Attention Forum Socialists

[bloodyminded]

And how exactly are you making life better for people at the bottom by trapping them into a lifestyle of government dependency?

Social programs have not lived up to their promise, that seems true enough. But they're better than the alternative.

How much of the population has had some measure of material safety and comfort after the social programs started, as opposed to before?

I know we enjoy our uplifting, traditional myths about how our ancestors all pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and achieved some level of success...until Big Government ruined it all by making people dependent.

But it is myth.

The fact is, since the implementation of social programs and safety nets, the middle class expanded, more people became rich, the rich people got richer, and the poor, by and large, suffered less. Meanwhile, in the midst of these innovation-destroying programs (as we are soberly informed they are) have seen the greatest technological, scientific, medical, and civil rights improvements ever seen in history, anywhere, ever, in such a relatively short period of time.

Edited April 30, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Argus]

How are you making life better for those at the bottom, if you're bankrupting the entire system that pays for it? And how exactly are you making life better for people at the bottom by trapping them into a lifestyle of government dependency?

Actually, Shady, if you look at Europe, you don't see this "lifestyle of government dependancy" to the same extent you see it in the American inner cities. You don't see familes living for generations on welfare in Europe. And while some countries are economiclly screwed up that's often due to bad government - including the horrifically bad Republican government which ran the US deep into debt over the last eight years. Other social democratic governments in Europe are doing comparatively better, such as the Germans and the nordic countries.

It's bad government you should fear, not Socialists. People who don't care about solid financial foundations for their budgets - like George Bush - who was certainly no Socialist.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's a "forced tithe" that delivers a better life to those at the bottom. Have a look at the worst parts of American cities, and you'll see how bad things can get under pure capitalism.

Sure....just as bad as Toronto or Vancouver!

There is no such thing as "pure capitalism" at work anywhere in the USA.

[Sir Bandelot]

Actually, Shady, if you look at Europe, you don't see this "lifestyle of government dependancy" to the same extent you see it in the American inner cities. You don't see familes living for generations on welfare in Europe. And while some countries are economiclly screwed up that's often due to bad government - including the horrifically bad Republican government which ran the US deep into debt over the last eight years. Other social democratic governments in Europe are doing comparatively better, such as the Germans and the nordic countries.

It's bad government you should fear, not Socialists. People who don't care about solid financial foundations for their budgets - like George Bush - who was certainly no Socialist.

Whoa! What happened to you? Did you have an epiphany?

This is not the same Argus I've come to know and love...

[Smallc]

Sure....just as bad as Toronto or Vancouver!

You could only wish. Those two cities don't have near the problems...especially not Toronto.

[bush_cheney2004]

You could only wish. Those two cities don't have near the problems...especially not Toronto.

I think it is you who engages in "wishful" thinking:

Facts & Figures about Toronto Housing Conditions

Most people think that slums are a feature of US inner cities. But many Canadians would be shocked to find that housing conditions in some parts of Toronto are as bad or worse than in New York, Chicago or Los Angeles.

Many people even come to Toronto from the so-called Third World to find housing conditions worse then what they left at home.

Toronto's slums are populated by the working poor, people on fixed incomes and recent immigrants. The rents are generally not that much less than "cleaner" better maintained buildings.

But often these better buildings are not accessible to the poor or new immigrants. There is a hidden but clear pattern of discriminatory rental practices.

We are creating ghettoes.

They are clustered in various parts of the city.

**********************************

http://www.torontoslumtourism.com/our-facts.php

[Bonam]

Also the core of Vancouver's downtown eastside, though a relatively small area, has got to be about as bad as any slum in North America. Those few blocks are literally completely covered in throngs of drugged up zombies.

[WIP]

These are the products of your policies!

Greek bonds rated 'junk'

BBC

Spain downgraded as Europe debt crisis widens

AP

Europe debt crisis spreads to Portugal

AP

Britain confronts debt of Greek proportions

MSNBC

Enough is enough!!!! :angry:

It looks like you've provided evidence for the failure of capitalism rather than socialism! None of these countries are socialist, since they are locked into the international ponzi scheme: Wall St. Helped to Mask Debt Fueling Europe’s Crisis

I would just like to know how you figure this is going to take down European "socialist" countries...which includes England for some strange reason....and will have no affect on us or the U.S. If the IMF starts talking bailouts or refinancing for Greece, they are going to expect the U.S. to cough up most of the money to guarantee Greece's debt.

[Smallc]

Also the core of Vancouver's downtown eastside, though a relatively small area, has got to be about as bad as any slum in North America. Those few blocks are literally completely covered in throngs of drugged up zombies.

Yes, Vancouver has a full bad blocks. Toronto apparently has some BS non linked article about it.

[eyeball]

It's bad government you should fear, not Socialists.

Say what?

[Pliny]

It looks like you've provided evidence for the failure of capitalism rather than socialism! None of these countries are socialist, since they are locked into the international ponzi scheme: Wall St. Helped to Mask Debt Fueling Europe’s Crisis

I would just like to know how you figure this is going to take down European "socialist" countries...which includes England for some strange reason....and will have no affect on us or the U.S. If the IMF starts talking bailouts or refinancing for Greece, they are going to expect the U.S. to cough up most of the money to guarantee Greece's debt.

Europe isn't socialist at all?

What was/is socialist then? The USSR? Nazi Germany? Cuba? China under Mao?

Socialism is not an ideal it is a process that achieves an ideal. Europe is deep in the process. The International ponzi scheme is socialist in nature - it is about the centralization of economic control.

[Shady]

Actually, Shady, if you look at Europe, you don't see this "lifestyle of government dependancy" to the same extent you see it in the American inner cities.

I disagree. Take a look at the riots in Greece, or in France when government proposes spending cuts, or pay freezes, or pension reform, or vacation reform, or hiring reform, etc, etc, etc.

And while some countries are economiclly screwed up that's often due to bad government - including the horrifically bad Republican government which ran the US deep into debt over the last eight years.

Yes, bad government following big government, socialist type policies. George Bush may not have been a socialist, but he was definitely a big government Republican. And the Democrats actually controlled congress for 4 of his 8 years.

Other social democratic governments in Europe are doing comparatively better, such as the Germans and the nordic countries.

Yes, the less they practice European socialism, the more they tend to do better.

It's bad government you should fear, not Socialists. People who don't care about solid financial foundations for their budgets - like George Bush - who was certainly no Socialist.

Socialism is bad government. Like I've already said, George Bush may not have been a socialist, but he was definitely a proponent of big government, which basically has the same effect.

None of these countries are socialist

Of course not.

They've just been practicing European socialist policy for several decades now. And the chickens have come home to roost.

[WIP]

Europe isn't socialist at all?

What was/is socialist then? The USSR? Nazi Germany? Cuba? China under Mao?

The only distinction between socialism and communism is that socialism is supposed to be about economic policy only, and exist under a democratic political structure. 30 or 40 years ago, the Socialist parties in Europe, like Mitterand's Socialist Party in France, campaigned on a platform of nationalizing banks and other major industries. Those plans for nationalization were mostly scrapped when Socialists actually formed governments because the economic costs of being frozen out of the global finance and trade systems were just too great. And in this day and age under globalization, the IMF and the World Bank own the debt of most nations except for a few outcasts.

Long story short, these "Social Democratic" governments are not socialist...they are merely capitalist economies with higher taxes and government services. And even that level of "socialism" is lost when the IMF owns their debt and starts demanding government cuts and fiscal austerity....such as the ones causing riots today in Greece!

In a number of Third World countries, the IMF and World Bank operate like payday loan companies, loaning dictators large sums of money that they can't pay back. In some Latin American countries such as Argentina, Columbia, Bolivia, Ecuador, Uruguay and others, they sent their own "financial experts" to sit in with the government ministers and draw up austerity budgets that demanded tax increases, cuts to government services and privatization of mining and other resource industries. Looking at it from an economic perspective, it ends up with a whole new term being needing to be created: Neocolonization -- since these countries end up being wards of the IMF or the World Bank, and lose any say over what kind of government they have (whatever the political party) and worse, end up having to sign off on control over their natural resources, which is the primary objective of MoneyMart international finance.

Socialism is not an ideal it is a process that achieves an ideal. Europe is deep in the process. The International ponzi scheme is socialist in nature - it is about the centralization of economic control.

Did you read anything about what's happening in Greece lately? They've been forced to make deep cuts in government spending and have lost economic control to maintain access to international credit markets. Speaking as a former libertarian, I feel like we've been played for suckers by having our attention focused only on the pitfalls of government, without noticing the growing power of international corporate citizens have taken over our lives.

Especially now, after we've had a glimpse of what goes on behind the scenes at investment banking and derivatives trading, we need to be more concerned about Big Corporate controlling our lives than Big Government.

[Jack Weber]

Europe isn't socialist at all?

What was/is socialist then? The USSR? Nazi Germany? Cuba? China under Mao?

Socialism is not an ideal it is a process that achieves an ideal. Europe is deep in the process. The International ponzi scheme is socialist in nature - it is about the centralization of economic control.

The NAZI's were NOT socialists at all...Fascists,plain and simple....

[Pliny]

The NAZI's were NOT socialists at all...Fascists,plain and simple....

Interesting, since the term "Nazi" is coined from the "National Socialist" Party.

[eyeball]

The NAZI's were NOT socialists at all...Fascists,plain and simple....

Interesting, since the term "Nazi" is coined from the "National Socialist" Party.

In B.C. right wing conservatives have to call themselves Liberals to get any respect. In any case it's what people do, not what they are, that matters.

Edited May 1, 2010 by eyeball

[Topaz]

What is happening in Greece is serious and lets hope we don't feel the effect from our own problems with personal and mortgage debt as the rates start to climb next month. http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/30/sovereign-debt-subprime-smart-money-markets-greece-lenzner-streettalk.html?boxes=financechannellatest

[Pliny]

The only distinction between socialism and communism is that socialism is supposed to be about economic policy only, and exist under a democratic political structure. 30 or 40 years ago, the Socialist parties in Europe, like Mitterand's Socialist Party in France, campaigned on a platform of nationalizing banks and other major industries. Those plans for nationalization were mostly scrapped when Socialists actually formed governments because the economic costs of being frozen out of the global finance and trade systems were just too great. And in this day and age under globalization, the IMF and the World Bank own the debt of most nations except for a few outcasts.

Long story short, these "Social Democratic" governments are not socialist...they are merely capitalist economies with higher taxes and government services. And even that level of "socialism" is lost when the IMF owns their debt and starts demanding government cuts and fiscal austerity....such as the ones causing riots today in Greece!

Communism is a revolutionary means of acheiving the totalitarian state, it is an international movement and is mostly dead. It's latest incarnation is in activist Environmentalism. Socialism is the evolutionary progression to the total state.

In a number of Third World countries, the IMF and World Bank operate like payday loan companies, loaning dictators large sums of money that they can't pay back. In some Latin American countries such as Argentina, Columbia, Bolivia, Ecuador, Uruguay and others, they sent their own "financial experts" to sit in with the government ministers and draw up austerity budgets that demanded tax increases, cuts to government services and privatization of mining and other resource industries. Looking at it from an economic perspective, it ends up with a whole new term being needing to be created: Neocolonization -- since these countries end up being wards of the IMF or the World Bank, and lose any say over what kind of government they have (whatever the political party) and worse, end up having to sign off on control over their natural resources, which is the primary objective of MoneyMart international finance.

Did you read anything about what's happening in Greece lately? They've been forced to make deep cuts in government spending and have lost economic control to maintain access to international credit markets. Speaking as a former libertarian, I feel like we've been played for suckers by having our attention focused only on the pitfalls of government, without noticing the wer of international corporate citizens have taken over our lives.

Especially now, after we've had a glimpse of what goes on behind the scenes at investment banking and derivatives trading, we need to be more concerned about Big Corporate controlling our lives than Big Government.

Well, it seems a question of who is the puppet and who is the puppet master.

Capitalism hasn't existed for a century. Corporatism, which I belive you are describing is closer to fascism, another form of socialism.

There is no doubt that economic means of control has proven more effective than military control which has made Communism a failure. There is still a movement towards centralizing power it is called "progressivism", another name for socialism.

[Pliny]

In B.C. right wing conservatives have to call themselves Liberals to get any respect. In any case it's what people do, not what they are, that matters.

You are correct I beleive.

One of the biggest problems in understanding government is having slippery and everchanging definitions which tends to obfuscate. Of course the argument is that language is always changing but it never changes faster than in politics. Just when you think you understand something it becomes something else.

[bloodyminded]

Interesting, since the term "Nazi" is coined from the "National Socialist" Party.

It's as meaningful and telling as "People's Republic."

[Sir Bandelot]

It's as meaningful and telling as "People's Republic."

Or, "United States"...

[Jack Weber]

Interesting, since the term "Nazi" is coined from the "National Socialist" Party.

It is interesting,but it's simply semantics.The NAZI party was the most virulent form of Fascism we have ever seen.They were definately NOT Communists or Socialists...

[bush_cheney2004]

Or, "United States"...

..or "Constitutional Monarchy".

[Sir Bandelot]

..or "Constitutional Monarchy".

"Land of the free..."

[bush_cheney2004]

"Land of the free..."

"visible minority"