Contraception not welcome in PMO G8 Maternal Health policy

[GostHacked]

Money is better spent of health care, nutrition and education.

Education on family planning. Agreed.

Education on health care, which includes family planning. Agreed.

[nicky10013]

flippity floppity flippity floppity....

Does this government have ANY control over the agenda anymore? I thought this was supposed to be their trademark.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/contraception-a-part-of-maternal-health-plan-harper-says/article1505160/

[waldo]

flippity floppity flippity floppity....

Does this government have ANY control over the agenda anymore? I thought this was supposed to be their trademark.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/contraception-a-part-of-maternal-health-plan-harper-says/article1505160/

that Harper 180° move left skid-marks all over Cannon and Oda - it's not clear if Dancer has that same move on his dance card. Agenda control? Oh ya... Conservative agenda vox populi. Hello! Can someone alert the PMO to the fundamentals of a focus group methodology

The Conservatives are starting to make a habit of throwing out initiatives designed either to broaden support among centrist voters or to placate the conservative base, only to abandon the plan after protests from the conservative base or centrist voters.

[M.Dancer]

Education on family planning. Agreed.

Education on health care, which includes family planning. Agreed.

I would agree with that too. Although convincing a farmer she shouldn't have 6 kids will be hard.

[M.Dancer]

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/03/18/birth-control-maternal-health.html

Sounds acceptable to me.

Interesting....given that it was the Liberals who brought up abortion and demanded it be included, I wonder what line they will take now....will they acknowledge that in their thoughts, abortion is a legitimate birth control option?

[M.Dancer]

this thread is not about Dancer's bulbous attempts to extend upon the OPs thread premise, to succumb to his preferential consideration of the omissions of the Harper Conservatives, to accept his deflections, to endure his obfuscation.

Would you like to discuss why abortion was brought up by the Liberals?

[DrGreenthumb]

Would you like to discuss why abortion was brought up by the Liberals?

Oh stop trying to change the subject, your attempts at deflection are too obvious.

[M.Dancer]

Oh stop trying to change the subject, your attempts at deflection are too obvious.

While I am impressed that you were able to use the word deflection in its proper context, the topic of abortion and the introduction of it to the debate by the Liberals is indeed part of the subject....even if it is too uncomfortable and undefendable by you and those you mimic.

[nicky10013]

While I am impressed that you were able to use the word deflection in its proper context, the topic of abortion and the introduction of it to the debate by the Liberals is indeed part of the subject....even if it is too uncomfortable and undefendable by you and those you mimic.

Undefendable? I'm pretty sure a lot of people here having been bringing up the necessity for contraception and abortion. It's the Conservatives that don't want to have the debate. Why would it be an uncomfortable position for the Liberals? Most of Canada supports a woman's right to choose. If they didn't, Harper wouldn't have flip flopped.

If he's such a strong and able politician so in tune with his party's ideology, why'd he do it? No, the only uncomfortable thing is Conservatives who don't like abortion now have to support a party that has said it's in favour of it.

[Keepitsimple]

I posted it previously but it bears repeating. The usual suspects are using the feel-good euphemism "Family Planning". Sounds like a nice fuzzy term but what does it really mean?

Here's a few topics that show the danger of using a loaded term like Family Planning. I'm sure there are more.....so how can someone really say they are for or against "Family Planning". I'm sure people on the Left and Right would have a problem with some of these:

1) Use of condoms

2) Birth Control Pills

3) Manual devices

4) Education: Teaching abstinence

6) Education/Culture/Religion: Sex/children outside of marriage

7) Education/Culture/Religion: Abortion - by what rules?

8) Education: How many children?

9) Adoption

Edited March 19, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[nicky10013]

I posted it previously but it bears repeating. The usual suspects are using the feel-good euphemism "Family Planning". Sounds like a nice fuzzy term but what does it really mean?

Here's a few topics that show the danger of using a loaded term like Family Planning. I'm sure there are more.....so how can someone really say they are for or against "Family Planning". I'm sure people on the Left and Right would have a problem with some of these:

1) Use of condoms

2) Birth Control Pills

3) Manual devices

4) Education: Teaching abstinence

6) Education/Culture/Religion: Sex/children outside of marriage

7) Education/Culture/Religion: Abortion - by what rules?

8) Education: How many children?

9) Adoption

nope

[Smallc]

nope

seconded.

[M.Dancer]

Most of Canada supports a woman's right to choose.

But do they support canadian taxpayers paying for foreigners in foreign lands to abort their babies?

[M.Dancer]

I'm pretty sure a lot of people here having been bringing up the necessity for contraception and abortion.

They have been running from the Liberal demand for abortion to be included like a hippy runs from soap.

[nicky10013]

But do they support canadian taxpayers paying for foreigners in foreign lands to abort their babies?

Well, considering the reaction to the issue - to the extent where Harper had to change his position - I'd say the overwhelming answer is yes.

[nicky10013]

They have been running from the Liberal demand for abortion to be included like a hippy runs from soap.

Ahhh, so I suppose this is what's known as subjective reality.

[Jack Weber]

Frankly,excluding the potential moral implications....Was'nt the issue of not talking about contraception AND the no mention of gay rights in the Citizenship guide basically a sop to the social conservative wing of the Conservative Party of Canada?

The flip flop on the contraception issue tells me that the Cons were'nt terribly stuck on the idea once the shreeking and howling began...

[nicky10013]

Frankly,excluding the potential moral implications....Was'nt the issue of not talking about contraception AND the no mention of gay rights in the Citizenship guide basically a sop to the social conservative wing of the Conservative Party of Canada?

The flip flop on the contraception issue tells me that the Cons were'nt terribly stuck on the idea once the shreeking and howling began...

It tells me that, like the past two times they've prorogued parliament, they're willing to do ANYTHING to keep even the slightest grip on power; including throwing their ideology under the bus.

[M.Dancer]

Ahhh, so I suppose this is what's known as subjective reality.

If you supposes are as accurate as your assumptions then they will be as pertinent as your irrelevancies.

[Jack Weber]

It tells me that, like the past two times they've prorogued parliament, they're willing to do ANYTHING to keep even the slightest grip on power; including throwing their ideology under the bus.

Absolutely!!!

It's power over principle because even Harper knows that if they go hard on the social conservative stuff they would become essentially unelectable in most places East of the Manitoba border.That's why they've softened the edges off the hardcore Reform past....But it pops up on them from time to time to bite them in the butt...It also reminds people why they get a little concerned about voting for the cons as long as they have that Reform streak in them...If they returned to their Reform roots,they would never retain power....

[M.Dancer]

Liberals wield abortion as wedge

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberals-wield-abortion-as-wedge/article1506355/

It is every canadians right to pay for a foreign abortion.

[Smallc]

Absolutely!!!

It's power over principle because even Harper knows that if they go hard on the social conservative stuff they would become essentially unelectable in most places East of the Manitoba border.

Not to mention large swaths of Winnipeg, northern Manitoba, Regina, Edmonton, and the lower mainland.

[Molly]

Fact is, if you aren't dealing with family planning, contraception, and abortion services, you just plain aren't addressing child and maternal health. They are integral. To remove them from the list is like removing food from the list of services your lunch program would provide.

It is both sad and thoroughly entertaining to watch the political gymnastics as the Conservatives try to satisfy both those who demand that the money be spent usefully, and those whose political/religious mysogyny binds their most basic grasp of what women's health entails.

[Wild Bill]

Absolutely!!!

It's power over principle because even Harper knows that if they go hard on the social conservative stuff they would become essentially unelectable in most places East of the Manitoba border.That's why they've softened the edges off the hardcore Reform past....But it pops up on them from time to time to bite them in the butt...It also reminds people why they get a little concerned about voting for the cons as long as they have that Reform streak in them...If they returned to their Reform roots,they would never retain power....

"Reform roots"? What roots would those be? I was there from the beginning and you'll never meet a more devout agnostic libertarian than myself! I knew there were some "bible thumpers" in the party with fundamentalist views but I never actually ran across one. Stockwell Day turned out to be one but he hid it very well during his leadership campaign. As soon as he dropped the mask after becoming leader we all couldn't dump him fast enough! If you paid attention back then that was why we had a split within the caucus, with a dozen or so of the longest serving Reform MPs leaving to sit with the PCs.

I vividly remember Harper preaching to us at meetings that if Reform allowed religion to interfere with its politics it would never win at the polls! Most of us agreed with him.

I think you are describing a caricature of the Liberal propaganda about Reformers that had little to do with what most Reformers were actually like!

I was one of the first members from Ontario. I served as a riding Director a couple of terms, attended meetings and rallies. I never saw any of these "social conservatives with a hidden agenda".

Maybe they were hiding behind trees, staying incognito! Or like Monty Python's "Upper Class Twits", trying not to be seen! If they were, they sure fooled me!

Edited March 20, 2010 by Wild Bill

[Wild Bill]

It tells me that, like the past two times they've prorogued parliament, they're willing to do ANYTHING to keep even the slightest grip on power; including throwing their ideology under the bus.

And of course, the Opposition parties have strong principles and will bring down the government rather than allow it to follow the wrong course, even if it cost them at the polls!

Some folks are making this contraception issue unnecessarily complicated. Ever hear of Occam's Razor? Perhaps someone involved in drafting Canada's position simply forgot?

Or let's assume that person WAS some kind of religious fundamentalist! They allowed their own bias to colour the stand they formulated for the whole nation! Once Harper and the other power brokers saw it they promptly corrected the situation. To make another Python reference: "The person responsible has been SACKED!"

To pretend that this is all evidence of a "hidden agenda" from the social conservatives "THAT REALLY RUN THAT PARTY" is just butt smoke! No one knows better than Harper that mixing religion with politics is disaster for any party in Canada. Lord knows he's been preaching that very point for over 20 years! Are people here suggesting that there's some kind of "fundamentalist underground" within the CPC that thinks they can "trick" Canada into becoming some kind of a fundamentalist Christian worker's Paradise? That Canadians would be so easily fooled?

I'm not exactly Harper's biggest fan either but for Pete's sake, let's keep it real here, people!

Edited March 20, 2010 by Wild Bill