bush_cheney2004 Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 The soldiers reason to be there was not their own but instead at the behest of their government in the process of obeying orders issued by authorized command authority. So Canadian Forces are now made up of conscripts? As if attacking Afghanistan was not bad enough, the "hunt for WMD's" in Iraq closed the door on credibility from those advocating such actions in the first place. You just contradicted yourself vis-a-vis NATO and UN actions in Afghanistan (Bonn Agreement) The war on terror is all about keeping the defense industry in the USA up and running with a nice little profit margin. Surely you have heard the phrase military industrial complex...... ....and making LAV III's in Ontario! The USA knew there was WMD's in Iraq because they still had the receipts, they sold them to Iraq to use in a war against the evil nation of Iran. Iraq is not Afghanistan.....Chretien said so. Lets not go to where this is headed. But you are leading the way. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Topaz Posted January 1, 2010 Author Report Posted January 1, 2010 Afghanistan IS turning into Iraq and then there's Pakistan where both Taliban and Al Qaeda are and there is NO way short of dropping a nuke is the west going to win this war! There is more Muslims in the world than people living in North America! The head of the Taliban said that they are going to push even further and push NATO out! Why do we let all these people die for a war that can't be won by the military??? What is Harper going to do when we start losing our military faster by the hand of the Taliban? Quote
Smallc Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 What is Harper going to do when we start losing our military faster by the hand of the Taliban? Stick to the timetable - the plan. Sticking to something is an idea that current Liberal supporters wouldn't know anything about though. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) Afghanistan IS turning into Iraq and then there's Pakistan where both Taliban and Al Qaeda are and there is NO way short of dropping a nuke is the west going to win this war! So now you want a nuclear attack on millions (with somebody else's nukes) because Canadian Forces have 138 killed ? Interesting approach..... There is more Muslims in the world than people living in North America! The head of the Taliban said that they are going to push even further and push NATO out! Why do we let all these people die for a war that can't be won by the military??? What is Harper going to do when we start losing our military faster by the hand of the Taliban? Prorogue Parliament? Edited January 1, 2010 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Guest American Woman Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 Afghanistan IS turning into Iraq and then there's Pakistan where both Taliban and Al Qaeda are and there is NO way short of dropping a nuke is the west going to win this war! There is more Muslims in the world than people living in North America! So you think the only way the west can win the war is to kill all the Muslims? Quote
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 So Canadian Forces are now made up of conscripts? Not at all. What I said was that soldiers were obeying the commands of their superiors. You just contradicted yourself vis-a-vis NATO and UN actions in Afghanistan (Bonn Agreement) Not even close to reality BC. What I said I meant, and that was that the WMD's were there at one time because the US sold them to Sadam in the first place. They also knew that what they sold was binary compounds that in fact had a stale date which had expired years before. Therefore the "hunt" for WMD's was a farce that the whole world was witness to and it destroyed the credibilty of the US on such matters. ....and making LAV III's in Ontario! Canadians and our companies are not immune from the profit motive either. Yes we manufacture some weapons systems here, but that only proves the point I made. Iraq is not Afghanistan.....Chretien said so. No Iraq wasn't, and he was right to say and do what he did. At least in the case of Afghanistan the entire world as represented in the UN was in support of the removal of the Taliban because of their resistance to hand over their hero Bin Laden. That act was like leveling Washington to get even for the sniper issue when that happened. But you are leading the way. Unfortunately yes I did. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 Not at all. What I said was that soldiers were obeying the commands of their superiors. And how many were forced to go to Afghanistan on multiple tours? Not even close to reality BC. What I said I meant, and that was that the WMD's were there at one time because the US sold them to Sadam in the first place. They also knew that what they sold was binary compounds that in fact had a stale date which had expired years before. Therefore the "hunt" for WMD's was a farce that the whole world was witness to and it destroyed the credibilty of the US on such matters. But not France, or Germany, or Russia, or even Canada...right? Their "credibility" on such matters is intact...LOL! Canadians and our companies are not immune from the profit motive either. Yes we manufacture some weapons systems here, but that only proves the point I made. Then make it for Canada too, a nation at war in Afghanistan, and the subject of this thread. No Iraq wasn't, and he was right to say and do what he did. At least in the case of Afghanistan the entire world as represented in the UN was in support of the removal of the Taliban because of their resistance to hand over their hero Bin Laden. That act was like leveling Washington to get even for the sniper issue when that happened. Yet you persist with comparisons to Iraq, where Canada has no troops or military commitments. Why is that? Unfortunately yes I did. Yup.... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 Ah, I see. So they're outraged that the US aids and abets opression, torture and imprisonment..... even though they themselves enthusiastically embrace oppression, torture, murder and imprisonment of anyone and everyone who disagrees with them. Got ya! The outrage is most certainly rooted in U.S. interference in the region, starting in 1953. What this outrage has morphed into since then should not be the least bit surprising to people. In a process that is very similar to the violent sexual abuse of some children, the dysfunction that stems from their abuse can be passed onto subsequent generations as the abused often become abusers. This compounds the initial evil and abuse - it most certainly does not diminish it or excuse it. The U.S. started falling from grace in 1953 with the covert overthrow of Iran's government and the fall gained inertia with the subsequent overthrow of other governments and support for dictators. The U.S. morphed from a Shining Beacon into a symbol of oppression. I mean, they join up with the Taliban, a regime which made Iraq and Syria seem liberal by comparison, a regime which was, by any definition, more cruel, more bloody, more vicious in its use of torture, murder and oppression than any other in the middle east - and you want to somehow believe it's because of their concern about human rights abuses? Look at some of the charmers the U.S. joined up with. In doing so the U.S. violated its own democratic values in a way that is every bit as shocking and outrageous as when a priest violates a child. The outraged denial of people who refuse to accept America's abuse mirrors that which protect a church when allegations of abuse are made against it. Are you for real? I'm afraid so. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 While you're at it, perhaps you should ask yourself what moderate Muslims have done to provoke the beatings, maiming, death, and oppression that the Taliban and al Qaeda have inflicted upon them. Its clear that being moderate has provoked them. My lack of support for the war on terror provokes people like you and Argus in pretty much the same way, obviously without the resulting beatings, maiming, death, and oppression. I have to wonder though what I might risk in the wake of terrorists detonating a nuclear bomb in Canada or the U.S. I suspect my urge to continue regarding this as simply being more blow-back might provoke violence against me. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 It kills me that the same people tearing their hair out over Canadian troops handing over a few people to Afghan authorities and who demand their conduct be squeaky clean, can so readily justify any action by the Taliban and al Queda by just blaming it on the west. Methinks they should sit down and have a think before beaking off about double standards. I have not justified a single thing the Taliban has done. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
ToadBrother Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 The U.S. started falling from grace in 1953 with the covert overthrow of Iran's government and the fall gained inertia with the subsequent overthrow of other governments and support for dictators. The U.S. morphed from a Shining Beacon into a symbol of oppression. I'm not going to defend every decision, but do you somehow think we'd all be freer if the US had not pursued a campaign of containment against the Soviets? It's hard to take someone seriously who simply takes events out o the context of the times in which they happened and uses them to make a completely post hoc judgement call. There was, after all, this incredibly powerful, very expansionist power with vast armies sitting in Eastern Europe, arming, funding and even training every damned rebel group it could get its hands on from the Americas to Asia, that possessed a vast arsenal of nuclear weapons, a highly advanced navy and the capacity to pretty much incinerate any major city in the world at its leisure. Now, given that situation, I'd love to know how you would have dealt with it. Quote
eyeball Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 I don't understand comments such as these: ...more in the context of a guy who retaliates against someone for aiding and abetting the torture, imprisonment and oppression of many other family members, friends, co-workers etc etc. The context of the question from Argus compared the retaliation of 9/11 to the action of one guy against another. My response was in the same context. The fact that they are just as willing to target other Muslims who don't go along with their demands as they are westerners basically proves that it's all about "religious extremism." No it doesn't, it simply supports my observation that abused people often become abusers themselves. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 The U.S. started falling from grace in 1953 with the covert overthrow of Iran's government and the fall gained inertia with the subsequent overthrow of other governments and support for dictators. The U.S. morphed from a Shining Beacon into a symbol of oppression. Would that include the Suez Crisis of 1956 or does that screw up your little theory? Look at some of the charmers the U.S. joined up with. In doing so the U.S. violated its own democratic values in a way that is every bit as shocking and outrageous as when a priest violates a child. The outraged denial of people who refuse to accept America's abuse mirrors that which protect a church when allegations of abuse are made against it. You obviously flunked US history...but that's OK....you live in Canada! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Army Guy Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 Such sad news again for Canadians and the loved ones of those who have died. The journalist, a 34 year old woman died Wednesday by an IED once more. At the end of the following article of this story its says that the Afghan National Army is siding on the side of the Taliban and making NATO the enemy. How can we stay in a country when we don't know who are the enemy??????? When the government is/was so corrupt itself. The US also lost 8 CIA agents in a seperate bombing. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091231/world/afghan_cda_soldiers Here we are once again, using the deaths of soldiers and now a reporter to make a point, or in this case make a political point....Asking the same old questions over and over, ones that have been answered fully by not only this forum, our government, the media, and yet it simply alludes alot of Canadians.....want to make a point then do so, but lets not do it on the deaths of someone else... Frankly i'm a little disappointed in this whole thread which as most threads do quickly fade into a thousand different topics, and fails to concentrate on the main point.....or perhaps we all missed it,,,4 of our nations soldiers and a reporter, died in an IED attack....Doing the job this nation had assigned to them... I guess topaz had failed in reading her article she had posted, the why,where, is really spelled out in Taylors quotes.... I believe that the mission in Afghanistan is vital for us not only as Canadians but as human beings, what we are doing is trying to help Afghans develop solutions to Afghan problems and to help them help themselves," Taylor wrote. "Build today for a better tomorrow. This will not be accomplished overnight, but neither was Rome built in a day." Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
William Ashley Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) Such sad news again for Canadians and the loved ones of those who have died. The journalist, a 34 year old woman died Wednesday by an IED once more. At the end of the following article of this story its says that the Afghan National Army is siding on the side of the Taliban and making NATO the enemy. How can we stay in a country when we don't know who are the enemy??????? When the government is/was so corrupt itself. The US also lost 8 CIA agents in a seperate bombing. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091231/world/afghan_cda_soldiers Don't kill civilians - don't arm occupied civilians. They are muslim you probably killed atleast one of their relatives - you are wasting your time. If you have a gun you can only make it worse within the confines of the rules of war. Part of the issue is that pashtuns are from the areas Canadians are from. the government ain't. What you need is an arab peace keeping force - not affliliated with Al Qaeda.. not a western islam hating army of 100000 americans The Taliban is already reactivated within the government - Taliban = pashtun = the ethnic majority of afghanistan. Edited January 1, 2010 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
Army Guy Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 You could hardly expect a soldier to say otherwise. The reality of the "war on terror" is something else. The war in Afghanistan and the "war on terror" are two different things. Afghan is specific and the "war on terror" is not. How so, when they are part of the same issue, without the War on terror there would be no War in Afghanistan. perhaps your suggesting something else. they are linked with the war in Afghan being one of it's chapters. The soldiers reason to be there was not their own but instead at the behest of their government in the process of obeying orders issued by authorized command authority. Not true, lets not forget that these soldiers volunteered,it was them who stood up and said i think i got what it takes to make a difference and the Afghan mission is a noble cause..... and to further make a point these soldiers were reserve soldiers,they where not called up to active duty, but rather stood up and placed their name on a waiting list to serve their country....that alone has got to say something, about the character of these young men, so lets not dismiss what they are saying because they where just doing what they were told, but rather lets listen to what they have to say because they've earned that merit....atleast i think so.... And while these soldiers are being asked to volunteer by their government,they are expressing their opinions freely, much like you and me, as we all have to remember that it was 'us' the majority of Canadians that voted in both these governments that have kept us in this theater of war....if we are going to dismiss our soldiers opinions,perhaps we should also dismiss all those cons and liberals opinions as well, after all we did elect them and we all know that it is the people that influence how they act.... I guess only those NDP's and block party followers should be commenting on thise topic.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 Not sure if your addressing me or not william. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
William Ashley Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) Here we are once again, using the deaths of soldiers and now a reporter to make a point, or in this case make a political point....Asking the same old questions over and over, ones that have been answered fully by not only this forum, our government, the media, and yet it simply alludes alot of Canadians.....want to make a point then do so, but lets not do it on the deaths of someone else... Frankly i'm a little disappointed in this whole thread which as most threads do quickly fade into a thousand different topics, and fails to concentrate on the main point.....or perhaps we all missed it,,,4 of our nations soldiers and a reporter, died in an IED attack....Doing the job this nation had assigned to them... I guess topaz had failed in reading her article she had posted, the why,where, is really spelled out in Taylors quotes.... If it is a point that saves other Canadians lives then you do what you need to, why the hell can't we say what a pointless loss of life that is if it is what we beleive, are you against free speach and opinion also? Those lives mean something so it is fully acceptable to comment on disatisfaction with the government that committed them to death for an invasion and occupation half way around the world. Perhaps aiding your allies in this case would be talking them out of a pointless war, pointless deaths and waste of resources. Edited January 1, 2010 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
William Ashley Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) Not sure if your addressing me or not william. Hit the reply in the bottom right to be part of the thread link rather than add reply. Yes you are trying to tell people what they can comment on or not, trying to bridge inappropiacy and tape over someones mouth on a tragic loss of life for a misguided cause. How dare you tell people what is right for them to say. You don't like it don't read it. Edited January 1, 2010 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
wyly Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 the war in afghanistan is a waste of time and money and most importantly lives...this is a war that cannot be won without exterminating the enemy totally, that is not going to happen...the Taliban only need wait until we exhaust ourselves financially and emotionally and leave, then they'll step back in and finish/win the war... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Smallc Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 this is a war that cannot be won without exterminating the enemy totally That's not true at all. Quote
ToadBrother Posted January 1, 2010 Report Posted January 1, 2010 That's not true at all. Not only that, but it's more than a little racist. Quote
wyly Posted January 2, 2010 Report Posted January 2, 2010 (edited) That's not true at all. did the Soviets win?..did the USA win in Vietnam?...it isn't going to happen here either, the Taliban strike at will when and where they want regardless how many troops are sent in to win a conventional war... you cannot defeat an enemy that will only fight a unconventional war...the Taliban like the Mujahedeen before them like the VC before them they need not win a single battle they only need to outlast...since this is where they live it's a given they are not going to leave the outcome is inevitable...we do not have the stomach to wage the kind of ruthless warfare needed to eradicate the Taliban only the Afghans will do that, so we should leave and let them have at it... Edited January 2, 2010 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted January 2, 2010 Report Posted January 2, 2010 Not only that, but it's more than a little racist. me racist ? ... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Army Guy Posted January 2, 2010 Report Posted January 2, 2010 If it is a point that saves other Canadians lives then you do what you need to, why the hell can't we say what a pointless loss of life that is if it is what we beleive, are you against free speach and opinion also? No, William i'm not again'st free speech, what i.m against is you and others doing on the backs of our fallen, want to make a point by all means do so....but the heading for this post disrespects those who have given their lives in something they believed in ... something you have said was a pointless waste...and yet they where the ones that made that sacrifice based on what they believed. Those lives mean something so it is fully acceptable to comment on disatisfaction with the government that committed them to death for an invasion and occupation half way around the world. How so, what do they mean to you as a Canadian William, your knowledge on the topic seems limited, and your comments full of emotion based on incomplete facts. Hit the reply in the bottom right to be part of the thread link rather than add reply. I think i know how the forum works by now. I asked the question because your reply had topaz remarks not mine.... Yes you are trying to tell people what they can comment on or not, trying to bridge inappropiacy and tape over someones mouth on a tragic loss of life for a misguided cause. As i have said before William want to comment then post away, i however think it is inappropriate to do so on the backs of our fallen, when they clearly do not share your points or values...perhaps you can not express or articulate your piont without doing so.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
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