Harper to prorogue parliament AGAIN?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

That turned out good.

Now that you completely blew your position lets hope the government answer isn't as ridiculous as the above comment.

Has anyone actually blamed our soldiers for anything at all?

[g_bambino]

What countries, what failures? What sort of meaning am I supposed to read into all the """"'s you used? I provided a specific failure, of a salmon fishery.

I just skimmed through your responses to me, and nowhere do I see mention of a fishery; you were smiply complaining that our constitution is too old to remain in use.

But, your apparent belief in one local and specific example as indisputable proof of a total breakdown of an entire state says a lot; talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As I said, I'd rather take the tried and tested over something I'm expected to accept simply because it's "modern" and "visionary"; which words I put in quotations because they're mere jingoism meant to invoke emotional attraction rather than rational approval. Advertising slogans like these were used to drum up popular support for the idealistic societal structures of the Bolsheviks, the Fascists, and other agents of revolutionary change around the world. And look at how the shallow propaganda meant nothing when the ideas were put into action: colossal failures as countries fell into dictatorship - true, actual dictatorship, as opposed to the imaginary despot of Canada, dreamt up by the whiners amongst us - the entire USSR, Mussolini's Italy, the Third Reich, the first French republic, 50% of the countries in Africa, the Salazar dictatorship of Portugal, Franco's Spain; all disasters that were the immediate or eventual result of systematic revolutions that knocked down sound, well used structures for no other reason than the implementation of something - anything - new.

So, forgive me if I don't buy into your agitations for change; merely saying "old" hasn't convinced me that anything is actually wrong, and I don't believe new is better just because it's new.

[+ after premature posting]

Edited January 3, 2010 by g_bambino

[Keepitsimple]

Question for you. What do you think would bothers Canadians more, the torturing or the cover up/dishonesty of a government? The oppositions parties are there to question the PM, it not whining. His numbers will probably go up when the computer age of voting is here, instead will question the results.

As the polls suggest - Canadians are not dumb. They realize that this is an issue of how Afghans treat Afghans. They also realize that Canada has progressively put in place better oversight systems to help monitor the situation. Indeed, the issue is "old news".....but the media continue to feast off it - just like H1N1 and drowning Polar Bears.

To answer your question, Canadians are most bothered by the deeply entrenched cultural tradition of revenge and the wanton killing that it breeds.

[eyeball]

I just skimmed through your responses to me, and nowhere do I see mention of a fishery; you were smiply complaining that our constitution is too old to remain in use.

But, your apparent belief in one local and specific example as indisputable proof of a total breakdown of an entire state says a lot; talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Communities that rely on salmon are very similar to canaries in a coal mine. The inability of salmon to continue providing a living to these communities are an indicator of failing government structures to steward this valuable resource. Beyond the failure to simply protect the environment salmon depend on or to manage the fisheries that target them is the inability of our governing structures to produce or find political solutions to these problems. The protection of our most important common property resources like fresh clean water is almost regarded as sacred given of our government(s). This responsibility is shared across several jurisdictions with the federal government ultimately being the most responsible. As I said this responsibility runs deeper than simply protecting the water it also means responsibility for ensuring that the governing structures are suitable for the task. I submit they're not. Canada may be blessed with lots of water and we're unlikely to break out in open war over our water resources but the same may not hold true in other regions of the world, some of which as you point out are using the same governing structures we are. I think if war does break out in these regions a good part if not the biggest part of why will be due to their inability or unwillingness to change how they govern themselves. I predict their old ways will tell them to apply old solutions and they will fail.

As I said, I'd rather take the tried and tested over something I'm expected to accept simply because it's "modern" and "visionary"; which words I put in quotations because they're mere jingoism meant to invoke emotional attraction rather than rational approval. Advertising slogans like these were used to drum up popular support for the idealistic societal structures of the Bolsheviks, the Fascists, and other agents of revolutionary change around the world.

The very same sorts of jingoistic slogans are also used to invoke an emotional attachment to the ways of the old by producing an irrational fear of change.

And look at how the shallow propaganda meant nothing when the ideas were put into action: colossal failures as countries fell into dictatorship - true, actual dictatorship, as opposed to the imaginary despot of Canada, dreamt up by the whiners amongst us - the entire USSR, Mussolini's Italy, the Third Reich, the first French republic, 50% of the countries in Africa, the Salazar dictatorship of Portugal, Franco's Spain; all disasters that were the immediate or eventual result of systematic revolutions that knocked down sound, well used structures for no other reason than the implementation of something - anything - new.

Yeah well, despite all the high falutin' rhetoric I hear about how wonderful all the old things are I have this "dead canary" that says otherwise. And you suggest I should keep moving forward into the future with my gaze fixated on the rear view mirror? I'll pass thanks.

So, forgive me if I don't buy into your agitations for change; merely saying "old" hasn't convinced me that anything is actually wrong, and I don't believe new is better just because it's new.

[+ after premature posting]

Perhaps you haven't lived through a double economic collapse fuelled by the under-abundance of once abundant natural resources and seen just how ineffective all the kings horses and all the kings men were at putting things back together again. Funnily enough they were experts at tearing it apart. Of course they too disdained virtually any new ideas and changes that local people wanted to try applying and that is what has convinced me that the real change that needs to be made is this attitude that change is something to fear.

Edited January 3, 2010 by eyeball

[waldo]

As the polls suggest - Canadians are not dumb. They realize that this is an issue of how Afghans treat Afghans. They also realize that Canada has progressively put in place better oversight systems to help monitor the situation. Indeed, the issue is "old news".....but the media continue to feast off it - just like H1N1 and drowning Polar Bears.

To answer your question, Canadians are most bothered by the deeply entrenched cultural tradition of revenge and the wanton killing that it breeds.

clearly... not bothered at all... clearly, the war, itself is viewed as an issue of how, as you say, "Afghans treat Afghans" - to the point that 84% want Canadian combat troops withdrawn from Afghanistan... 51% before 2011. Yours is a very astute point, Simple - absolutely... Canadians are not bothered by the deeply entrenched cultural tradition of revenge and the wanton killing it breeds. Canadians are saying we should get out of the hellhole... the sooner, the better!

[Keepitsimple]

Question for you. What do you think would bothers Canadians more, the torturing or the cover up/dishonesty of a government? The oppositions parties are there to question the PM, it not whining. His numbers will probably go up when the computer age of voting is here, instead will question the results.

Canadians have common sense.....they know that this is an issue of how Afghans treat Afghans. We've put progressively better oversight in place to at least ensure that our prisoner handovers are treated reasonably well. This is old news - except to diehard partisans and the opposition.....and of course the media laps it up in the same outrageous manner as they did/do H1N1 and drowning Polar Bears.

To answer your question, most Canadians are bothered by the continued cultural tradition of revenge and the wanton killings in the name of some "religious" purpose.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[ironstone]

It would be nice if anyone who writes a poll question will do it in a more balanced way.I won't vote on this poll question as it is written.I hope Dr.Greenthumb doesn't work for any of the major polling firms.

But this is a good example of how poll results can be manipulated by the question.

[waldo]

As the polls suggest - Canadians are not dumb. They realize that this is an issue of how Afghans treat Afghans. They also realize that Canada has progressively put in place better oversight systems to help monitor the situation. Indeed, the issue is "old news".....but the media continue to feast off it - just like H1N1 and drowning Polar Bears.

To answer your question, Canadians are most bothered by the deeply entrenched cultural tradition of revenge and the wanton killing that it breeds.

clearly... not bothered at all... clearly, the war, itself is viewed as an issue of how, as you say, "Afghans treat Afghans" - to the point that 84% want Canadian combat troops withdrawn from Afghanistan... 51% before 2011. Yours is a very astute point, Simple - absolutely... Canadians are not bothered by the deeply entrenched cultural tradition of revenge and the wanton killing it breeds. Canadians are saying we should get out of the hellhole... the sooner, the better!

Canadians have common sense.....they know that this is an issue of how Afghans treat Afghans. We've put progressively better oversight in place to at least ensure that our prisoner handovers are treated reasonably well. This is old news - except to diehard partisans and the opposition.....and of course the media laps it up in the same outrageous manner as they did/do H1N1 and drowning Polar Bears.

To answer your question, most Canadians are bothered by the continued cultural tradition of revenge and the wanton killings in the name of some "religious" purpose.

Simple... I sense your need to re-quote reflects upon your uneasiness with having your original quote applied to the greater war "cause"... you know, the one where you don't wish to apply your highlighted "Canadians are not dumb" and "Canadians have common sense" to the expressed poll that 84% want Canadian combat troops withdrawn from Afghanistan... 51% before 2011. Oh... I guess I've re-quoted as well.

[DrGreenthumb]

It would be nice if anyone who writes a poll question will do it in a more balanced way.I won't vote on this poll question as it is written.I hope Dr.Greenthumb doesn't work for any of the major polling firms.

But this is a good example of how poll results can be manipulated by the question.

I wrote the poll question as kind of a joke a while ago when prorogue was just a rumour. I was away on holidays for a couple of days during Christmnas when Harper actually did the unthinkable and ran away from parliament AGAIN. By the time I got back to check the thread a whole bunch of people had already voted and there were tons of replies. The moderator did tell me to be more careful how I word my poll questions and I will try to be in the future. I won't change this one now that everyone's already voted.(and also because Harper has already prorogued anyway so what's the point of voting now?)

I think its pretty telling when you see the way people voted DESPITE the wording of the poll question. It shows me that about 30% of the population would support Harper no matter WHAT he did. They voted that Harper is KING and that we are just his lowly servants, rather than abstain from voting out of disgust at lack of choice. Also one wonders why all the Conservative partisans voted that Harper would NOT prorogue. It would seem that they believed Harper would not do something so unethical, but were proven wrong. Then the same number of people who voted that Harper would not prorogue, voted that even if cowardly Harper DID in fact prorogue, that we should just accept that unethical behavior because "harper is our King".

Scary times we live in. It really seems that the Conservative partisans are perfectly willing to sacrifice our democratic system, as long as "their guy" is the dictator that is in charge.

edited to add: lots of people have posted comically biased poll questions in here before, this one just sticks out because the prorogue actually happened so the thread got really active.

Edited January 3, 2010 by DrGreenthumb

[eyeball]

Also one wonders why all the Conservative partisans voted that Harper would NOT prorogue. It would seem that they believed Harper would not do something so unethical, but were proven wrong.

I'm certainly no Harper fan but I voted this way thinking he wouldn't be so stupid or provocative.

Given the notion that Harper actually prorogued for the purpose of stacking the Senate rather than avoiding the Afghan detainee issue does make the thread's title less relevant to the polls detailed questions but the gist of it - Government accountability and transparency check - is pretty much still spot on.

[Bryan]

Scary times we live in. It really seems that the Conservative partisans are perfectly willing to sacrifice our democratic system, as long as "their guy" is the dictator that is in charge.

No one has said anything of the sort, and nothing like that is happening.

[DrGreenthumb]

I'm certainly no Harper fan but I voted this way thinking he wouldn't be so stupid or provocative.

Given the notion that Harper actually prorogued for the purpose of stacking the Senate rather than avoiding the Afghan detainee issue does make the thread's title less relevant to the polls detailed questions but the gist of it - Government accountability and transparency check - is pretty much still spot on.

I'd say that out of all the posters on here I usually agree with eyeball the most often. I have to say though that the senate stacking notion the Conservatives have been pushing, is ridiculous. If that were the purpose of prorogueing it could have been done the day before Parliament returned instead of 2 months ahead of time. (can you even believe the Conservatives themselves are trying to claim they did this to stack the senate? Stacking the senate used to be seen as a bad thing by these people)

They did this to stop the investigation of prisoner abuse.

[Keepitsimple]

Simple... I sense your need to re-quote reflects upon your uneasiness with having your original quote applied to the greater war "cause"... you know, the one where you don't wish to apply your highlighted "Canadians are not dumb" and "Canadians have common sense" to the expressed poll that 84% want Canadian combat troops withdrawn from Afghanistan... 51% before 2011. Oh... I guess I've re-quoted as well.

Thanks for pointing it out Waldo - one of your more helpful posts. Our internet was up and down this morning and I hadn't realized that the first one posted. Let's just call it a Simple mistake.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[g_bambino]

The very same sorts of jingoistic slogans are also used to invoke an emotional attachment to the ways of the old by producing an irrational fear of change.

Indeed; if that's what was being used. I think, though, you'd be hard pressed to prove that I was doing such a thing. The jist of my point is this: you haven't proven that there's anything fundamentally wrong with our constitution, and change for the sake of change is lunacy. That's all.

[sp]

Edited January 3, 2010 by g_bambino

[eyeball]

I'd say that out of all the posters on here I usually agree with eyeball the most often. I have to say though that the senate stacking notion the Conservatives have been pushing, is ridiculous. If that were the purpose of prorogueing it could have been done the day before Parliament returned instead of 2 months ahead of time. (can you even believe the Conservatives themselves are trying to claim they did this to stack the senate? Stacking the senate used to be seen as a bad thing by these people)

They did this to stop the investigation of prisoner abuse.

You're probably right. Whatever they did they seem to have killed a few birds with the same stone.

[eyeball]

Indeed; if that's what was being used. I think, though, you'd be hard pressed to prove that I was doing such a thing. The jist of my point is this: you haven't proven that there's anything fundamentally wrong with our constitution, and change for the sake of change is lunacy. That's all.

[sp]

I wasn't trying to prove you did such a thing, I'm just pointing out that jingoism cuts both ways for much the same reason if not the goal.

I think I've made a pretty darned good case for believing our constitution is deficient in many areas. Its a good start, lets put it that way.

[jbg]

It appears mainstream Canadians are not manifesting massive indignation over the allegations of torture of Afghan detainees. It could be that Canadians would not object to proroguing Parliament if the end result was a halt the present partisan games over detainees.

I somehow doubt that mainstream Canadians give a rats' a** about how some people who want bad things for Canada and the West are treated. You make war you get war.

[capricorn]

I somehow doubt that mainstream Canadians give a rats' a** about how some people who want bad things for Canada and the West are treated.

Especially not after having seen today's coverage of the return of the bodies of the 5 Canadians who fell at the hands of those monsters in Afghanistan.

[Topaz]

The following article, says what could happen with Harper in the PMO and his yearly proroguing of Parliament can only lead to bad things for Canada. Do the Tories want to "harmonize" our government with the US next? It seems Harper wants ALL the power, this year , he will gain the power in the senate and if an elections comes and he is given a majority, then I don't think we recognize this country by the time he get done with it! No party should have so much power, power corrupts and he well on his way there now! http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100103/national/parliament_suspend

[bush_cheney2004]

The following article, says what could happen with Harper in the PMO and his yearly proroguing of Parliament can only lead to bad things for Canada. Do the Tories want to "harmonize" our government with the US next? ...

Canada was so "harmonized" many years ago....see PM Trudeau and Constitution of Canada.

[Smallc]

Hate to break it to you BC, but other countries have constitutions as well.

[Radsickle]

Most Canadians could give a rats ass what happens to those people...

Aside from missing your apostrophe, did you realize you couldn't have mis-typed your cliche any worse?

Why are you trading in rat pelts anyway?

Rat's ass

[bush_cheney2004]

Hate to break it to you BC, but other countries have constitutions as well.

They sure do...Canada was late to the game....and went shopping for a Bill of Rights oops...Charter of Rights.

[Smallc]

Your jab is off. We had a bill of rights before that.

[bush_cheney2004]

Your jab is off. We had a bill of rights before that.

Then why did Trudeau want a new jab?