Mosque going up in NYC building

[Guest American Woman]

You can't say that all Muslims aren't guilty and then follow it up by saying that all Muslims are guilty and expect people to take your statements at face value.

Here's what I believe:

All Muslims are not responsible for 9-11.

All Muslims are not terrorists.

Muslims have the right to build on the property in question and I will defend that right; however, I question whether it's the right thing to do.

Considering the fact that Muslims damaged the property the mosque is being built on on 9-11, and but for those actions this property would not be available for the mosque, I feel it's insensitive to build on this property.

I therefore believe those in charge of the project should build elsewhere out of empathy to those who lost loved ones on 9-11 and out of understanding for the way the majority of Americans feel about it, and that includes Muslims who share the same views.

I believe empathy and understanding are a two way street.

I hold myself and all nations/religions/people to the same standards.

I agreed wholeheartedly with Bush when he said we should not blame all Muslims for 9-11; that we are not at war with Islam.

I think it's now time for Muslims to understand where non-Muslims are coming from regarding this issue.

Refute what I said and think, or I will keep reposting what I said and think in response to your ignorance/inability-to-comprehend-what-I-said/dishonesty. Keep misrepresenting what I actually believe, keep putting your ignorant views on me, and you will keep seeing what I really think/believe repeated over and over again.

[dre]

I believe empathy and understanding are a two way street.

Except when it comes to burning someones sacred holy books in a direct attempt to provoke them, and cause hurt.

Then suddenly empathy goes out the window.

[CANADIEN]

I've never done any of those things.

As I said before, and don't worry I will not need to repeat it again, I will not fail to see that what you call empathy is a call for the proponents of the Cordoba Project to act as if THEY were responsible for 9-11. You will notice, btw, that I have never said you had demonized Muslims, or that you had misrepresentated their intent. Try to stick to what I say.

I respect those people's views. Totally. But they do not represent the majority. Furthermore, I can quote, and have quoted, just as many Muslims who share my views. Again, considering the facts and the way the majority of Americans feel, including many American Muslims, I disagree with the choice to build the mosque on this property.

Good thing to know that anybody on this thread respect their views, considering that nobody to my knowledge has seen fit to even acknowledge their existence until now.

As for the fact they are not in the majority. It is irrelevant. Their feelings as people who have lost loved ones on 9-11 count as much as those of the people who have lost loved one on 9-11 and oppose the project.

But the stated purpose of this mosque is to build bridges, and it's doing just the opposite.

The only reason why it is not achieving the stated goal is because of those who refuse to let that goal be accomplished.

Edited August 30, 2010 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

Except when it comes to burning someones sacred holy books in a direct attempt to provoke them, and cause hurt.

Then suddenly empathy goes out the window.

To be fait. I do not think it was lack of empathy. I would personally describe it as a cop-out.

[CANADIEN]

Then you must realize that, empathy, being non literal, does not in any way preclude the building of this mosque.

Indeed, it does not preclude the building of that centre. Not one bit.

[dre]

To be fait. I do not think it was lack of empathy. I would personally describe it as a cop-out.

I would consider it selective empathy. And empath would put themselves in the shoes of muslims, and realize that burning their holy books would be extremely hurtfull and offensive, and council against it.

[CANADIEN]

I would consider it selective empathy. And empath would put themselves in the shoes of muslims, and realize that burning their holy books would be extremely hurtfull and offensive, and council against it.

Actually, an empath would listen to whatever is daid by any Muslim, no matter or bigoted it may be, and if they had anything in mind that they keep would help mend fene they would renounce it, but after all it's Christians who burned the book.

[Guest American Woman]

As I said before, and don't worry I will not need to repeat it again, I will not fail to see that what you call empathy is a call for the proponents of the Cordoba Project to act as if THEY were responsible for 9-11.

So be it. That's the way you see it, but it's wrong to accuse me of blaming all Muslims, to say I think they are all guilty, that they should all accept guilt, when it's not what I believe at all. It's wrong to say that it IS blaming all Muslims. What's correct is what you now said -- that it's you seeing it as blaming all Muslims; but what you believe, how you interpret it, what you see, is only indicative of what YOU think. It is in no way related to what *I* think. It is not 'the way it is.'

You will notice, btw, that I have never said you had demonized Muslims, or that you had misrepresentated their intent. Try to stick to what I say.

Did I ever say you said I had demonized Muslims? That you said I had misrepresented their intent?? The answer would be no.

Good thing to know that anybody on this thread respect their views, considering that nobody to my knowledge has seen fit to even acknowledge their existence until now.

Whether or not someone has acknowledged their existence in this thread prior to now has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not people respect their opinion. There's a lot of things that don't come up in these threads, and it doesn't mean people have no views/knowledge/feelings about it. You brought it up, I responded. That's how things work on these boards, so I have no idea what your problem is.

As for the fact they are not in the majority. It is irrelevant. Their feelings as people who have lost loved ones on 9-11 count as much as those of the people who have lost loved one on 9-11 and oppose the project.

I never said their feelings counted less. Of course their feelings are just as important, but sometimes people should go by the majority. If the minority of people felt the way I do, would you not be pointing out that the minority feel that way, so in a situation that's loaded with emotion, the feelings of the majority should ultimately be acted on? I'm sure you would, if the majority agreed with your views. So in light of that, I'll ask you why you don't think the feelings of those who oppose the project should count as much as those who support it. Why their feelings shouldn't be acted upon.

The only reason why it is not achieving the stated goal is because of those who refuse to let that goal be accomplished.

The reason it's not being achieved is because it was an unrealistic goal.

[waldo]

Considering the fact that Muslims damaged the property the mosque is being built on on 9-11, and but for those actions this property would not be available for the mosque, I feel it's insensitive to build on this property.

you keep stating this but can't/won't substantiate it... as I stated previously, Burlington Coat Factory (BCF) was in the midst of a major restructuring and was closing many stores/factory outlets throughout the U.S.. You don't know the business intent BCF had for that location and, ultimately, what caused them to sell it, although it's not difficult to appreciate the rationale to sell given the location is a depressed area. You can't say, with certainty, what conditions made this location available... I've read the roof sustained damage but certainly nothing that would have prevented BCF from continuing in that location after repairs.

[dre]

The reason it's not being achieved is because it was an unrealistic goal.

That remains to be seen. This facility will be open for many decades. Whether it achieves its goal or not will depend on how its used, and we wont know for a long time.

[waldo]

oh... the humanity!!!

Bigot starts ground zero church: Where's the outrage?

A pastor who hates Muslims, Mormons and gays will start preaching Sunday. Will mosque opponents speak out?

A bigoted pastor who has assailed gays and Muslims is launching the "9-11 Christian Center at Ground Zero" a mere two blocks from the World Trade Center site this Sunday, but so far the project hasn't drawn a peep of protest from those who are outraged by the "ground zero mosque."

To be perfectly clear, Keller should be permitted to build anything he wants as long as it's legal.

But the only logic by which Keller's project would not be horrifying to those who oppose Park51 is if they believe all Muslims, including the progressive Muslim Americans behind Park51, should be treated as suspicious or even in the same category as the Sept. 11 terrorists. If mosque opponents' concerns are truly about sensitivity to the neighborhood around ground zero -- and not about Muslims -- we'll hear them denounce Keller loudly in the coming days.

[CANADIEN]

Whether or not someone has acknowledged their existence in this thread prior to now has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not people respect their opinion.

I disagree. That their opinion has not been mentioned bofore says a lot about the importance given to it.

I never said their feelings counted less.

and I neversaid you said such a thing. That being said, this is a case where silence on all parts says a lot.

Of course their feelings are just as important, but sometimes people should go by the majority. If the minority of people felt the way I do, would you not be pointing out that the minority feel that way, so in a situation that's loaded with emotion, the feelings of the majority should ultimately be acted on? I'm sure you would, if the majority agreed with your views.

What is right or wrong is not a matter of majority or minority opinion, so no I would notcuse the fact my opinion is shared by the majority even if it was.

So in light of that, I'll ask you why you don't think the feelings of those who oppose the project should count as much as those who support it.

Now that I finished laughing at the gross misrepresentation of my opinion... There is no doubt that the families of their victims, and many in the society at large, see in the idea of a Muslim presence near Ground Zero as a painful reminder of what happened on 9-11. Nobody in his/her right mind would claim that these feeling should be discounted, or that the promoters of the Cordoba Project should discount them. The thing though, is that the promoters have done a lot to address these feelings and explain their intentions. Most importantly, empathy towards the families and relatives of the feelings does not include condoning words of hatred and intolerance or misrepresentation of the intent of the promoters, whether they come from relatives of the victimms or people bent on advancing an intolerant agenda.

The reason it's not being achieved is because it was an unrealistic goal.

The only thing that makes it unrealistic is intolerance.

Edited August 30, 2010 by CANADIEN

[Shady]

ABC News Exclusive: Two Men on United Flight from Chicago Arrested on 'Preparation of a Terrorist Attack' in Amsterdam

ABC News

Everybody gets one guess as to the religious background of the two men arrested.

[CANADIEN]

you keep stating this but can't/won't substantiate it... as I stated previously, Burlington Coat Factory (BCF) was in the midst of a major restructuring and was closing many stores/factory outlets throughout the U.S.. You don't know the business intent BCF had for that location and, ultimately, what caused them to sell it, although it's not difficult to appreciate the rationale to sell given the location is a depressed area. You can't say, with certainty, what conditions made this location available... I've read the roof sustained damage but certainly nothing that would have prevented BCF from continuing in that location after repairs.

The "this building would not have been available if not for the attack" is disingenious at best. It ignores the possibility that the site could have become available at anytime even if it has not been damaged. Besides, it ignores an important fact - there was a Muslim prayer space at the WTC, attended by some of the victims. Surely, empathy for the families of these victims would include a place where they can pray and mourn for those they lost.

[Smallc]

Everybody gets one guess as to the religious background of the two men arrested.

So do you think that all Muslims are terrorist? Should the Park 51 Muslims stop their plans because of these Muslims? What exactly is your point, here? Yes, most international terrorists are Muslim....but the vast majority of the population isn't terrorist, and really has nothing to do with terrorism.

[DogOnPorch]

The "this building would not have been available if not for the attack" is disingenious at best. It ignores the possibility that the site could have become available at anytime even if it has not been damaged. Besides, it ignores an important fact - there was a Muslim prayer space at the WTC, attended by some of the victims. Surely, empathy for the families of these victims would include a place where they can pray and mourn for those they lost.

That might hold water if Imam Rauf & flock were mosqueless. He currently has a mosque on Warren Street...two blocks up from Park Place.

[Shady]

So do you think that all Muslims are terrorist?

No I don't. But let's all stop pretending it's a very small percentage, and a very small threat.

[Guest American Woman]

I disagree. That their opinion has not been mentioned bofore says a lot about the importance given to it.

It may say a lot to you, and that's your prerogative to believe it, but that doesn't make it true. I noticed that you've had no comment on the quotes from Muslims I've posted, so I can only assume, by your standards/logic, that it means what they've had to say doesn't hold much importance to you. Right? Or do you hold different standards for yourself?

and have said you said such a thing. .

Instead of repeating your false accusation, prove it. If you make an accusation and don't back it up, it says a lot about your (lack of) integrity. So prove it or retract it.

What is right or wrong is not a matter of majority or minority opinion, so no I would notcuse the fact my opinion is shared by the majority even if it was.

I didn't say what's right or wrong is a matter of majority or minority opinion. What I said is that sometimes when an issued is loaded emotion, people should choose to act on the majority. It makes sense, when there are a lot of legitimate emotions involved, so respect that most people feel a certain way; especially when the goal is to "build bridges." One cannot expect to build bridges without respecting the feelings of the majority.

Now that I finished laughing at the gross misrepresentation of my opinion...

Now this is funny. I simply turned your words back at you, and suddenly it's a "gross misrepresentation of your opinion." Since you seemed to feel it represented/applied to my opinion so well, I could only assume it represented yours as well. But now I see that you do have different standards for you and for me.

There is no doubt that the families of their victims, and many in the society at large, see in the idea of a Muslim presence near Ground Zero as a painful reminder of what happened on 9-11. Nobody in his/her right mind would claim that these feeling should be discounted, or that the promoters of the Cordoba Project should discount them.

Gosh. I don't think I could have said that better myself.

The thing though, is that the promoters have done a lot to address these feelings and explain their intentions.

They've done nothing concrete to address those feelings. Nothing at all. "Explaining intentions" is meaningless. If someone is doing something that hurts you and then "explains" that 'I don't mean to hurt you' and then does nothing different, how is that "doing a lot" to address your feelings? It's "doing" absolutely nothing.

Most importantly, empathy towards the families and relatives of the feelings does not include condoning words of hatred and intolerance or misrepresentation of the intent of the promoters, whether they come from relatives of the victimms or people bent on advancing an intolerant agenda.

And again, I've never done any such thing. I don't know where this is coming from. Again, not all people opposing this project on that property are intolerant, bigots, or misrepresenting anything.

The only thing that makes it unrealistic is intolerance.

That's nothing more than your opinion, and with that opinion, you are totally dismissing the feelings of many people who have lost loved ones there. You are totally dismissing anyone and everyone's views that don't coincide with yours, and ironically, it's very intolerant on your part to do that. Tolerance is a two way street. By dismissing everyone who has concerns/feelings/emotions about this project as "intolerant" is painting everyone in opposition with the same brush.

And while evidently it's wrong to paint Muslims all with the same brush, it's a-ok for you to paint anyone who doesn't see things the way you do with the same brush, and accuse them of being intolerant. And apparently the irony of that escapes you. Unbelievable.

[Guest American Woman]

That might hold water if Imam Rauf & flock were mosqueless. He currently has a mosque on Warren Street...two blocks up from Park Place.

This isn't about "needing" a mosque; imam Rauf was the first to politicize this project, and the first to tie it in with 9-11 and Ground Zero. I don't understand how so many posters act as if Muslims have nowhere to pray if this mosque isn't built on this very property.

[DogOnPorch]

This isn't about "needing" a mosque; imam Rauf was the first to politicize this project, and the first to tie it in with 9-11 and Ground Zero. I don't understand how so many posters act as if Muslims have nowhere to pray if this mosque isn't built on this very property.

Well that's often the picture painted, isn't it? Poor Muslims...out on their rears with nowhere to pray. With the evil Glenn Beck chortling in the background, naturally. Some local New York commentator claimed there was already more room than Muslims in New York City mosques.

Edited August 30, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Smallc]

No I don't. But let's all stop pretending it's a very small percentage,

It is a very small percentage. It doesn't take a very big percentage on 1.5B. You simply want an excuse to propagate your bigotry.

[Guest American Woman]

Well that's often the picture painted, isn't it? Poor Muslims...out on their rears with nowhere to pray. With the evil Glenn Beck chortling in the background, naturally. Some local New York commentator claimed there was already more room than Muslims in New York City mosques.

To quote a NYC Muslim: "[The mosque] has caused so much pain. There are many mosques already in New York, nobody has ever opposed a mosque, if there is opposition to a mosque on grounds of hatred I would be the first to confront it. But over here it is a matter of sensitivity and there is no residential community even near the community center."

So there are "so many" mosques in NYC already and there is "no residential community" near this property.

One cannot deny that it's a political move; and it's backfired. To repeat:

"This is not a humble Islamic statement. A mosque such as this is actually a political structure that casts a shadow over a cemetery, over hallowed ground. 9/11 was the beginning of a kinetic war, it is not an opportunity for cultural exchange. It was the beginning of a conflict with those who want to destroy our way of life."

"...they want to use this Islamic center as a place for diplomacy to the Middle East to demonstrate that the United States is a place where Muslims thrive. But that has backfired because this could have been done in many other ways."

Edited August 30, 2010 by American Woman

[dre]

To quote a NYC Muslim: "[The mosque] has caused so much pain. There are many mosques already in New York, nobody has ever opposed a mosque, if there is opposition to a mosque on grounds of hatred I would be the first to confront it. But over here it is a matter of sensitivity and there is no residential community even near the community center."

So there are "so many" mosques in NYC already and there is "no residential community" near this property.

One cannot deny that it's a political move; and it's backfired. To repeat:

"This is not a humble Islamic statement. A mosque such as this is actually a political structure that casts a shadow over a cemetery, over hallowed ground. 9/11 was the beginning of a kinetic war, it is not an opportunity for cultural exchange. It was the beginning of a conflict with those who want to destroy our way of life."

"...they want to use this Islamic center as a place for diplomacy to the Middle East to demonstrate that the United States is a place where Muslims thrive. But that has backfired because this could have been done in many other ways."

Man! Ala MUST be real if a Mosque can cast a shadow through a couple of blocks of large buildings!

[ToadBrother]

Refute what I said and think, or I will keep reposting what I said and think in response to your ignorance/inability to comprehend what I said/dishonesty. Keep misrepresenting what I actually believe, keep putting your ignorant views on me, and you will keep seeing what I really think/believe repeated over and over again.

What you're saying amounts to this;

I don't blame all Muslims for 9-11, but some people do, and Muslims should restrict their lawful activities willingly so those bigots don't get further offended.

[bush_cheney2004]

What you're saying amounts to this;

I don't blame all Muslims for 9-11, but some people do, and Muslims should restrict their lawful activities willingly so those bigots don't get further offended.

Does this mean we can draw lawful cartoons of The Prophet Muhammad?