers blow up school kids and civilians every day. That's quite the wild statement. Care to back up your claim that school kids are blown up by suicide bombers every day? How about just tell us the last time school kids were blown up by suicide bombers. Are you here to have a discussion or are you here to lie? Quote Jewish Voice for Peace Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 ....Not to mention all of the humanitarian organizations who have concluded that Israel committed war crimes. No matter...claims of "war crimes" are all the rage today...even NATO in Afghanistan commits "war crimes". So why are you singling out Israel, proving Dancer's point? 'Tis a pity..."war crimes" allegations just don't get the kind of political traction they used to. Blame YouTube! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
naomiglover Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 This was planned propaganda and Jenin all over again. More violence and plans of violence against Israel. and Youtube footage of what happened http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=2339 cont.. You are posting from a site called palwatch.org You are as extreme as those who find their material from sites such as jewwatch. Fact is that 9 peace activists were killed and many were injured. If Israel had nothing to hide, they would allow an independent investigation. Just like the recent Gaza massacre, Israel does not want to cooperate with an independent investigation, because the Israeli government knows that it's at fault. Quote Jewish Voice for Peace Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East
naomiglover Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 No matter...claims of "war crimes" are all the rage today...even NATO in Afghanistan commits "war crimes". So why are you singling out Israel, proving Dancer's point? 'Tis a pity..."war crimes" allegations just don't get the kind of political traction they used to. Blame YouTube! These humanitarian organizations investigate and report illegal activities by any organization. Even NATO. So neither you or Dancer have made any point. Quote Jewish Voice for Peace Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East
M.Dancer Posted June 2, 2010 Report Posted June 2, 2010 Just like the recent Gaza massacre, Israel does not want to cooperate with an independent investigation, because the Israeli government knows that it's at fault. More like the members of the investigation like the failed Goldstone exersize are often so biased the ivestigation is worthless... If you don't believe me, imagine someone like you on the team... DUBGLOVER: The EviL Zioinist entity atrtacked the defenceless peaceful activists with high power Paintballs... Israeli: We have video evidence of passengers attacking IDF pers... DUBGLOVER: You are babbling, Shut Up SHUT UP SHUT UP.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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