Is it OK to insult Islam in Canada?

[Michael Hardner]

And rarely do people make movies "insulting" religion. They make movies that are critical of their religion, or sometimes that lampoon their religion in an insulting way.

Every example I can think of involves somebody making a movie critical of their own religion. Rarely, you may see a Christian or a Jew making a film that contains a critical view of the other religion. As for Islam in Hollywood, it's a joke to even consider how it's depicted - pretty much the stock character is a terrorist. I suppose that's insulting.

Irshad Manji was a MuchMusic VJ who wrote some thoughtful tracts critical of her own religion. This, to my mind, was a great example of Canadian multiculturalism.

[MightyAC]

For me the key word is insult. It seems that disagreeing with religious positions or the political actions of organized religion is considered an insult. People go out of their way to be insulted or offended. It should be OK to disagree with Christianity, Islam, Judaism or even the actions of Israel but many would have us believe that somehow religious beliefs are untouchable.

[bloodyminded]

For me the key word is insult. It seems that disagreeing with religious positions or the political actions of organized religion is considered an insult. People go out of their way to be insulted or offended. It should be OK to disagree with Christianity, Islam, Judaism or even the actions of Israel but many would have us believe that somehow religious beliefs are untouchable.

Sure, or at least that their own particular religious beliefs should be untouchable. If I can be rude for a moment, I say "screw that noise."

[Shwa]

Here's a test for Hollywood courage: make a movie about how women are treated in the Middle East and see how much more protection you'll need at the red carpet, let alone your own home.

A better test for Hollywood "courage" (or Toronto or Montreal) perhaps should be making a movie about how women are treated in North America:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes

Interesting to note that Canada, with 1/10 the population of the US, has 1/4th as many rapes as the US.

How about a movie about all the battered women in Canada or the US?

http://www42.statcan.gc.ca/smr08/smr08_012-eng.htm

http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

Wait, I forget: the simulation of women being raped, beated or murdered is on TV every single day on multiple channels. That's entertainment for you.

So sure, go ahead and insult Islam. Bring some TV cameras along with you. Should make for some compelling "reality" TV drama.

[Muddy]

A better test for Hollywood "courage" (or Toronto or Montreal) perhaps should be making a movie about how women are treated in North America:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes

Interesting to note that Canada, with 1/10 the population of the US, has 1/4th as many rapes as the US.

How about a movie about all the battered women in Canada or the US?

http://www42.statcan.gc.ca/smr08/smr08_012-eng.htm

http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

Wait, I forget: the simulation of women being raped, beated or murdered is on TV every single day on multiple channels. That's entertainment for you.

So sure, go ahead and insult Islam. Bring some TV cameras along with you. Should make for some compelling "reality" TV drama.

The big difference is in our world ,we as a society do not condone the raping of little girls,then stoning them to death for their transgression in the eyes of Islam. We don`t condone forced arranged marriages. We don`t condone forced circumscion on children. Our women can own property. They can go on walk abouts with out a male family member present.They can drive cars or trucks for that matter. They do not have to wear a tent. We don`t stone women who commit adultry or are raped. I could go on but I know I am calling upon deaf ears to listen.

sometimes I think I am the only feminist on this board and yet I am but a an old crumudgeon of a guy.I guess Mom taught me repect for what was then the weaker and better smelling sex.

[Sir Bandelot]

Your question asks, is it OK to insult Islam. What do you mean by "OK"? By what standard ok. By law? By the attitude of people in general? Or just ok by me.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[GostHacked]

Better get to it. There's still a lot of Arab states to go, and that crude ain't gonna last forever~

I mean Saudi Arabia is perfect for an invasion, they have lots of oil right??

I make fun of all religions, I think they are equally idiotic on the whole.

[M.Dancer]

Irshad Manji was a MuchMusic VJ ....

No, she wasn't.

[Michael Hardner]

No, she wasn't.

I stand corrected - she was a host of a CityTV show - QueerTV - and was a frequent guest on MuchMusic as well. She went on to write a book that was critical of her religion. She's evidence against any statement that there are no voices of criticism, or no proponents of reform.

[myata]

If the reason is a bias towards reality, it's not ideological or racial and therefor it's fair game.

No, I don't agree. One man's "reality" is another's Hell and therefore that excuse is no better than any other.

[ToadBrother]

Yes, it is ok to insult it. You'll probably be put out to dry by other people who will denounce you as a "racist", prosecuted by a "human rights commission", and possibly murdered by fanatics, but it's still your right to insult it.

I think any religion is fair game, myself. I reserve the right to his insult Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Judaism, and so on and so forth.

In a free country, even insulting speech must be protected.

[Michael Hardner]

Isn't asking about the "rights to insult" aurally equivalent asking about the right to pass gas ?

I don't think anyone doubts the rights to free expression, but someone does have to wonder why an individual is planning out their insults in advance in this fashion. I expect insults to happen in an immediate fashion, without thought to the consequences. Asking ahead of time what your rights are with respect to insults indicates, to me, a level of smug rudeness that is as undesirable as some of the traits that the insulter despises.

[eyeball]

No, I don't agree. One man's "reality" is another's Hell and therefore that excuse is no better than any other.

It's not an excuse. The physical laws of the universe are the same for everyone. It simply doesn't matter if don't agree.

[Muddy]

Irshad Manji.The trouble with Islam. What a courageous young women. Her and that Tarik whats his name are great examples of how Islam should be practiced .But of course there is a price on their heads buy the religion of peace.

[myata]

It's not an excuse. The physical laws of the universe are the same for everyone. It simply doesn't matter if don't agree.

No physical law disproves the existence of god(s), in general or particular variation thereof. However if we note the nature's law of evolution, it dictates that survivability of any species is related to their diversity and ability to adapt. Insulting somebody who's views are different from mine to force them to be(come) just like me is a sure way to eliminate diversity and the inevitable conclusion from there.

[M.Dancer]

Irshad Manji.The trouble with Islam. What a courageous young women. Her and that Tarik whats his name are great examples of how Islam should be practiced .But of course there is a price on their heads buy the religion of peace.

Living in the comfort of Toronto makes it easier for her. Reform of Islam imo, won't originate in Leaside or Forest Hill.

[Shwa]

The big difference is in our world ,we as a society do not condone the raping of little girls,then stoning them to death for their transgression in the eyes of Islam. We don`t condone forced arranged marriages. We don`t condone forced circumscion on children. Our women can own property. They can go on walk abouts with out a male family member present.They can drive cars or trucks for that matter. They do not have to wear a tent. We don`t stone women who commit adultry or are raped. I could go on but I know I am calling upon deaf ears to listen. sometimes I think I am the only feminist on this board and yet I am but a an old crumudgeon of a guy.I guess Mom taught me repect for what was then the weaker and better smelling sex.

The problem is that you mistake specific and sensational instances of different culture groups for a general condition of Islamic "society" rendering what you have to say as utter nonsense. Of every instance you cite above, one can easily draw a similar general conclusion about our own society. And I bet you are completely unaware of how your argument drops credibility aren't you?

Brutal.

[M.Dancer]

Of every instance you cite above, one can easily draw a similar general conclusion about our own society.

Nonsense. Please cite any modern judicial rulings where someone found adulterous has been given a criminal sentence of any sort. Then we can move on to blasphemony, etc etc...

[bloodyminded]

The big difference is in our world ,we as a society do not condone the raping of little girls,then stoning them to death for their transgression in the eyes of Islam. We don`t condone forced arranged marriages. We don`t condone forced circumscion on children. Our women can own property. They can go on walk abouts with out a male family member present.They can drive cars or trucks for that matter. They do not have to wear a tent. We don`t stone women who commit adultry or are raped. I could go on but I know I am calling upon deaf ears to listen.

sometimes I think I am the only feminist on this board and yet I am but a an old crumudgeon of a guy.I guess Mom taught me repect for what was then the weaker and better smelling sex.

But this is not a tran-Muslim way of thinking, thank Godzilla. Most Muslims do not condone any of the horrors that you mention. The tendency to overgeneralize in a rampant way is not helpful.

In fact, one of the reasons so amny Muslims have an issue with Western nations is because of our long-term support for so many tyrants, whom are despised by their people.

[bloodyminded]

No physical law disproves the existence of god(s), in general or particular variation thereof. However if we note the nature's law of evolution, it dictates that survivability of any species is related to their diversity and ability to adapt. Insulting somebody who's views are different from mine to force them to be(come) just like me is a sure way to eliminate diversity and the inevitable conclusion from there.

But eyeball was certainly not condoning "force[ing]" anyone.

[Michael Hardner]

Nonsense. Please cite any modern judicial rulings where someone found adulterous has been given a criminal sentence of any sort. Then we can move on to blasphemony, etc etc...

But you are not using the same standard Muddy has used, while you are defending him.

He attributes threats made by an adherent to that religion. So all we have to do is come up with a similar threat, and all is square. You can't easily jump in on such threads and try to defend extreme views, when your argument doesn't use the same elephant-gun technique as your team-mates.

[M.Dancer]

• We don`t condone forced arranged marriages. We don`t condone forced circumscion on children.
  
• Our women can own property. They can go on walk abouts with out a male family member present.
  
• They can drive cars or trucks for that matter.
  
• They do not have to wear a tent.
  
• We don`t stone women who commit adultry or are raped.
  

But you are not using the same standard Muddy has used, while you are defending him.

He attributes threats made by an adherent to that religion. So all we have to do is come up with a similar threat, and all is square. You can't easily jump in on such threads and try to defend extreme views, when your argument doesn't use the same elephant-gun technique as your team-mates.

I never defend extreme views. Muddy's view isn't extreme, it's fairly accurate and if as Shwa claims:

Of every instance you cite above, one can easily draw a similar general conclusion about our own society.

If as shwa claims, he should have no problem finding comparitors.

[Michael Hardner]

Muddy's view isn't extreme, it's fairly accurate ...

But of course there is a price on their heads buy the religion of peace.

Spelling mistake notwithstanding, the meaning is there. This is the standard practice brought to the board by anti-Islam bigots all the time: blame everyone in the religion, or in this case "the religion" for the actions of extremists.

It could be a springboard for many interesting and enlightening discussions if brought forward properly, but it's not meant to be anything but a feel-good slam of immigrants.

Not sure whether this signals a change by you and a step towards joining the "boys in the bund" but I imagine it's just you striking out against some do-gooder that you don't like today. I will put your reasoning on your shoulders and not blame the Scottish race for your latest misdeeds.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Michael Hardner

[M.Dancer]

Spelling mistake notwithstanding, the meaning is there. This is the standard practice brought to the board by anti-Islam bigots all the time: blame everyone in the religion, or in this case "the religion" for the actions of extremists.

Here's an exercise.

Count and name every nation where islam is an integral part of the culture.

Then identify the nations from that list where freedom of concience, religion, expression etc etc, exists.

It is fine to say that many, if not most, do not approve of harsh islamic law, but if they tolerate it....what is the difference? And charming, well spoken lesbian muslims in the comfort of Western civilization are even more marginal than the murderous clerics they condemn.

[Michael Hardner]

Here's an exercise.

Count and name every nation where islam is an integral part of the culture.

Then identify the nations from that list where freedom of concience, religion, expression etc etc, exists.

It is fine to say that many, if not most, do not approve of harsh islamic law, but if they tolerate it....what is the difference? And charming, well spoken lesbian muslims in the comfort of Western civilization are even more marginal than the murderous clerics they condemn.

What exactly are you condemning ? The country, the culture of that country or the religion ?

Muddy is pretty specific about condemning the religion. I'm fine with someone being critical of barbaric practices in any culture, as long as the critic has a broad knowledge and is not just exercising chauvinism under the guise of cultural criticism. And of course, said person should also be aware of practices done by other religions, otherwise what is driving their criticism ?

You'll probably find that the number of posters here who can provide objective criticism on such topics is extremely limited, and overshadowed by the Lictors of the board who claim to wear a mortarboard, but really wear the bedsheet...