Canada may have to consider hedging its future..

[whowhere]

Should Canada and the US be afraid of China very afraid!?!

Looking at the numbers they speak volumes!

http://www.worldatlas.com/geoquiz/thelist.htm

LARGEST COUNTRIES (by land mass)

locator map here

Russia 17,075,400 sq km, (6,592,846 sq miles)

Canada 9,330,970 sq km, (3,602,707 sq miles)

China 9,326,410 sq km, (3,600,947 sq miles)

USA 9.166,600 sq km, (3,539,242 sq miles)

COUNTRY POPULATION (largest)

(February, 2006 numbers)

China 1,306,313,800

India 1,080,264,400

USA 295,734,100

The fact is China has more land mass then the US and their population is 4 times the size. In the last 8 years china's population has increased 2 and half times that of the US.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats8.htm

What is Canada going to do? What should Canada be doing?

[ToadBrother]

Should Canada and the US be afraid of China very afraid!?!

Looking at the numbers they speak volumes!

http://www.worldatlas.com/geoquiz/thelist.htm

LARGEST COUNTRIES (by land mass)

locator map here

Russia 17,075,400 sq km, (6,592,846 sq miles)

Canada 9,330,970 sq km, (3,602,707 sq miles)

China 9,326,410 sq km, (3,600,947 sq miles)

USA 9.166,600 sq km, (3,539,242 sq miles)

COUNTRY POPULATION (largest)

(February, 2006 numbers)

China 1,306,313,800

India 1,080,264,400

USA 295,734,100

The fact is China has more land mass then the US and their population is 4 times the size. In the last 8 years china's population has increased 2 and half times that of the US.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats8.htm

What is Canada going to do? What should Canada be doing?

Trading with them, of course.

And China's goal to be the king of kings and the mightiest among the mighty is filled with obstacles, not the least of which is that the great economic revolution has hardly made a dent among the hundreds of millions in rural China, and there is still considerable unrest despite massive efforts at Han colonization in those regions it essentially holds as a colonial power (Tibet and the Uyghurs come to mind).

The Great Powers already tried to basically undermine and dominate China during the 19th and well into the 20th century (one can easily regard the Japanese occupation and attrocities as simple the most direct means by which outside powers went about it). At the end of the day there's nothing to do, other than to try to get them in to an international system, to try to work past those navel-gazing and paranoid elements and, at the end of the day, do business with them. Economic interdependence seems the best way to keep everyone in check.

[bush_cheney2004]

Should Canada and the US be afraid of China very afraid!?!

No....China had to be "rescued" from tiny Japan.

[whowhere]

Trading with them, of course.

And China's goal to be the king of kings and the mightiest among the mighty is filled with obstacles, not the least of which is that the great economic revolution has hardly made a dent among the hundreds of millions in rural China, and there is still considerable unrest despite massive efforts at Han colonization in those regions it essentially holds as a colonial power (Tibet and the Uyghurs come to mind).

The Great Powers already tried to basically undermine and dominate China during the 19th and well into the 20th century (one can easily regard the Japanese occupation and attrocities as simple the most direct means by which outside powers went about it). At the end of the day there's nothing to do, other than to try to get them in to an international system, to try to work past those navel-gazing and paranoid elements and, at the end of the day, do business with them. Economic interdependence seems the best way to keep everyone in check.

By your response it appears China is still immensed in its internal housekeeping. In spite of this, they are still growing their population and you can be sure its not through immigration. Aside from Russia China is the biggest, the most populated Area in the world. They are growing 4 times the rate of the US through natural population growth. That makes them a true powerhouse. Because they still have economic remodeling of their rural Areas means their GDP will begin to treble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

GDP (millions of USD)

European Union 18,387,785[4]

1 United States 14,441,425

2 Japan 4,910,692

3 China 4,327,448h

It appears the EU is the economic world leader and you can be sure China's GDP will certainly match the US at some point given their population advantage over the US.

[bush_cheney2004]

....It appears the EU is the economic world leader and you can be sure China's GDP will certainly match the US at some point given their population advantage over the US.

OK...so why is tiny Canada (GDP smaller than California's) part of this discussion?

[bjre]

China had been the most rich nation in the world for 2 thousand of years before 1840. It is not aggressive like western nations.

Canada's future is depending on Canada itself not on China. If Canada still indulge in letting CAS, women's shelters, laws to destroy its families (the cell of society), let its kids become more selfish and don't care about learning, let more and more families struggle just for banks, insurance companies, hospital systems to earn more, struggle for non-sense legal attacking, Canada will have no hope.

Edited December 20, 2009 by bjre

[ZenOps]

Well... Technically Canada does not own most of its own land mass. Canada never got around to full independance or independant land ownership. There are some exceptions, but not many.

The reigning British Monarchy owns 89% of Canada as crown land.

Much like how China owns Tibet. Tibet may however undergo a temporary land transition under the British Crown (like Hong Kong for 99 years) or perhaps even for an undeterimined amount of time. If Harper prorogues government for a second time - he may be pushing the nation back under British rule of law (of which we parially broke away from British rule back in 1982, the US became fully independant back in 1776.)

Edited December 20, 2009 by ZenOps

[Jerry J. Fortin]

89% of Canada is held in trust by the Government of Canada.

[Riverwind]

China had been the most rich nation in the world for 2 thousand of years before 1840. It is not aggressive like western nations.

The Tibetans and the Uighurs would disagree.

China fell behind the west because it became too arrogant and did not appreciate that trade brings wealth. There are many reasons for this but one I find more interesting is an ancient chinese prejudice against the mechant class.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Riverwind

[Guest American Woman]

Should Canada and the US be afraid of China very afraid!?!

Looking at the numbers they speak volumes!

COUNTRY POPULATION (largest)

(February, 2006 numbers)

China 1,306,313,800

India 1,080,264,400

USA 295,734,100

The fact is China has more land mass then the US and their population is 4 times the size. In the last 8 years china's population has increased 2 and half times that of the US.

A large population in and of itself doesn't mean much. In fact, it can be a hindrance if the majority are low-income.

I would say a rising power that China is worried about is India; it sounds as if it may be experiencing faster economic growth than China. So should we fear India, too? But since you later include the EU in GDP comparisons, you'd have to look at their land mass (not sure what that would be) and population (around 5,000,000) too, and the fact that more countries seem to be joining on a pretty regular basis, it's hard to say where they are headed.

I don't know how/if 'per capita' figures into the meaning of the GDP; does a higher GDP$ per capita mean anything, or is it just the total that matters? -- does anyone know?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

GDP itself is a deceptive concept.

Frank Shostak, an adjunct scholar of the Mises Institute, observes, “The GDP framework gives the impression that it is not the activities of individuals that produce goods and services, but something else outside these activities called the ‘economy.’ However, at no stage does the so-called ‘economy’ have a life of its own, independent of individuals. The so-called economy is a metaphor – it doesn’t exist.”

[nicky10013]

For those interested on the China/India topic I recommend reading Fareed Zakaria's The Post American World.

Zakaria says that it's not necessarily about the decline of the west but the rise of the rest. He interestingly calls it a multi-unipolar world. The US at the top but China, India and to a certain extent Europe nipping at it's heels. He argues that the dynamism of the US economy will keep the competitors at bay, yet on one of his recent episodes of GPS on CNN he noted that the global competitive ranking of the US was around 41st or 42nd (I actually noticed Canada ahead by 2 spots which kind of puzzled me) so he questioned whether or not this was totally true anymore.

What we know right now is that China's GDP is growing between 8-12% per annum. 8 is what they shoot for but unofficially the Chinese government despises being below 12. China is completely outstripping Indian growth. The reason is that India as a democracy doesn't have the same power to physically move people around to promote economic growth as China does. The problem with such exponential growth in the Chinese economy isn't necessarily the pollution or the international community but surprisingly democratisation. Growing economies means bread winners can comfortably feed families. The easier that becomes, the more the Chinese can focus on their political situation. There are now 70,000 anti-government protesters each year combined with free elections in villages certainly signals China's move towards more open forms of governance. The problem is the instability in instituting democratic changes can significantly hamper or reverse the economic growth with which China is so familiar. Time will tell.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Those are internal problems within China. We have no right to interfere there.

[charter.rights]

A large population in and of itself doesn't mean much. In fact, it can be a hindrance if the majority are low-income.

I would say a rising power that China is worried about is India; it sounds as if it may be experiencing faster economic growth than China. So should we fear India, too? But since you later include the EU in GDP comparisons, you'd have to look at their land mass (not sure what that would be) and population (around 5,000,000) too, and the fact that more countries seem to be joining on a pretty regular basis, it's hard to say where they are headed.

I don't know how/if 'per capita' figures into the meaning of the GDP; does a higher GDP$ per capita mean anything, or is it just the total that matters? -- does anyone know?

Americans have almost always ignored the importance of population in recent history. Not only does mass force trump high technology, but massive populations can lead to rebellion and world conflict when they get out of hand.

Certainly there would be a research project in comparing historical world conflict and the effectiveness of countries with mass populations but suffice to say that it is my opinion that history has shown that mass populations can produce more, and defend better than small populations with high technology.

It would be an underestimation to suggest that China is not a world threat. Not only do they have access to most of the worlds technologies, but they can mass produce them faster and cheaper than even some of the western nations. If they decided to turn their abilities into making weapons of mass destruction for their own use, I'm sure that the rest of the world would not be able to respond fast enough to do anything about it.

[eyeball]

Americans have almost always ignored the importance of population in recent history. Not only does mass force trump high technology, but massive populations can lead to rebellion and world conflict when they get out of hand.

Certainly there would be a research project in comparing historical world conflict and the effectiveness of countries with mass populations but suffice to say that it is my opinion that history has shown that mass populations can produce more, and defend better than small populations with high technology.

It would be an underestimation to suggest that China is not a world threat. Not only do they have access to most of the worlds technologies, but they can mass produce them faster and cheaper than even some of the western nations. If they decided to turn their abilities into making weapons of mass destruction for their own use, I'm sure that the rest of the world would not be able to respond fast enough to do anything about it.

The real threat of the bigger populated countries/economies is the harm they will do to the environment and ecosystems we all rely on and we can't respond fast enough to help them get even bigger.

China and India are literally racing towards a cliff and the rest of the world is cheering them on in hopes of selling them the commodities that hundreds of millions of new up and coming Chinese and Indian consumers will need to join the race.

Edited December 20, 2009 by eyeball

[Topaz]

In 2001, the US debt was 1.4% of GDR or 144.5 Billion by the time Bush left it was 1017Bil or 7.4% of GDR and the amount of money owing China is... well, the US could become part of China. http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

[bush_cheney2004]

Americans have almost always ignored the importance of population in recent history. Not only does mass force trump high technology, but massive populations can lead to rebellion and world conflict when they get out of hand.

I agree...the Americans ignored the population of the British Empire as recently as 1776.

Certainly there would be a research project in comparing historical world conflict and the effectiveness of countries with mass populations but suffice to say that it is my opinion that history has shown that mass populations can produce more, and defend better than small populations with high technology.

Whereas large populations with "high technology" can do even more damage.

It would be an underestimation to suggest that China is not a world threat. Not only do they have access to most of the worlds technologies, but they can mass produce them faster and cheaper than even some of the western nations. If they decided to turn their abilities into making weapons of mass destruction for their own use, I'm sure that the rest of the world would not be able to respond fast enough to do anything about it.

China still hasn't figured out tiny Taiwan yet....let alone how to cross the world's oceans with a sharp spear.

Edited December 20, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[ToadBrother]

China had been the most rich nation in the world for 2 thousand of years before 1840. It is not aggressive like western nations.

Tell that to Tibet and Taiwan.

Canada's future is depending on Canada itself not on China. If Canada still indulge in letting CAS, women's shelters, laws to destroy its families (the cell of society), let its kids become more selfish and don't care about learning, let more and more families struggle just for banks, insurance companies, hospital systems to earn more, struggle for non-sense legal attacking, Canada will have no hope.

Thanks for yet another stream of consciousness set of non sequiturs.

[ToadBrother]

A large population in and of itself doesn't mean much. In fact, it can be a hindrance if the majority are low-income.

China has had the largest population in the world for at least two thousand years, and probably considerably longer. That vast population has had some rather extraordinary effects. The first wave of middle class commercial goods to Europe, for instance, was not supplied by European markets, but rather by tens of thousands of Chinese households and small factories producing everything from chinaware to dolls. The power of China is, and has been for thousands of years, the sheer manpower that it can bring to any problem or necessity. The biggest obstacle, historically, has been a government that tended to be isolationist, and by the final four or five centuries of its Imperial history, positively navel gazing. It was a vast corrupt machine incapable of changing direction, the polar opposite of Meiji Japan.

But even during that period of diminishing central authority, China was still able to fuel the first consumer revolution to the Western world, and once it had gone through a painful period from the mid-19th to the mid-20th century, and after the spasms of the Cultural Revolution, well, that population is being harnessed again. As I said, China's vast population has always been its greatest strength.

[bush_cheney2004]

In 2001, the US debt was 1.4% of GDR or 144.5 Billion by the time Bush left it was 1017Bil or 7.4% of GDR and the amount of money owing China is... well, the US could become part of China. http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

What is GDR? China holds about $950 billion of US public debt depending on how you count it and Japan holds a good chunk too. So does that mean that the US will become part of Japan too? Will that include Canada, which is already part of the US?

[bush_cheney2004]

.... As I said, China's vast population has always been its greatest strength.

That did not impress tiny Japan very much in 1937.

[blueblood]

What is GDR? China holds about $950 billion of US public debt depending on how you count it and Japan holds a good chunk too. So does that mean that the US will become part of Japan too? Will that include Canada, which is already part of the US?

I don't know why everyone brings up that China holds x amt. of debt of the US. So they hold it, so what? You and I know they don't have the guts to call that debt in, it would be foolish to do so. To think the chinese can force the americans to give them 950 billion dollars on a whim is laughable.

To those who think that sheer manpower always trumps technology, refer to the conquests of Alexander the Great. Also of note was the sheer kill ratio of the Americans vs. the Iraqis in Desert Storm.

[whowhere]

OK...so why is tiny Canada (GDP smaller than California's) part of this discussion?

The discussion is the US is a setting sun. It's time Canada put up its sails and hammer out deals with the EU and china.

[bush_cheney2004]

The discussion is the US is a setting sun. It's time Canada put up its sails and hammer out deals with the EU and china.

OK...so in keeping with you nautical theme, you are saying that Canada is just a large barnacle on the USA?

[whowhere]

The Tibetans and the Uighurs would disagree.

China fell behind the west because it became too arrogant and did not appreciate that trade brings wealth. There are many reasons for this but one I find more interesting is an ancient chinese prejudice against the mechant class.

Look at the numbers, china is a geographically large. Their land, like the US is all usable, unlike Canada and Russia because of frigid temperatures. The US has nothing on China except their belief they are better. Who is the world manufacturing powerhouse? China! Who has the largest Population? China. Who's population is increasing naturally and at a faster rate than so called superior western nations? China. Obviously China is on the rise and the US better come forward with a new act because the EU and China will certainly become the new centers of the world. Canada has to start securing the border against the US and hedge its future on growing successful countries than debt laden rusty US of A. The EU has the rule of Law and is setting standards. China is hard working country determined to achieve. The US has become soft and lazy. The US once upon atime were inovators and leaders but look at they have become. If you don't want a kid to play with matches you don't give them matches. China is where its at because US corporations gave china the matches to burn the house down.

The only way for the US to regain its edge is to assault the Corporations with outsourcing tarriffs and use that money to build up America. The US is equal when it comes to geographical land mass but they are outnumbered on the population front. China is not going stop its momentum so the US better decide if its a nation of rust or gold. Until the US figures that out, Canada needs to start building brigdes with the EU and china.