Judges.....two years for murder

[M.Dancer]

Anyone care to comment on recidivism rates over the decades? That might give us a better clue about the success (or lack of it) in the justice system.

Corrections canada won't give you a straight answer...As to what recividism means

[Argus]

That's right, crime is down.

The only reason crime appears to be down, or perhaps I should say "police reported crime" appears to be down is because of the lower percentage of young men as a fraction of the population. Ie, they're not commiting less crime. If anything, they're commiting more crime and more violent, vicious crime. But there are fewer of them, so police-reported-crime appears, statistically, to be down.

That in no way impacts the sense of vast injustice so many feel when violent people commit brutal crimes and then laugh as they're given a short break before going back about their business.

I think if we turn our justice system into a vengeance system we'll only end up cultivating harder criminals and see crime increase.

And you think this why? Because the brutality of crimes has increased, not decreased over the decades of your gentle, considerate approach to crime. Back when we were far more harsh on criminals and far less respectful of their rights the crime rate was far and away lower than it is now.

[Argus]

The fact that things have remained stable is cold comfort to any new victims! What's more, what is the timeline? Are things better or worse today than they were in the 70's, or the 60's? Have we gone in a positive or a negative direction?

As the gentle, caring, considerate approach took hold in the sixties, crime skyrocketed, and brutality became much, much worse. Police-reported crime has begun declining over the past decade, but it is still much higher than it was before the gentle, bleeding-heart liberal set took over the judicial, parole and prison systems.

[Argus]

The experts have brought us to a point where rehabilitation works better at preventing recidivism than harsh punishment.

You have some evidence to support that statement?

[Argus]

Our crime rates have been falling for 30 years. We must be doing something right.

To put the slight decreases in perspective, between 1962 and 2006, the violent crime rate in Canada, per 100,000, went from 221 to 951, or a 300%+ increase. (See chart below "Crime rates in Canada 1962 - 2006").

Violent Crime Statistics

[Smallc]

Or perhaps people are simply far more likely to report crime now, being as we live in an age of instant communication.

[Argus]

Or perhaps people are simply far more likely to report crime now, being as we live in an age of instant communication.

Unlikely. I think people are less likely to report all but the most violent crime because they have little faith in the police or courts to do anything about minor crime. I know of no one and I mean that, who has faith and confidence in the justice system. No one I know of has reported the crimes commited against them over the years, be it assault, theft, fraud, attempted rape, rape, robbery, etc. The common refrain is "why bother?" You report only crime that your insurance company requires you to report. And, of course, if you're in the hospital because someone has stabbed you or something, you'll tell the cops. Otherwise... pht. I've had a few things stolen from me over the years. I certainly never bothered to call the cops. What are they gonna do?

[nicky10013]

Unlikely. I think people are less likely to report all but the most violent crime because they have little faith in the police or courts to do anything about minor crime. I know of no one and I mean that, who has faith and confidence in the justice system. No one I know of has reported the crimes commited against them over the years, be it assault, theft, fraud, attempted rape, rape, robbery, etc. The common refrain is "why bother?" You report only crime that your insurance company requires you to report. And, of course, if you're in the hospital because someone has stabbed you or something, you'll tell the cops. Otherwise... pht. I've had a few things stolen from me over the years. I certainly never bothered to call the cops. What are they gonna do?

I think you're projecting your feelings regarding the justice system onto Canadian society which isn't fair.

[Argus]

I think you're projecting your feelings regarding the justice system onto Canadian society which isn't fair.

Stats Canada is quite clear that only a minority of crime is ever reported to police. We should know within the next couple of months what the new victims of crime survey says about crime rates. They do them every five years, and those surveys have not shown any fall in crime.

[Smallc]

Unlikely. I think people are less likely to report all but the most violent crime because they have little faith in the police or courts to do anything about minor crime.

Given the easy ability to call 911 or non emergency numbers, I doubt that. Anyone who I know reports even the most minor of crimes.

I know of no one and I mean that, who has faith and confidence in the justice system.

I know of no one who has faith in much of anything. They still take part in the things. Overall, there is no evidence that the system is doing us badly, or that locking people up for longer would somehow make things better. It would though, cost us more money.

[nicky10013]

Stats Canada is quite clear that only a minority of crime is ever reported to police. We should know within the next couple of months what the new victims of crime survey says about crime rates. They do them every five years, and those surveys have not shown any fall in crime.

Yeah, but only a minority of crime has ever been reported.

[Argus]

Yeah, but only a minority of crime has ever been reported.

We don't really know. I haven't seen any statistics on what percentage of crime was reported in say 1955, and I bet you haven't either.

[Smallc]

We don't really know. I haven't seen any statistics on what percentage of crime was reported in say 1955, and I bet you haven't either.

And yet you feel quite comfortable assuming that less crime is reported today.

[eyeball]

You have some evidence to support that statement?

Falling crime rates.

[Argus]

And yet you feel quite comfortable assuming that less crime is reported today.

It seems logical from the perspective of someone who can remember back to when police and the courts were nearly universally respected both for their skills and integrity. Who can remember when a cop would come to your door and treat it seriously when you reported a minor crime. To when police were EXPECTED to treat even minor burglaries with serious efforts at finding the persons responsible.

Now everyone knows they won't do anything about minor crimes. You have to go down there and fill out a report which gets filed and forgotten. So no one bothers unless they can claim insurance.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Argus

[eyeball]

Yes you did. You said it a couple of hours ago.

Politicians, almost exclusively conservative one's, have simply brought us to a place where punishment is laughable.

By fueling cynicism and scorn for justice, in the meantime they have done dick all to prevent crime.

[Argus]

Falling crime rates.

Your statement was that rehabilitiation works better. I asked you for why and you have nothing to offer.

Or do you actully think rehabilitation efforts are common or commonly succesful in our prison system? What do you imagine happens there? That criminals get long, intensive dialogues going with therapists, then are taught the errors of their ways?

[M.Dancer]

Politicians, almost exclusively conservative one's, have simply brought us to a place where punishment is laughable.

By fueling cynicism and scorn for justice, in the meantime they have done dick all to prevent crime.

I'll humour you...how have they fueled all of that?

[eyeball]

Your statement was that rehabilitiation works better. I asked you for why and you have nothing to offer.

Or do you actully think rehabilitation efforts are common or commonly succesful in our prison system?

I just think rehabilitation is the better way to go. Crackin' down and gettin' tough (almost exclusively on drugs) appears to have been worse than a complete waste of time, all it's done is fueled more violence, bred harder criminals and resulted in more cynical scornful conservatives.

Edited May 11, 2010 by eyeball

[Handsome Rob]

I just think rehabilitation is the better way to go. Crackin' down and gettin' tough (almost exclusively on drugs) appears to have been worse than a complete waste of time, all it's done is fueled more violence, bred harder criminals and resulted in more cynical scornful conservatives.

Does this ideal include people with 32 priors?

[Army Guy]

Our crime rates have been falling for 30 years. We must be doing something right.

So we are back to that, crime rates are falling so the system is not broken....and 2 year sentence for murder is acceptable...which is the piont for alot of posters here...it's not acceptable it's a slap in the face to the victims. While thier may be alot of things right about our system the sentencing is screwed.

[Wilber]

So we are back to that, crime rates are falling so the system is not broken....and 2 year sentence for murder is acceptable...which is the piont for alot of posters here...it's not acceptable it's a slap in the face to the victims. While thier may be alot of things right about our system the sentencing is screwed.

Good point, why do any jail time at all for murder if less is better.

[Handsome Rob]

Good point, why do any jail time at all for murder if less is better.

We do that too. Well, post sentencing jail time.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1179993.html

James Vessey’s life changed forever last June 2 when he crossed paths with a violent young stranger in a Bedford parking lot.

The 20-year-old was sitting in his car minding his own business at about 9:30 p.m., waiting to meet up with some friends to watch a Stanley Cup playoff game.

The other young man, a Halifax teenager whose name can’t be published, had been drinking and went looking for trouble after he thought Vessey looked at him the wrong way.

The 16-year-old boy walked up to Vessey’s car window and, after a brief exchange of words, reached in and stabbed him in the chest.

Vessey staggered into a nearby Tim Hortons clutching his chest and collapsed on the floor, his blood pooling around him.

The knife had just missed Vessey’s heart, puncturing the sac around it. Doctors at the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre performed open-heart surgery to save his life.

The teenager was arrested three days later and charged with attempted murder and two other offences. He spent 10 days in custody before the Crown agreed to his release with electronic monitoring.

The boy, who had no previous convictions, pleaded guilty in January to aggravated assault and possession of a weapon. He returned to Halifax youth court Wednesday for sentencing.

Judge Pam Williams accepted a joint sentencing recommendation from Crown attorney John Nisbet and defence lawyer Stan MacDonald. The boy, now 17, won’t serve any time in jail but will be under strict supervision for two years.

[Army Guy]

Good point, why do any jail time at all for murder if less is better.

Because there will come a piont in time when citizens will take the law into thier own hands...and with little to no consquence for thier actions, what will keep us all in check....I'm not sure how i would react if someone had murdered one of my family members and only recieved 2 years as punishment...it is not the justice system i'd expect for a nation like ours.

[Smallc]

Because there will come a piont in time when citizens will take the law into thier own hands...and with little to no consquence for thier actions, what will keep us all in check.

Good luck with that. The reality is, we have rather long sentences in comparison to many countries with much lower crime rates. People aren't going to take things into their own hands...and if they do, they'll be punished.