Feds spending cuts

[Smallc]

What I do know is that government workers think they should be immune to economic downturns, which people who pay their salaries have to deal with. What's fair about that?

I don't think that the government firing people during the beginnings of a recovery is a good idea. In a year from now, maybe, but not now. Government should always be looking for efficiencies. If they can provide services with fewer people, all the better...but that can wait another year.

Still, that was an odd comment about going to the UK if you want a Monarchy considering that this IS a Constitutional Monarchy.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Smallc

[DrGreenthumb]

Harper needs to pay for all the "action plan" campaign ads somehow.

[Oleg Bach]

Do it Harper and even I might close my eyes and vote Liberal just too screw your government as much as you have screwed the people.

The big conservative dogs wanted the liberals out of federal office..On the provincial level liberal governments are actually conservative- Mcginty is a prime example of being a lacky for the banks..WHEN socialism kicks in there is always a group that grow rich through it..it is kind of like a huge merger and provinces become companies completely under corporate control. You must understand that socialism is always used as the last stepping stone to ultimate power. The average person becomes more average and the tycoon becomes even a greater master.

[Michael Hardner]

That's about how I feel Shady. The job security, benefits and pension of federal civil servants are generally far beyond that which similarly qualified people get in the private sector. I'll vote for anyone who's looking to cut expenses and deal tough with those people.

That's all well and good, but aren't we talking about breaking contracts here ?

[Michael Hardner]

I'm REALLY hoping that someone in the media who does the interview with the minister will ask what is the members of Parliament going to give up too, since HE said EVERYONE has to give up something for the better of the country. Didn't they give themselves a raise a couple years ago. Maybe take away the 13 FREE airline trips for them and their families, free meals, cars etc. I bet they will get their money back on the Olympic tickets!

Not the Reform party. They successfully gave up all of their pensions and didn't take a cent ! Then they became the Conservatives and continued that traditional of dutiful prudence ! And of course, the Liberals couldn't be bested, so they too signed on and refused all pensions and perks. Shortly after, the NDP and Bloc felt shame and gave up all of their pensions, retroactively.

Yes, it's all true. It happened just like that. And we have Prime Minister Preston Manning and his brilliant finance minister Stockwell Day to thank for it.

Ok, I'll stop now.

[EyesWideOpen]

WOW, can you ever feel the love for the public service employees here....But i wonder just who in the public service will be effected....well good question, our military, RCMP, coast gaurd, CSIS,pretty much our entire security appartus....not to mention all those other public servents we all love to hate...

Well i can honestly say that after 30 years service to my country, i will not be eating Cat food as a main meal...nor will i be eating steak tar tar or cavier either....I'd like to think that during my service i gave alot more than i received... ask anyone already on a military service pension, and they are probably still working, suplimenting it with another wage....I'm not complaining just stating that nobody ever got rich working for the public service....atleast not down in the trenches, like most of us...

perhaps we should all take some time and suck back and reload, the Public services pension fund was raped already from 1999 until 2006 for a total of 29.18 bil dollars....where did that money go ? well it funded most of debt repayment....And while the liberals will lay claim to the deficit reduction, really it was thier idea, but public service funds...as far as i know most Canadians approved of this adventure, but like the liberals really failed to give credit were credit was do....yes those damn public service employees we love to hate....How much of your pension went into debt repayment ?

And while we all love to say we pay your wages, though our taxes...yes you do...thank you, but lets also not forget we pay the same taxes as you do, we wait in those same line ups as you do, only add to the list we pay the national debt down as well....

What remains of this pension plan is just over 12.97 bil dollars held in limbo, as the public service had to change thier pension plan so it would not get robbed once again....Lets not forget that each employee pays into that plan as well, most of it is employee monies, I think we would all agree that the government paid portion, or as some have put it "tax payers" portion has been recovered....by the liberals...

The new pension plan is still a governmental plan invested in the markets, for what purpose i ask SO that goverment can dip into when they want....to create a larger surplus, in a shorter time space...why even have a pension fund why not call it the deficit plan....and pay our retired public service members straight out of the yearly budget...man we could really pay that down in quick time...

I guess to sum up, we should'nt be screwing with anyones pension plan...even the public services plan...

exactly the point I was making about the pension surplus being used last time

I ask also, how many private pension plan members get their CPP clawed back? Part and parcel of a fed. gvmt. employees pension...but we don't pay reduced CPP contributions - even tho it's a given our CPP will be clawed back!

And this BS about being able to retire at 55? IF, and that's a big IF, you can....this is the last 'cycle' that can do so, as we were employed coming out of high school ...the kids joining the PS today won't be able to retire at 55- they won't have the required 35 years service by then.

Half the information makes for an uninformed opinion, folks.

Ask yourself this..if you had payed into a system for 25-30 years, know your CPP is going to be reduced and now you're told your pension is in jeopardy? Would you be mad as hell? Damn right you would be.

And is it right? No, it's not. And no one can convince me otherwise

Edited February 18, 2010 by EyesWideOpen

[JBoyd]

exactly the point I was making about the pension surplus being used last time

I ask also, how many private pension plan members get their CPP clawed back? Part and parcel of a fed. gvmt. employees pension...but we don't pay reduced CPP contributions - even tho it's a given our CPP will be clawed back!

And this BS about being able to retire at 55? IF, and that's a big IF, you can....this is the last 'cycle' that can do so, as we were employed coming out of high school ...the kids joining the PS today won't be able to retire at 55- they won't have the required 35 years service by then.

Half the information makes for an uninformed opinion, folks.

Ask yourself this..if you had payed into a system for 25-30 years, know your CPP is going to be reduced and now you're told your pension is in jeopardy? Would you be mad as hell? Damn right you would be.

And is it right? No, it's not. And no one can convince me otherwise

There is no such thing as a CPP clawback. You can achieve the maximum payout. I'm afraid you are probably refering to the Old Age Security and Guaranteed Income Supplement for low income retirees. These are not entitlements and you don't pay into them. They are supplements to ensure that the elderly can afford to survive.

[Argus]

it would be helpful to gain the perspective of any active MLW members who currently work for the federal government - ideally, a prolific MLW member, one who is a most loyal advocate (lapdog) for the Harper Conservatives. Anyone... anyone...

Funny, I would have said it would be helpful to gain an intelligent perspective or at least opinion.

I won't be calling on you for one.

[Argus]

Excellent point. We could ask the Nortel workers if they think it's fair that swivel servants get a pass...

Nortel went bankrupt and their pensions are endangered.... so, help me out with the logic here. Because of that everyone's pension ought to be pulled back? No? Just the public servants? Because.... because they were responsible? Give me some insight into the logic here, unless it's just the logic of resentment.

[Argus]

Yeah...there will be lots of votes lost as the working electorate worry about revenue Caanada employees....

There are about half a million people who work for the federal government, most of whom have families.

Most of them are not young, are middle class and thus, most of them vote, so their ultimate numbers would be of disproportionate strength.

[Argus]

Don't do it, he was really counting on your vote.

No problem with trimming the public service, it has been growing rapidly for no particular reason. Time for a purge.

The public service grows in tandem with the desire of the public for big brother to take care of any and every single problem in their lives, to regulate everything, to monitor everything, and to protect them from everything, be it detergent or rudeness. It grows because government sets up new programs but doesn't get rid of old ones. What, you think nobody has to administer the GST? You think when they bring in something like tax free savings accounts CRA doesn't have to put together a team to administer it?

[Argus]

So am I, but we aren't talking about the working man, we are talking about Cival Servants..

You are a walking cliche on this one, full of knee-jerk responses with no clue.

But I'm sure my friend, who has put in about 10-20 hrs of unpaid overtime a week for the last few months at the RCMP would appreciate your gratitude for her hard work. Or my other friend, who, despite a continuing sickness forces herself to work, even if it is from home, because of important deadlines, is happy to know you appreciate her hard work. I'm sure my other friend, who works for Public Works, who came in and worked straight through a weekend, 14 hrs a day, to complete some work so a move of offices could be completed on time and people could get to work Monday morning knows you are pleased with him.

[Argus]

Nope. A business allowed to keep MORE OF IT'S OWN MONEY has nothing to do with government workers being immune to tough financial times. In most cases, these evil Corporations have already had their profits shrink, they've already had to cut jobs, or lower salaries, or lower benefits. It's the public employees that try to hide themselves from the economic woes that the people who pay their salaries have to deal with on a regular basis.

When a business lays people off, genius, it does so by cutting a variety of programs. Ie, the work generally doesn't get done any more.

So which programs do you wish the government to no longer administer? I'm guessing - not the ones which benefit you or anyone you care about.

[EyesWideOpen]

There is no such thing as a CPP clawback. You can achieve the maximum payout. I'm afraid you are probably refering to the Old Age Security and Guaranteed Income Supplement for low income retirees. These are not entitlements and you don't pay into them. They are supplements to ensure that the elderly can afford to survive.

right you are and that was poorly worded...what I meant was the pension is clawbacked to even it out with the CPP...so basically, once we collect CPP at age 65 our pension is reduced-not your CPP as I stated erroneously.

Edited February 18, 2010 by EyesWideOpen

[Army Guy]

What I do know is that government workers think they should be immune to economic downturns, which people who pay their salaries have to deal with. What's fair about that?

I'd be curious to know exactly what immune status PS employees have...Lets just talk about the military for a second, Not that many years ago even the military was told to trim down personal, anyone with any military experience can tell you of the old FRP program, where thousands of military personal where either asked or forced out of the military...even today with manpoower restrictions at it's peak, there is no monies to fill vacant civilian PS jobs, and many reserves have been told they're contracts are being looked at, with alot not being renewed or being canceled...

I'm sure that this is the story across the entire government....

As for PS jobs take a look at the most common ones, they are making any where in the neibourhood of 23 k to 36 k annually....and while yes there is jobs in the PS that pay more they are not common or entry level...so not many are getting rich of our tax dollars....

As far as i know every Canadian citizen is entiltled to apply for a PS job, meaning even you could apply and become one of those we love to hate...

[Argus]

That's about how I feel Shady. The job security, benefits and pension of federal civil servants are generally far beyond that which similarly qualified people get in the private sector. I'll vote for anyone who's looking to cut expenses and deal tough with those people.

I've already posted this in another thread, but since this one seems to have an abundance of people making idiotic statements without the slightest knowledge base, I'll state it again.

The salary/benefit package for lower level public servants IS indeed higher than one would find in most of the private sector. Althought, the government is a LARGE organization, and most LARGE organizations pay their people a generally higher salary than mom and pop operations. Still, the pay rates are better for lower level public servants.

However, the higher up the ladder you go in the public service, the smaller that gap becomes, and once you reach management rank you're probably earning less than your private sector counterparts. An example I gave was of a DG (director general) who has a budget of a couple of hundred million, several hundred employees, and who administers to national programs which process billions worth of goods and services. His pay rate tops out at about $150k. In a large, private sector organization he'd easily be earning many times that. A director, one rank down, might manage 50-100 employees, with a budget of millions, and again, administering to national programs which process billions in payments. Think of the people who administer to the GST cheques, for example, or pensions. These are weighty responsibilties, and screwups are unacceptable. His pay rate would top out at about $120k. Again, in the private sector he'd be earning much more.

Even mid-range civil servants earning maybe $60-$70k often have skills and knowledge which would earn them at the very least, similar, and in many cases a lot higher wages in the private sector. CRA has a lot of tax experts in this category, for example.

The benefits package is nice but the cliche that it's "gold plated" is so much bullshit. For example, the medical package has pretty severe limits. The limit for eyeglasses, for example, is $200 - once every two years. And yes, 80% of prescription drug prices are refunded - but if you work for Wal-Mart, you don't even have to lay out that 80% to begin with. You just pay the 20%. Other employers have simliar systems.

[Argus]

What remains of this pension plan is just over 12.97 bil dollars held in limbo, as the public service had to change thier pension plan so it would not get robbed once again....Lets not forget that each employee pays into that plan as well, most of it is employee monies, I think we would all agree that the government paid portion, or as some have put it "tax payers" portion has been recovered....by the liberals......

As far as I'm aware, the government never made any contributions to the pension plan prior to 2000. It simply paid pensions out of general revenues. Therefore, all the money it took from the pension plan had been contributed by public servants.

[Argus]

I don't think that the government firing people during the beginnings of a recovery is a good idea. In a year from now, maybe, but not now. Government should always be looking for efficiencies. If they can provide services with fewer people, all the better...but that can wait another year.

The government has no need to fire anyone. The rate of retirements and others simply leaving the public service means the government could easily downsize by simply imposing a hiring freeze.

However, while it is true the government can provide services with fewer people, they can't do so under the current systems of monitoring and controling which have grown into something like a fetish over the past dozen or so years. Let me suggest an allegory.

When I started working if an employee needed a new computer monitor I'd take a cab to Best Buy up the street and buy one, using my government purchasing card, then plug it in for him and it'd be up and running in an hour or two.

The policy in place now, is that a number of forms have to be filled out and approved by IT. IT will then contact Branch Purchasing who will run up a requisition on the SAP system. This requisition will be sent back to the office responsible in order to be approved, then returned, so that Branch Purchasing can do up a Purchase Order. The Agency now has "deals" in place with two major computer sales organizations. One is Dell for laptops, the other Compugen, for desktops. We aren't allowed to go elsewhere. So the Branch will submit its purchase order to Compugen. A month or so later, the monitor will arrive at the central IT shop. It will be unboxed, examined, and then reboxed and sent to the local IT shop. There it will be unboxed, warranty information scanned and recorded, and the unit examined again before a schedule is set up for it to be installed. The invoice will then be sent to the local office to be processed and approved, then a request for payment sent up to Corporate Finance. CF will examine all the paperwork and computer entries, then approve, and submit a request to PWGSC to print and send a cheque to Compugen.

Generally speaking this takes about six to eight weeks. Oh, and the kicker is that the actual price we pay for the monitor is about twice what you would pay at Best Buy. The price for all the people's time involved in making the purchase - unknown. However, the Agency at one time calculated that the administration fee of creating a purchase order was about $180

Okay, so how do you improve effiency? Most of the idiots posting thus far, would fire some of the workers who process the requests for monitors. But in reality, the only path to efficiency is to reform the systems, cut back the red tape which requires we employ so many extra workers to do a given job. But those systems are put in place by management which is TERRIFIED of being caught doing anything wrong. I kid you not. Every senior manager spends most of his or her time and efforts ensuring that if anything goes wrong, they can't be blamed. Efficiency is a very, very poor second in importance. So if more forms, and more micromanagement and extreme oversight will increase the coverage for their asses, then so be it. You need to change the management culture.

[EyesWideOpen]

But we know there are no rewards for efficiency are there?

Just look at purchasing starting about….oh, mid February. Make sure you've spent all your budget….Lord knows if it will be there when actually need it, if you don't.

[Argus]

That's all well and good, but aren't we talking about breaking contracts here ?

The tories broke the contract they signed with our union during their previous budget, which included rolling back already signed and agreed upon wages. That is why the union is sueing them. The goverment did this even though precedent says that they will be overruled by the courts and they will have wasted a lot of legal money and time just so they could throw a bone to people like those posting on this topic.

[Argus]

There is no such thing as a CPP clawback. You can achieve the maximum payout.

Here's a little known part of the public service "gold plated" pension program.

First, you pay into your government pension, but you also pay into CPP just like all other Canadians - at the full rate.

Now retirement arrives. Let's pull numbers out of the air. Your government pension should be $3000 a month. Your CPP pension should be $1100 a month. What the government will do at age 65 is to deduct the CPP from your civil service pension. Your civil service pension will now be $1900 a month, and then you'll get the CPP of $1100 a month on top of that. Your total pension, in other words, will be whatever your civil service pension should be. You do not get one cent from the CPP even though you have been paying into it for almost fifty years.

[Argus]

But we know there are no rewards for efficiency are there?

Just look at purchasing starting about….oh, mid February. Make sure you've spent all your budget….Lord knows if it will be there when actually need it, if you don't.

Friend of mine, in management, was informed by her director, that he was informed from higher ups, that any money left in the budget at year end will be deducted from next year's budget - so they better spend it before fiscal year end.

You don't like ths system, blame the bigshots, not the little folk.

[Army Guy]

Your right it's not a CPP claw back but a pension claw back.

My linkwww.rcmpvetsnb.ca/

[Army Guy]

Friend of mine, in management, was informed by her director, that he was informed from higher ups, that any money left in the budget at year end will be deducted from next year's budget - so they better spend it before fiscal year end.

You don't like ths system, blame the bigshots, not the little folk.

This is common practice in the Military, spending for the sake of spending and it needs to stop...

[EyesWideOpen]

This is common practice in the Military, spending for the sake of spending and it needs to stop...

I've been employed by various federal dept's for over 20 years and in my experience it's common practice everywhere.