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Anyone remember how many times Chretien prorogued Parliament?


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Maybe among the agit crowd. haven't heard a word from people I know, who tend to be older and middle class, with a lot more of concern to them than whether the MPs take three months off instead of two.

I dunno, I've not been that impressed with Harper. Perogies or not, he hasn't been that good a match for my values.

'Course, I still have no choice but to vote for him! I won't feel proud after casting my ballot but frankly, if I voted for any of the other choices I'd probably upchuck right into the ballot box!

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By "folks" you mean "people who would rather slit their wrists than vote for Harper". yes, I'm sure they were aghast at almost anything Harper might do, from shaving to tying his shoes.

Perhaps those "folks" would but this "folk" has never voted NDP in his life and only voted Liberal once at the height of Trudeamania when he didn't know any better. Partisanship has no part in my feelings other than one of disappointment. If I had to vote today, the most the Conservatives could expect from me is a spoiled ballot.

Maybe among the agit crowd. haven't heard a word from people I know, who tend to be older and middle class, with a lot more of concern to them than whether the MPs take three months off instead of two.

It's not about them taking an extra month off, it's about him crap canning the work of nearly a whole session of Parliament. When is that going to sink in?

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So when the Tories go around declaring the Opposition is essentially a coup, and all other sorts of inaccurate B.S. clearly designed to manipulate voters, that's bad, but the Opposition saying "Hey, you know what, he's shutting down Parliament to shut up committees", that's evil.

I think most voters were sufficiently horrified at the prospect of Stephan Dion as Prime minister, with Layton and Bouchard at his elbows, that the Tories' complaints were largely unneded. As for why Harper is shutting down parliament. Everyone knows that's because of the Senate as the "poor tortured Taliban" issue was having ZERO impact with voters.

This is why I hate partisans.

You ARE a partisan, so partisan you're apparently still enraged by something Harper did more than a year ago. I suppose come next January you'll be hopping mad when you learn he prorogued parliament THIS year too!

I've said many times I'm no fan of Harper. The only reason I vote tory is the alterantives are worse. The Liberals and NDP have been striving desperately to find something they can use to convince people to vote for them - other than policies, ideas and charismatic candidates, none of which they have - and have been throwing all sorts of phony issues up month after month desperately hoping something will stick.

I'm still waiting for a reason to vote for anyone but the Conservatives. The fact Harper prorogued parliament, just like every other premier and prime minister has done in the past and will in the future, is not such a reason.

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It's not about them taking an extra month off, it's about him crap canning the work of nearly a whole session of Parliament. When is that going to sink in?

I supported many of those bills, but I'm not terrily concerned. Clearly, the calculation ws that they could get them through faster by redoing the Senate committes and then reintroducing the bills in the next session.

As I've said before, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the opposition, who have already voted to approve a given bill, say, and already said their speeches, and already examined it in committee, are going to now demand the bill be re-examined and re-voted on and go through the whole process from the start? That would leave them pretty far open to the accusation they're simply wasting the House's time for partisan political purposes, a House they have been swearing up and down is so dreadfully important.

The consumer bill, for example, which was unanimously approved by all parties and then tossed back by the Senate - do you think the opposition is going to demand it start over and go through committee hearings and call witnesse etc. all over again?

Virtually all these bills will sail through the readings and committees to the place they had reached prior to the adjournment of parliament, so very little time will actually be wasted. And that wasted time will, the Tories calculate, be made up by there NOT being a huge roadblock in the Senate to slow them down after they leave the House.

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Perhaps those "folks" would but this "folk" has never voted NDP in his life and only voted Liberal once at the height of Trudeamania when he didn't know any better. Partisanship has no part in my feelings other than one of disappointment. If I had to vote today, the most the Conservatives could expect from me is a spoiled ballot.

Well, I've never been Harper's biggest fan. Still, one hoped at the end of the day that, considering how he campaigned as the honorable and honest choice after all the misdeeds of the Chretien years, his defense of some of his actions wouldn't amount to "I'm no worse than the guys before me."

It strikes that this is a turning point for the Tories, in particular the Reform rump. They have literally been dumped. Any notion of MPs being more receptive to their constituents, of government being more accountable, of actions being honorable and in the best interests of the nation have been lost. It's now about finding the previous government's lowest common denominator and going down from there.

It's not about them taking an extra month off, it's about him crap canning the work of nearly a whole session of Parliament. When is that going to sink in?

Well, that's part of it. The other part of it is this idea that Parliament simply exists as a tool for some sort of small governing elite. Harper didn't invent that, it's been around since Trudeau's time, when he and a small cabal of the "important" members of Cabinet basically viewed the government MPs as willing sheep, and the rest of Parliament as deliberate obstacles. It's been downhill ever since, and now shutting down Parliament to close out committee work that might prove embarrassing and so he can stack the Senate (Senate reform is dead with a stake through its heart now), well, it's the new low.

What makes me saddest is that I trust none of the other parties one whit more. I'm hoping we have a good independent or two in my riding when the next election is called so I can give a big "f-you" to the mainline parties, their simpering supporters and this whole notion that our Parliament's sole purpose is to be the tether ball in the political elites brinksmanship.

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I dunno, I've not been that impressed with Harper. Perogies or not, he hasn't been that good a match for my values.

'Course, I still have no choice but to vote for him! I won't feel proud after casting my ballot but frankly, if I voted for any of the other choices I'd probably upchuck right into the ballot box!

Yeah, I'm pretty much the same. I do cut him some slack because he's only got a minority, and an unsettled minority at that, along with a hostile press, and really bad economic times. But i was definitely not happy about some of the things he's done, especially his attempt to buy votes in Quebec - with billions of dollars of our money. I didn't like the GST cut either. I can think of better ways to cut taxes. But as you say, who else are we going to vote for?

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I supported many of those bills, but I'm not terrily concerned. Clearly, the calculation ws that they could get them through faster by redoing the Senate committes and then reintroducing the bills in the next session.

As I've said before, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think the opposition, who have already voted to approve a given bill, say, and already said their speeches, and already examined it in committee, are going to now demand the bill be re-examined and re-voted on and go through the whole process from the start? That would leave them pretty far open to the accusation they're simply wasting the House's time for partisan political purposes, a House they have been swearing up and down is so dreadfully important.

The consumer bill, for example, which was unanimously approved by all parties and then tossed back by the Senate - do you think the opposition is going to demand it start over and go through committee hearings and call witnesse etc. all over again?

Virtually all these bills will sail through the readings and committees to the place they had reached prior to the adjournment of parliament, so very little time will actually be wasted. And that wasted time will, the Tories calculate, be made up by there NOT being a huge roadblock in the Senate to slow them down after they leave the House.

I think it will depend on how badly Harper has wounded himself and how aggressive the opposition feels. You should be concerned because if he has miscalculated badly enough, he might not be PM much longer and you can forget about all of those bills. Remember, it was Harpers action which flushed all the bills so it will hard for anyone to point a finger at the opposition for wasting Parliaments time.

As far as the Senate goes, if we can't make it accountable it is long past time we dumped it. Instead of letting the Senate continue to make itself look bad, he has hung his own backside out to dry. Bad move.

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You ARE a partisan, so partisan you're apparently still enraged by something Harper did more than a year ago. I suppose come next January you'll be hopping mad when you learn he prorogued parliament THIS year too!

You may say you're no fan of Harper, yet you do so while loading ToadBrother's words with an imaginary anti-Harper partisanship that you then turn into a target for your hate. TB's point, though, isn't that Harper alone is evil for proroguing parliament (as much of the rabid Left has been trying to do), but that all prime ministers since Trudeau have been toying dangerously with the institution, already weakened as it has been by internal party policies. Harper's just the latest; the only difference, perhaps, being that he's been the most openly brazen about his contempt for the House since Trudeau.

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Edited by g_bambino
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I think it will depend on how badly Harper has wounded himself and how aggressive the opposition feels. You should be concerned because if he has miscalculated badly enough, he might not be PM much longer and you can forget about all of those bills. Remember, it was Harpers action which flushed all the bills so it will hard for anyone to point a finger at the opposition for wasting Parliaments time.

He's wounded, but I'm not sure he's out. Everyone thought (even a lot of Tories, though few publicly wanted to say so) that Harper was cooked after the 2008 prorogation, and for the first few months of last year's session, he seemed to be dangling at the end of the string while the Opposition played puppeteer. But Iggy miscalculated (or, more to the point, seemed to aim the cannon in the wrong direction), any chance of a coalition died, and Harper not only recovered, but by the fall was within spitting distance of a majority government.

From a purely political perspective, Harper's chief problem is that he is reckless. He's got balls, he's a more than competent strategist, and there's no denying his skills as a political manager (I mean, he resurrected the Conservative Party from oblivion, a feat that on its own will earn him a page or two in the history of our nation). He's smart as hell, but then goes out and does dumb-ass things (like threatening taxpayer money to parties) and this latest prorogation, which could have had only limited benefits politically (and seemed more likely to see MacKay crash and burn than Harper, anyways). He's always tempting fate. Too much caution is a bad thing, to be sure, but a complete lack of it can look positively suicidal, and losing a 14-15 point lead over your nearest opposition party in the space of four months, there's just no way to spin that that doesn't make him look bad.

As far as the Senate goes, if we can't make it accountable it is long past time we dumped it. Instead of letting the Senate continue to make itself look bad, he has hung his own backside out to dry. Bad move.

It's questionable if we could even produce legislation to limit prorogation (I'm still certain that that is unconstitutional), so Senate reform in any meaningful sense is not only dead, it's a stinking rotting corpse. No one is going to go there, not for years to come.

Edited by ToadBrother
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I loathe Lawrence Martin and his smug republicanism, but, in this case, he sums up the present pretty well:

Here was Paul Martin speaking in 2002 about the erosion of Canadian democracy: "We have allowed power to become too centralized – too concentrated in the hands of a few and too remote from the influence of many. We have permitted a culture to arise that has been 30 years in the making." In Ottawa, he lamented, power came down to one question - "Who do you know in the PMO?"

Of the 30 years that Mr. Martin talked about in his lament, Liberals were in power for 20, Conservatives just 10. The expansion of prime ministerial power began under Pierre Trudeau before being expanded under Brian Mulroney and then Jean Chrétien.

When there is no opposition across the aisle, autocracy takes the place of democracy.

[+]

Edited by g_bambino
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You want me to name names?!??! LOL

I live in Ottawa and it's a pretty hot topic here, I can tell you

I work in Ottawa and it's a non issue for the most part.It depends on what type of crowd you hang with.Public servants would be up in arms,while most average Joe's like me aren't too upset by this.As a private sector employee,I can't just leave whenever I feel like it to go out and protest,unlike government.

This still pales in comparison to the rather large corruption scandal that engulfed the Liberals.Remember the paper shredders running night and day by Chretien's gang?

Fact is this would not be an issue if it were the Liberals doing it.Elsewhere in here you can read up on Bob Rae proroguing three times during his reign of errors as Premier of Ontario.

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I work in Ottawa and it's a non issue for the most part.It depends on what type of crowd you hang with.Public servants would be up in arms,while most average Joe's like me aren't too upset by this.As a private sector employee,I can't just leave whenever I feel like it to go out and protest,unlike government.

As much as I'm sure your doing a bit of wish fulfillment, your attempt to equate personal anecdotal evidence with general electoral sentiment, seems at best, moronic, and at worst, a rather slimy bit of misdirection. The polls are clear, people don't like the prorogation.

This still pales in comparison to the rather large corruption scandal that engulfed the Liberals.Remember the paper shredders running night and day by Chretien's gang?

Fact is this would not be an issue if it were the Liberals doing it.Elsewhere in here you can read up on Bob Rae proroguing three times during his reign of errors as Premier of Ontario.

Yes, leaders abuse their powers. I wasn't aware that the Tories now governed under the principle "As bad as the other guy."

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As much as I'm sure your doing a bit of wish fulfillment, your attempt to equate personal anecdotal evidence with general electoral sentiment, seems at best, moronic, and at worst, a rather slimy bit of misdirection. The polls are clear, people don't like the prorogation.

Yes, leaders abuse their powers. I wasn't aware that the Tories now governed under the principle "As bad as the other guy."

You guys are very selective when it comes to polls.Didn't the polls go against the coalition attempt?But that's different right?There are many on the left that do not accept poll results(elections) that do not go their way,Bob Rae comes to mind.

Funny how when one person claims prorogation is a hot topic in Ottawa,and I point out(correctly, that it depends on the crowd)you bravely toss out "moronic" and "slimy" in a shot at me.You wouldn't do it in person I'm sure,so why do it here my friend? ;)

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You guys are very selective when it comes to polls.Didn't the polls go against the coalition attempt?But that's different right?There are many on the left that do not accept poll results(elections) that do not go their way,Bob Rae comes to mind.

Funny how when one person claims prorogation is a hot topic in Ottawa,and I point out(correctly, that it depends on the crowd)you bravely toss out "moronic" and "slimy" in a shot at me.You wouldn't do it in person I'm sure,so why do it here my friend? ;)

Let's get a few things clear up front:

1. I don't live in Ontario.

2. Bob Rae sucks.

3. I'm not a Liberal, nor am I supporter.

4. I never supported the Coalition.

5. Your anecdotal evidence is worthless, particularly in light of several polls indicating the opposite.

Edited by ToadBrother
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Unique isn't akin to unconstitutional, which is what the anti-prorogue teabagging crowd as been insisting. You may disagree with the use, but as I've already stated, a coalition takeover of government involving seperatists was also unique.

How quickly they forget. Harper already tried that ploy when he was in opposition.

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As a private sector employee,I can't just leave whenever I feel like it to go out and protest,unlike government.

I never understood why the anti-prorogation rally was held on a Saturday in Ottawa. The rally could have easily seen triple the bodies on the Hill had it been held on a workday. The public service crowd would have been there en masse, especially that there was free live entertainment.

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I think some of the problems in the Commons wouldn't appear if the MP's would vote the way the people they represent would want them to and not for the way the leader expects them too.Of course, we have seen what happens when the Tories vote that way, they are kicked out of lose their position in the party. As Obama said last night, they are sent there by the people and they should work for the people and not try to get one-up on the other guy or party. I feel Harper is not good for the country when I watch him in the Commons and the sooner the Tories get rid of him the better for the Tory party or perhaps they may end up like the PC's. I would really like to see him as the Premeier of Alberta and see how that province would react to him.

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I think some of the problems in the Commons wouldn't appear if the MP's would vote the way the people they represent would want them to and not for the way the leader expects them too.

Which is precisely why party leaders need to be elected by the caucus rather than general party membership. Why should a leader now care one bit about backbencher MPs? They can't do squat to him. If he relied on them to remain leader, however...

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Edited by g_bambino
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Which is precisely why party leaders need to be elected by the caucus rather than general party membership. Why should a leader now care one bit about backbencher MPs? They can't do squat to him. If he relied on them to remain leader, however...

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I agree wholeheartedly, and also the prime minister should be chosen by a vote of the commons, not automatically be given to the party leader of the faction with more seats than any other single party. The majority in Parliament should choose the leader that will form government.

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You may say you're no fan of Harper, yet you do so while loading ToadBrother's words with an imaginary anti-Harper partisanship that you then turn into a target for your hate.

Tha you mistake common disdain for "hate" says a lot more about your partisanship than about mine.

TB's point, though, isn't that Harper alone is evil for proroguing parliament (as much of the rabid Left has been trying to do),

Yes, actually it is.

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I never understood why the anti-prorogation rally was held on a Saturday in Ottawa. The rally could have easily seen triple the bodies on the Hill had it been held on a workday. The public service crowd would have been there en masse, especially that there was free live entertainment.

The public service crowd doesn't give a rats ass about proruging parliament.

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The public service crowd doesn't give a rats ass about proruging parliament.

I assume the edict has come down from CPC Party Central. I notice that there are two tacts being worked here, 1) tell everyone that no one cares about this and 2) tell everyone that the Liberals didit more.

Few are buying this.

Carry on.

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