Israel continues to spit in the face of international law

[charter.rights]

Israel does not have the right to pirate ships in international waters. Doing so makes them terrorists.

[williat]

Israel does not have the right to pirate ships in international waters. Doing so makes them terrorists.

Wouldn't piracy imply some form of bounty for these so called pirates. I mean keeping weapons away from people who have said "I want you to cease to exist" seems like a pretty reasonable thing to me. If you're implying that solely boarding the ship is an act of piracy then I would say you are very much wrong. If you are saying that taking any weapons off said ships constitutes the "bounty" then I suppose I could understand your argument a bit more (not that I would think it is right). But really your comment is just to try and piss people off...

Add something useful, don't add dumb ideas because other people do it.

[WIP]

Wouldn't piracy imply some form of bounty for these so called pirates. I mean keeping weapons away from people who have said "I want you to cease to exist" seems like a pretty reasonable thing to me.

Weapons! An IDF video of their weapons seizure displays knives, an axe, night vision goggles, an electric circular saw....yeah, everything you need to invade a country! I'm surprised so many people are falling for this bullshit. If they were really trying to smuggle real weapons in, they would have used one of the tunnels that Hamas has dug to bring in their supplies. They wouldn't be on ships that were certain to be boarded. The IDF's seizure of weapons looks like they raided the kitchen and some utility closets to come up with stuff that would look dangerous.

[bloodyminded]

Weapons! An IDF video of their weapons seizure displays knives, an axe, night vision goggles, an electric circular saw....yeah, everything you need to invade a country! I'm surprised so many people are falling for this bullshit. If they were really trying to smuggle real weapons in, they would have used one of the tunnels that Hamas has dug to bring in their supplies. They wouldn't be on ships that were certain to be boarded.

Exactly. Certain to be boarded. They predicted that they would be boarded.

And people are still claiming they were "trying to smuggle weapons to Hamas"?

I don't even know how to debate with such notions. One scarcely knows where to start...and, self-evidently, facts and elementary logic are not helpful.

Edited June 8, 2010 by bloodyminded

[jbg]

Exactly. Certain to be boarded. They predicted that they would be boarded.

And people are still claiming they were "trying to smuggle weapons to Hamas"?

******

I don't even know how to debate with such notions. One scarcely knows where to start...and, self-evidently, facts and elementary logic are not helpful.

Cracking a blockade (especially where Egypt was or is part of it) is not an exact science. The ability to get contraband into tunnel was likely fickle and uncertain so resupply would likely be attempted by both land (through tunnels) and sea.

[bloodyminded]

Cracking a blockade (especially where Egypt was or is part of it) is not an exact science. The ability to get contraband into tunnel was likely fickle and uncertain so resupply would likely be attempted by both land (through tunnels) and sea.

Yes, but not likely for a flotilla that was planned--openly, not secretly--for a year; a flotilla that Israel stated clearly it was going to intercept; a flotilla that stated unambiguously they expected to be boarded.

That's how we know they weren't carrying weapons for Hamas; and if we know it, then Israeli leaders knew it too. they're not more stupid than everyone else.

[WIP]

Cracking a blockade (especially where Egypt was or is part of it) is not an exact science. The ability to get contraband into tunnel was likely fickle and uncertain so resupply would likely be attempted by both land (through tunnels) and sea.

And the weapons put on display remind me of the "weapons of mass destruction" that were displayed after the Iraq Invasion....remember those pipes that were claimed to have been for building centrifuges?

The next question that needs to be asked is 'is the blockade legal?' You can't have your cake and eat it too! If Israel wants it's blockade of Gaza recognized as legal and legitimate, then have to answer whether or not the conflict with Hamas, that is used to legitimize the blockade, is an international conflict between two belligerent sovereigns? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belligerent

They don't seem to be interested in testing the rules of international law otherwise, likely because they don't want Gaza to have the rights of a belligerent state in an armed conflict. This seems to follow the pattern of undeclared wars, where international law and sanctions are only called upon by the dominant military power when it suits their wishes.

[WIP]

The real problem with Myata's approach is that there is absolutely no evidence that the Arabs want to accept any Israeli "genuine approachs to peace". Israel has little choice in view of hte murderous intentions of its enemies.

Right now I am more concerned about the direction Israel is going in, where they are building walls and new settlements to make it impossible for a future Israeli government to wind it back to a two state solution. The solution you offered on another thread to go back to the pre-1967 borders (except Jerusalem) may be impossible for two reasons: religious Muslims are never going to surrender control of the Al Aqsa Mosque and the former Muslim Quarter of the City; and that mess of settlements and walls is going to cost billions of dollars to remove. During Sharon's unilateral disengagement, they had enough problems just getting Israelis out of Gush Katif in Southern Gaza. The hardcore religious Zionists on the West Bank, are far more numerous, and are not going to leave, even for an ironclad peace treaty.

But, Netanyahu's backers appear to be playing a winner-take-all game here anyway, and if they lose, or the game gets even more costly, their allies lose as well. They are betting that Obama will not be re-elected, and a Republican, backed by their Christian Zionist "friends" will take power and continue to write blank cheques for whatever the Israeli government wants to do. If they have to go it alone, they're screwed! What are they going to do -- threaten to launch the nukes?

[bush_cheney2004]

....But, Netanyahu's backers appear to be playing a winner-take-all game here anyway, and if they lose, or the game gets even more costly, their allies lose as well. They are betting that Obama will not be re-elected, and a Republican, backed by their Christian Zionist "friends" will take power and continue to write blank cheques for whatever the Israeli government wants to do. If they have to go it alone, they're screwed! What are they going to do -- threaten to launch the nukes?

I have news for you....Israel will be supported no matter which party is in the driver's seat. US foreign policy is a wee bit more complicated and involved than your simple disdain for "Zionism" from Canada.

[WIP]

I have news for you....Israel will be supported no matter which party is in the driver's seat. US foreign policy is a wee bit more complicated and involved than your simple disdain for "Zionism" from Canada.

And what exactly are those complications?

[bush_cheney2004]

And what exactly are those complications?

What does it matter....they are American and Israeli concerns, not yours. Nope, you can sit comfortably in Canada and focus on the single issue of what those damn "Zionists" are doing (again).

[ToadBrother]

I have news for you....Israel will be supported no matter which party is in the driver's seat. US foreign policy is a wee bit more complicated and involved than your simple disdain for "Zionism" from Canada.

I'm a Canadian and I ain't no anti-Zionist. So far as I'm concerned, I wish Israel would just unilaterally declare the Palestinian Territories, even East Jerusalem, as the sovereign Palestinian state, and the minute the first rocket was launched into Israel afterwards, invade, conquer and start sending out boatloads of Palestinians to their good friends in Syria and Iran.

What the Palestinians would so find out is that the Syrians and Iranians could care less about them, and they've been nothing more than pawns in a proxy war between Damascus and Tehran on one side and the US on the other.

Edited June 9, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Oleg Bach]

It is truly amazing how this generation that inhabits Israel has forgotten the great sacrifice that was made by the world in the saving of their grand parents sorry butts. If it were not for the real Christians - Israel would not exist - all of the Jews would have disappeared if not for us - you would at least expect a bit of respect form this generation..apparently they forget us and only remember the holocaust - but not what stopped it..sure we came in late and there was anti-semite views held by some so called Christians...but in the long run - the Christians came through for them - NOW - they forget "lest we forget".

[ToadBrother]

It is truly amazing how this generation that inhabits Israel has forgotten the great sacrifice that was made by the world in the saving of their grand parents sorry butts. If it were not for the real Christians - Israel would not exist - all of the Jews would have disappeared if not for us - you would at least expect a bit of respect form this generation..apparently they forget us and only remember the holocaust - but not what stopped it..sure we came in late and there was anti-semite views held by some so called Christians...but in the long run - the Christians came through for them - NOW - they forget "lest we forget".

What sacrifice? Even after the Allies knew for positive that the Germans were sending millions of Jews to their deaths, there were no bombing runs of rail lines running to the camps.

Israel exists because of events pre-WWII. Yes, the Holocaust played a big part, but not in the way you're claiming.

[bloodyminded]

It is truly amazing how this generation that inhabits Israel has forgotten the great sacrifice that was made by the world in the saving of their grand parents sorry butts. If it were not for the real Christians - Israel would not exist - all of the Jews would have disappeared if not for us - you would at least expect a bit of respect form this generation..apparently they forget us and only remember the holocaust - but not what stopped it..sure we came in late and there was anti-semite views held by some so called Christians...but in the long run - the Christians came through for them - NOW - they forget "lest we forget".

Well, the war was not fought for the sake of liberating the Jews.

At any rate, it's hard for me to square the idea that the Jews owe anything, anything at all, to the Christians.

[jbg]

That's how we know they weren't carrying weapons for Hamas; and if we know it, then Israeli leaders knew it too. they're not more stupid than everyone else.

Why is Israel the only country that would be expected to tolerate even an open running of a blockade? Is it because some question whether Israel should be there at all?

[jbg]

I'm a Canadian and I ain't no anti-Zionist. So far as I'm concerned, I wish Israel would just unilaterally declare the Palestinian Territories, even East Jerusalem, as the sovereign Palestinian state, and the minute the first rocket was launched into Israel afterwards, invade, conquer and start sending out boatloads of Palestinians to their good friends in Syria and Iran.

What the Palestinians would so find out is that the Syrians and Iranians could care less about them, and they've been nothing more than pawns in a proxy war between Damascus and Tehran on one side and the US on the other.

Aside from the East Jerusalem inclusion, that's a corollary to my proposal (link).Good work!!!

Edited June 9, 2010 by jbg

[bloodyminded]

Why is Israel the only country that would be expected to tolerate even an open running of a blockade? Is it because some question whether Israel should be there at all?

A different issue from the one I was talking about.

I was responding to claims that the flotilla might have been carrying weapons for Hamas. But everyone knew beforehand that this wasn't so.

Incidentally, it would also be good if Israel would release all the confiscated footage...of which, apparently, there is quite a bit. They certainly can't claim it unavailable to the public for "security reasons."

[dre]

Aside from the East Jerusalem inclusion, that's a corollary to my proposal (link).Good work!!!

Your proposal was nothing more than a bias pretense for ethnic cleansing.

[Argus]

Of course, every nation, up to and including outright aggressors like the expansionist Soviet Union and Hitler's Germany--claimed self-defense.

Given the number of mortar, rocket and missiles lobbed across Israel's border, and the number of attacks and attempted attacks on it, I don't think anyone can credibly deny that the Israelis do need to take some actions to defend themselves.

That is still an argument of intent; but not of execution.

Have you ever watched documentaries on the progress of Canadians fighting the Germans through towns in Italy and Holland? Wow, there often wasn't much left of those towns by the time they were done. Artillery, air attacks, tanks blasting away at buildings, machinegun fire everywhere. Clearing houses by throwing grenades through the windows..

Fighting in a built-up area where civilians live is ALWAYS going to result in heavy civilian casualties. That's why it's always been Israel's policy (and that of everyone else) to fight, if possible, on the other guy's property so it's HIS civilians who die and not yours.

I don't see why they should be condemned for that.

[bloodyminded]

Given the number of mortar, rocket and missiles lobbed across Israel's border, and the number of attacks and attempted attacks on it, I don't think anyone can credibly deny that the Israelis do need to take some actions to defend themselves.

It was Israel who broke the ceasefire, after which the rocket attacks began again...after which Israel committed to Op. Cast Lead.

That's not defense. It's aggression.

Have you ever watched documentaries on the progress of Canadians fighting the Germans through towns in Italy and Holland? Wow, there often wasn't much left of those towns by the time they were done. Artillery, air attacks, tanks blasting away at buildings, machinegun fire everywhere. Clearing houses by throwing grenades through the windows..

That almost all of us (with the possible exception of lictor 616) agrees that there was a just war does not indicate--does not even faintly suggest--that everything we did was just and justifiable. Frankly, the claim itself borders on psychotic. At the very least, delusional, as is generally the case with adherence to doctrinal myths about our inherent goodness.

Fighting in a built-up area where civilians live is ALWAYS going to result in heavy civilian casualties. That's why it's always been Israel's policy (and that of everyone else) to fight, if possible, on the other guy's property so it's HIS civilians who die and not yours.

I don't see why they should be condemned for that.

Yes, but it has increasingly become unacceptable to kill civilians unnecessarily...and Israel itself (much like the US) has been flagrantly, promiscuously dishonest about its attempts to spare civilian lives.

If it's perfectly ok, why the need to lie about it?

Edited June 9, 2010 by bloodyminded

[jbg]

Aside from the East Jerusalem inclusion, that's a corollary to my proposal (link).Good work!!!

Your proposal was nothing more than a bias pretense for ethnic cleansing.

No. My intent was and is to give the Arabs a clear choice. War or peace. Not "War and Peace".

It was Israel who broke the ceasefire, after which the rocket attacks began again...after which Israel committed to Op. Cast Lead.

That's not defense. It's aggression.

After Israel no doubt received intelligence that Hamas was gearing up for attacks. Also what about their kidnapping of an Israeli?

That almost all of us (with the possible exception of lictor 616) agrees that there was a just war does not indicate--does not even faintly suggest--that everything we did was just and justifiable. Frankly, the claim itself borders on psychotic. At the very least, delusional, as is generally the case with adherence to doctrinal myths about our inherent goodness.

Given the casualty levels in a war such as WW II it is too much to ask the families of Canadian or other allied soldiers to risk their sons' lives to protect the lives of the enemy. So it is with Israel.

Yes, but it has increasingly become unacceptable to kill civilians unnecessarily...and Israel itself (much like the US) has been flagrantly, promiscuously dishonest about its attempts to spare civilian lives.

If it's perfectly ok, why the need to lie about it?

Are you saying that Israel is lying about the use, by Palestinians, of "fighters" out of uniform, of hiding out amid apartments, schools and hospitals, and the occasional fake funeral with a "live corpse"?

Edited June 10, 2010 by jbg

[naomiglover]

No. My intent was and is to give the Arabs a clear choice. War or peace. Not "War and Peace".

You mean justice will result in war and Israel's version of peace means undermining international law.

After Israel no doubt received intelligence that Hamas was gearing up for attacks. Also what about their kidnapping of an Israeli?

'No doubt'. You will type anything to fill your posts.

Are you saying that Israel is lying abotu the use, by Palestinians, of "fighters" out of uniform, of hiding out amid apartments, schools and hospitals, and the occasional fake funeral with a "live corpse"?

The IDF lies quite often. Many of their claims turned out to be untrue, after investigations by human rights organizations and Richard Goldstone.

For example, Israel accused Hamas of using civilians as human shield. It turned out that Israel used Palestinian civilians as human shields numerous times.

Are you okay with that, Mr. Radical Left lawyer?

[jbg]

Are you okay with that, Mr. Radical Left lawyer?

You're writing a novel.

What comes clear from your posts is that you will stop at nothing to dismiss Arab savagery and barbarism and to deny Israel any means to defend itself. Your posts are little but half-truths and outright lies.

The Goldstone Investigation was hardly neutral and balanced.

Edited June 10, 2010 by jbg

[naomiglover]

You're writing a novel.

What comes clear from your posts is that you will stop at nothing to dismiss Arab savagery and barbarism and to deny Israel any means to defend itself. Your posts are little but half-truths and outright lies.

Please cite examples of half-truths and outright lies. I will gladly cite your half-truths and outright lies.

The Goldstone Investigation was hardly neutral and balanced.

Show the whole world how the Goldstone report was not neutral and unbalanced.

Your contempt for international law is proof that you are not a lawyer.

And what is this "Radical Leftist". What do you even mean by that?