wyly Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 A report last spring by Deloitte Center for Health Solutions said 750,000 Americans travelled abroad for medical care in 2007, and forecast that number would rise to six million by 2010. That trend far outpaces the number of Canadians coming to the U.S. for medical treatment. The numbers at the bottom of the article (quoted above) are interesting, because it's not saying a much smaller percentage of Canadians leave for the US, as you stated; it says a much smaller number of Canadians leave for the US. With a population ten times that of Canada, the larger number of Americans could still very well be a smaller percentage than the percentage of Canadians who leave for the US. The fact that the article chose to use numbers instead of percentages, in spite of the large difference in population, makes me suspect that that likely is the case. so 2% of americans will leave the country to seek medical attention this year, compared to the latest Canadian figure of .1% Furthermore, it compares the number of Americans who "go abroad," not to Canada, but anywhere outside the U.S., while it only refers to Canadians who leave to go to the U.S., not anywhere else. few canadians go to the US because there is little need to, why would they go anywhere else? why would they pay for what is already paid for? why go to europe and pay for the same procedure that you can have here? they can get elective cosmetic procedures elsewhere but they can also get them here as well...americans have to pay a lot that is why they leave, Canadians do not that's why we don't... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Guest American Woman Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) so 2% of americans will leave the country to seek medical attention this year, compared to the latest Canadian figure of .1% 750,000 is .25% of 300,000,000. Not 2%. As for your .1% figure, I don't see any source backing that up, so even if it's true, I have no idea what year your "latest" Canadian figure is from. Without more information, your claim is merely your claim. few canadians go to the US because there is little need to, why would they go anywhere else? why would they pay for what is already paid for? Why not ask the Canadians who come here? why go to europe and pay for the same procedure that you can have here? From what I've read, it's to avoid the wait time. But you could ask those who do. they can get elective cosmetic procedures elsewhere but they can also get them here as well...americans have to pay a lot that is why they leave, Canadians do not that's why we don't... Again, I see nothing to back up your claim. Source, please. Edited March 10, 2010 by American Woman Quote
CrazeeEddie Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 750,000 is .25% of 300,000,000. Not 2%. As for your .1% figure, I don't see any source backing that up, so even if it's true, I have no idea what year your "latest" Canadian figure is from. Without more information, your claim is merely your claim. Why not ask the Canadians who come here? From what I've read, it's to avoid the wait time. But you could ask those who do. Again, I see nothing to back up your claim. Source, please. I believe the actual stat is .5%, of which less than 25% stated that this was the sole reason for their visit. This is from the Canadian National Population Health Survey, the last cycle of which was completed in 2007. CNPHS I am at work so I cannot get the actual document to work to let you know which page.... As for wait times, minor inconvenience compared to the costs involved if you ask me, but I don't have tons of extra money to throw around, as I am sure MANY Americans can relate to. I wonder how many Americans, if they could AFFORD to come to Canada, would choose to do so. Quote Nobody actually wants equality. It's just a word thrown around to achieve one's own superiority.
CrazeeEddie Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 I'd also like to point out that this is a ridiculous argument to be having as you cannot really compare the two situations based on 'who is crossing what border'. As we all know, the advantage of the US system is that anyone who can afford the treatment, can get it, regardless of citizenship, and I would venture to say are going to receive care and treatments befitting their monetary contributions. Of course Canadians with money will do so to avoid lines. The advantage of the Canadian system is that EVERYONE has access, regardless of income. The catch, of course, is that you must be a resident of Canada to qualify. What advantage would the average American have in coming here? They would still have to pay, right? Do you really think that the number of Americans crossing into Canada, if given the option of using our system (not just our services, but the SYSTEM) would not increase dramatically? Quote Nobody actually wants equality. It's just a word thrown around to achieve one's own superiority.
Shady Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 ....nevermind, don't feed the trolls. Translation: "I'm completely wrong, and have no answer for the points that have been stated." Quote
wyly Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 750,000 is .25% of 300,000,000. Not 2%. As for your .1% figure, I don't see any source backing that up, so even if it's true, I have no idea what year your "latest" Canadian figure is from. Without more information, your claim is merely your claim. from your post not mine, 6 million in 2010, that's about 2%.... .1% of Canadians seek care in the USA I don't see any link of yours disputing it... a simple google will find it for you but we all know you don't want to find it do you...Why not ask the Canadians who come here? why not ask the americans who have fraudulently come here in the past and those that still do... From what I've read, it's to avoid the wait time. But you could ask those who do. Again, I see nothing to back up your claim. Source, please. Again I see nothing to deny it, source, please.I call BS on the wait times, wait times are usually of Canadians own doing avoiding elective surgeries until the they can no longer bear the pain then expecting instant gratification...sorry want that hip replaced schedule it before you can no longer walk don't wait until you can't...even the wealthy don't throw away money on an elective procedure that they can get here already paid for... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
CrazeeEddie Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) Again I see nothing to deny it, source, please. I call BS on the wait times, wait times are usually of Canadians own doing avoiding elective surgeries until the they can no longer bear the pain then expecting instant gratification...sorry want that hip replaced schedule it before you can no longer walk don't wait until you can't...even the wealthy don't throw away money on an elective procedure that they can get here already paid for... Wait time issues are well documented in Canada, and even if not, perception is reality. Regardless, wait times (generally inconsequential) are a small price to pay for having the necessary treatments available to all. Edited March 10, 2010 by CrazeeEddie Quote Nobody actually wants equality. It's just a word thrown around to achieve one's own superiority.
wyly Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 As for wait times, minor inconvenience compared to the costs involved if you ask me, but I don't have tons of extra money to throw around, as I am sure MANY Americans can relate to. I wonder how many Americans, if they could AFFORD to come to Canada, would choose to do so. I never looked up the numbers but because it really doesn't matter to us but there is a heart clinic in T.O. that has a numerous american patients...these are people who have cash obviously...BC has some plans to open itself to medical tourism from the US and elsewhere which is raising some concern that foreign patients will divert resources from Canadians, and allowing cue jumping by foreigners with cash but not Canadians with cash...but if the figure of 6 million americans seeking medical help outside the US is accurate some will obviously come here but I suspect most will not as they will be paying large sums for treatment here, so countries like India and Brazil will still get their business... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Smallc Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Translation: "I'm completely wrong, and have no answer for the points that have been stated." My point was actually going to be directed at the number of immigrants that each of the two countries accept. Canada could not accept 240K Americans and still receive immigrants from other countries. 24K Canadian i a drop in the bucket in terms of both countries populations. About half as many Americans come to Canada every year, but again, that number is a drop in the bucket. The points that he was making had nothing to do with the issue at hand, as usual, and of course you would love it, because America interests you far more than your own country which you seem to know close to nothing about (for example, the fact that we are a Constitutional Monarchy...or the fact that many Canadian media sources reported the availability of the procedure that Danny Williams got was available here with excellent results that are in many cases superior to those south of the border. Canada's healthcare system has problems, as does Canada, but in comparison the United States of America has very little to brag about. Quote
wyly Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Wait time issues are well documented in Canada, and even if not, perception is reality. Regardless, wait times (generally inconsequential) are a small price to pay for having the necessary treatments available to all. I agree...I need a new knee now, my surgeon told me 3 years ago but I still haven't agreed to schedule a surgery date so it's my fault if I have to wait in discomfort...my knee is not a life and death issue, if it were something like my heart I move immediately to the head of the cue... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 My point was actually going to be directed at the number of immigrants that each of the two countries accept. Canada could not accept 240K Americans and still receive immigrants from other countries. 24K Canadian i a drop in the bucket in terms of both countries populations. About half as many Americans come to Canada every year, but again, that number is a drop in the bucket. ...so the "relative" population difference favors the Americans, despite your weak attempt to dismiss it as a "drop in the bucket". The points that he was making had nothing to do with the issue at hand, as usual, and of course you would love it, because America interests you far more than your own country.... Whereas you are on record as favoring the excess capacity of the US health care system whenever Canada's falls short. Canada's healthcare system has problems, as does Canada, but in comparison the United States of America has very little to brag about. The US system can brag about many things and often does. Canadians with cash brag with them. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Whereas you are on record as favoring the excess capacity of the US health care system whenever Canada's falls short. And is there a point burred in here somewhere? I have said that before and I continue to stick to it. It is simply smart monetary sense to use American facilities when it is geographic and cost practical. The US system can brag about many things and often does. Canadians with cash brag with them. Except of course for a massive outflow of people looking for care that's actually affordable. Canadians with cash can brag about a lot of things. They have the best of both worlds, where poor American's who don't qualify for Medicaid don't even have a choice. Keep bragging though. I'm sure it makes you feel good. Quote
CrazeeEddie Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 ...so the "relative" population difference favors the Americans, despite your weak attempt to dismiss it as a "drop in the bucket". Which as explained above has absolutely no relevance to the discussion of which is better, because the average 'American' cannot take advantage of the benefits of the Canadian system. One could argue they can't take advantage of the American one either. The US system can brag about many things and often does. Canadians with cash brag with them. What can the US system brag about exactly? That if you are rich you can live? The Canadian system has PLENTY to brag about, the main being that the MAJORITY of Canadians can take advantage of it. You're right, many with CASH can brag, unfortunately, in both nations, that MANY is in the MINORITY. And they call Liberals elitists Quote Nobody actually wants equality. It's just a word thrown around to achieve one's own superiority.
Shady Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 I agree...I need a new knee now, my surgeon told me 3 years ago but I still haven't agreed to schedule a surgery date so it's my fault if I have to wait in discomfort...my knee is not a life and death issue, if it were something like my heart I move immediately to the head of the cue... Or, you could buy private health insurance, and have the surgery right away, paid for. Quote
Smallc Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) Or, you could buy private health insurance, and have the surgery right away, paid for. Right away? Prove that. I can get a knee replacement with a median wait time of 16 weeks....that's all cases not accounting for people who are more severe. That's not bad at all. If every American suddenly had access to the entire US health system, what do you think would happen to wait times? If everyone was suddenly triaged based on the problem that they have rather than the money or insurance that they have, what do you think would happen to wait times? Some would stay better, certainly, because they have just a tick more doctors and more diagnostic equipment, but you can bet that wait times would rise. The poor and underinsured in the US are used to keep wait times artificially low. The reality is, the US has the least efficient system in the world. Ours needs to improve, but that is in no way our model. BTW, you can buy wait time insurance in Canada. Edited March 10, 2010 by Smallc Quote
wyly Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Or, you could buy private health insurance, and have the surgery right away, paid for. how much of an idiot would you be to pay for private insurance on top of the taxes you pay for public insurance...there's a reason wealthy people are wealthy, they're smart with their money... of all the wealthy people I know none have gone to the US for private care it's a stupid waste of money... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 Right away? Prove that. I can get a knee replacement with a median wait time of 16 weeks....that's all cases not accounting for people who are more severe. That's not bad at all. that's correct and that the US doesn't have wait times as well is a myth, plus if you have no cash you can wait forever...If every American suddenly had access to the entire US health system, what do you think would happen to wait times? If everyone was suddenly triaged based on the problem that they have rather than the money or insurance that they have, what do you think would happen to wait times? Some would stay better, certainly, because they have just a tick more doctors and more diagnostic equipment, but you can bet that wait times would rise. The poor and underinsured in the US are used to keep wait times artificially low.they have the same MD shortage we do add the estimated 45 million with no healthcare to their system and we'll see how cope with that... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Shady Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 how much of an idiot would you be to pay for private insurance on top of the taxes you pay for public insurance Exactly. That's why there should be a choice. Quote
Shady Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 that's correct and that the US doesn't have wait times as well is a myth, plus if you have no cash you can wait forever... That's completely false. In the US, if somebody shows up at an emergency room, by law, they're entitled to treatment, whether they can pay for it or not. Quote
Smallc Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 That's completely false. In the US, if somebody shows up at an emergency room, by law, they're entitled to treatment, whether they can pay for it or not. And what if they have, say, lung cancer? What happens to them once they're stabilized? Quote
Smallc Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 they have the same MD shortage we do add the estimated 45 million with no healthcare to their system and we'll see how cope with that... That's right, they have a slightly higher doctor to population percentage. The problem is, from info I've seen (I don't remember where, so I can't find it now) the number in Canada is getting better...the number in the US is getting worse. From what I've seen, the US has a bigger shortage of normal family doctors, whereas we have a bigger shortage of specialists, especially in some fields. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 And is there a point burred in here somewhere? I have said that before and I continue to stick to it. It is simply smart monetary sense to use American facilities when it is geographic and cost practical. So you "support" the existing US system in its present form. Except of course for a massive outflow of people looking for care that's actually affordable. Canadians with cash can brag about a lot of things. They have the best of both worlds, where poor American's who don't qualify for Medicaid don't even have a choice. Keep bragging though. I'm sure it makes you feel good. Wrong...even "poor" Candians benefit, as provinces continue to let contracts for services in evil America. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 And what if they have, say, lung cancer? What happens to them once they're stabilized? I don't know. But I'm not advocating for an American style system. However, if I want to purchase private health insurance, and get treatment at private clinics, I think I should have that choice. But my response was to the accusation that one could wait forever if they don't have the money. That's not true. If you go to the hospital, and require some type of surgery right away, you get it. Whether you can pay or not. Which is one of the reasons for rising premiums in the US. I'm just stating a fact. Quote
Smallc Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 So you "support" the existing US system in its present form. Sure, it doesn't hurt me. I was rather partial to the public option, but alas, that isn't going to happen now it seems. Wrong...even "poor" Candians benefit, as provinces continue to let contracts for services in evil America. Again, I'm sure there's a point in here somewhere...but I can't find it anywhere. Quote
Smallc Posted March 10, 2010 Report Posted March 10, 2010 I don't know. But I'm not advocating for an American style system. However, if I want to purchase private health insurance, and get treatment at private clinics, I think I should have that choice. And you're in the majority. You can purchase insurance so you don't have to wait too long. I'm not sure what would be so great about getting treatedi na private facility rather than a not for profit hospital. But my response was to the accusation that one could wait forever if they don't have the money. That's not true. If you go to the hospital, and require some type of surgery right away, you get it. Whether you can pay or not. Which is one of the reasons for rising premiums in the US. I'm just stating a fact. That's certainly not an idea situation. I can get the same service here, and one one will send me a bill after. Quote
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