Swiss Move to Stop Radicle Islam!

[Guest American Woman]

It seems some Swiss have the desire to make sure Switzerland stays true to their way of life, their culture, and they see this action as ensuring that it will happen.

"We have our civil laws here," insisted Mr Freysinger . "Banning minarets would send a clear signal that our European laws, our Swiss laws, have to be accepted. And if you want to live here, you must accept them. If you don't, then go back." link

I find the next two thoughts interesting:

"I think Swiss Muslims will be angry and bitter over this," said Reinhard Schulze, professor of Islamic Studies at Berne University. "And we know that anger and bitterness among a community can lead to radicalisation, even to militancy."

and

The Swiss government is extremely nervous about the prospect of militancy among Swiss Muslims; three cabinet ministers have already spoken out against the campaign to ban minarets.

The first sounds as if it's a threat; as if Muslims might radicalize and resort to militancy if they don't like a law that's passed.

The response by some to that possibility seems to be, 'let's do whatever they want' out of fear of radicalism and/or militancy.

[DogOnPorch]

Well, where's the logic ? There is none. It's an emotional reaction, based on xenophobia although I wouldn't go as far as your claims of racism and Islamophobia.

Can I see your badge, officer?

AW: It is indeed a threat. Or at least the threat of a threat.

[JB Globe]

I believe the word is iconoclasm (in the classic sense)...the Swiss...a reasonable people by most reports...seem to think it's happening.

Iconoclasts destroy images from their own cultural/religious background.

It's not iconoclasm when you tear down other people's cultural or religious imagery, that's something else entirely.

[Peter F]

I said iconoclasm...is their a better excuse? Some British towns have really changed in appearance re: number of minarets poking skyward. Perhaps the Swiss want to avoid this.

ah! Well thats far more understandable. They don't like seeing minarets poking skywards. Maybe even don't like to hear the faithfull being called to prayer 4-5 times a day too. The sights and sounds displease them.

...but that would have zero to do with "Swiss Move to Stop Radicle Islam!".

[Michael Hardner]

Can I see your badge, officer?

You tell me where the logic is.

So far, we have from Wulfie something like "of course we should be suspicious of them because... people are suspicious of them" and the basic unmitigated "Islam is a threat' bleating we hear all the time.

We used to have right-wing posters on here complaining about "emotional" lefties and their knee-jerk reactions. Where are they today ?

[Black Dog]

I'm not Swiss. I assume you're not Swiss. But here we have the typical PC-Police reaction to Switzerland's decision. Who says they didn't 'think it through'...you?? Let's shame Switzerland by calling them racist and Islamophobic for not wanting to be all PC-multicultural like us morally superior types in Canada.

I mean, look at how even-handed and intellectually engaging the campaign material was.

If this was about synagogues and not mosques, I think we know what word we'd be seeing used here.

AW:

Quote

"I think Swiss Muslims will be angry and bitter over this," said Reinhard Schulze, professor of Islamic Studies at Berne University. "And we know that anger and bitterness among a community can lead to radicalisation, even to militancy."

and

Quote

The Swiss government is extremely nervous about the prospect of militancy among Swiss Muslims; three cabinet ministers have already spoken out against the campaign to ban minarets.

The first sounds as if it's a threat; as if Muslims might radicalize and resort to militancy if they don't like a law that's passed.

It's not a threat: it's a acknowledgement of cause and effect. If I was a Muslim trying to integrate into Swiss society, I'd be pretty insulted, baffled and angry that my religion was being targeted for sanction in such a petty manner.

The response by some to that possibility seems to be, 'let's do whatever they want' out of fear of radicalism and/or militancy.

There's lots of options available other than doing something stupid and doing nothing at all.

[JB Globe]

Who says they didn't 'think it through'...you??

Because their position is completely illogical - there is no factual basis to their claims about the Swiss Muslim community. Notice how in all the "yes" side's campaign information there is an utter lack of statistics on things like: the amount of women who wear burkas/niqabs/hijabs in Switzerland, how prevalent is Sharia Law, Wahabi money funding mosques, etc. - that's because the actual reality does not match up to their perception of reality: Swiss Muslims are very well integrated, law-abiding and peaceful.

Also consider that so far no one has been able to connect the dots between the proposal and the goal. No one has been able to demonstrate how banning an architectural element common to religious buildings of a specific religion, will prevent radicalism within that religion. People just keep repeating the aims of the law without explaining how it works in the reality.

And there are plenty of people in Switzerland who are highly against this ban, I'm sure they've never felt more embarrassed in all their life for their country.

[DogOnPorch]

Bwwwahhh...hahhah!

Buttons have been pushed.

Ahhh...so many hippies...not enough non-medical marijuana. Much like Israel, why not go all Rachel Cory on their Alpine azzes? Stand in front of that bulldozer.

[Black Dog]

Bwwwahhh...hahhah!

Buttons have been pushed.

Ahhh...so many hippies...not enough non-medical marijuana. Much like Israel, why not go all Rachel Cory on their Alpine azzes? Stand in front of that bulldozer.

Very clever and original.

[DogOnPorch]

Very clever and original.

Why thank-you, Black Dog.

[Black Dog]

Why thank-you, Black Dog.

Go f**k yourself.

[naomiglover]

Bwwwahhh...hahhah!

Buttons have been pushed.

Ahhh...so many hippies...not enough non-medical marijuana. Much like Israel, why not go all Rachel Cory on their Alpine azzes? Stand in front of that bulldozer.

You are a child.

[JB Globe]

Bwwwahhh...hahhah!

Buttons have been pushed.

Ahhh...so many hippies...not enough non-medical marijuana. Much like Israel, why not go all Rachel Cory on their Alpine azzes? Stand in front of that bulldozer.

How old are you?

[JB Globe]

Bwwwahhh...hahhah!

Buttons have been pushed.

Ahhh...so many hippies...not enough non-medical marijuana. Much like Israel, why not go all Rachel Cory on their Alpine azzes? Stand in front of that bulldozer.

Some of us are good debaters.

Some of us are funny.

Some of us are even good trolls.

You sir, are none of those things.

[DogOnPorch]

Oh dear...I've upset the PC police.

[Guest American Woman]

We don't always agree on the issues, DoP, but I've always respected you, so I have to say that the comment about Rachel Corrie was beneath you. She died tragically standing up for something she believed in, and whether you agree with her cause or not, she lost her life standing up for others.

[Black Dog]

Oh dear...I've upset the PC police.

I love it when morons self-identify. Makes managing one's ignore list a breeze.

[DogOnPorch]

We don't always agree on the issues, DoP, but I've always respected you, so I have to say that the comment about Rachel Corrie was beneath you. She died tragically standing up for something she believed in, and whether you agree with her cause or not, she lost her life standing up for others.

Perhaps...but there it is. If these folks feel so strongly that Switzerland has crossed THEIR moral line in the sand, they can go to Switzerland and protest. Thus my Rachel Corrie comment fits...and stands. That being said, I respect your opinion more than most here, so point taken.

Black Dog: You're foul mouthed and of no consequence to me. Ignore away.

[M.Dancer]

She died tragically standing up for something she believed in,

I thought she was lying down at the time?

and whether you agree with her cause or not, she lost her life standing up for others.

My mistake, she was sitting...

"Smith, who witnessed Sunday's incident, said it began when Corrie sat down in front of the bulldozer. He said the driver scooped her up with a pile of earth, dumped her on the ground and ran over her twice."[

Lots of people die standing up for others. Big Flocking Deal. That in itself doesn't make someone a saint, or even worthy of respect. The 911 hijackers died standing up for others...are they somehow sacrosanct? A few weeks ago, in the same place that Corrie was sitting up for others, a few Terrorists accidentally blew themselves up. They too dies standing up, or in their case, walking for others.

Rachel Corrie was a naive idiot and she died precisely because of that reason.

Edited December 2, 2009 by M.Dancer

[Black Dog]

If these folks feel so strongly that Switzerland has crossed THEIR moral line in the sand, they can go to Switzerland and protest. Thus my Rachel Corrie comment fits...and stands. That being said, I respect your opinion more than most here, so point taken.

Black Dog: You're foul mouthed and of no consequence to me. Ignore away.

So you not only don't understand the issue, you don't understand how a discussion board works. Does it take effort to be that dumb or is it a natural process?

As for my foul "mouth", you're living proof that abstention from obscenity is no indication of intelligence or wit.

[M.Dancer]

I get bored very easily.

[ironstone]

So you're ok with emotional reactions to complex issues ? You don't think things need to be though through reasonably, and that we should just react ?

You'd better switch sides in the Global Warming debate then.

"Global warming" was too specific so they changed it to "climate change".

[M.Dancer]

"Global warming" was too specific so they changed it to "climate change".

That's because when they polled the citizens in Winterpeg in January about Global Warming, they said yes.

[DogOnPorch]

I get bored very easily.

Have you tried building a 9m tower on your house? See what city council thinks about the plan...

[M.Dancer]

Have you tried building a 9m tower on your house? See what city council thinks about the plan...

About 10 years ago this fellow buys a house on the edge of Forest Hill near the Deer Park United Church. He took them to court to end their bell ringing for Sunday mass, claiming among other things, it disturbed his Sunday mornings.

It was touch and go, but he lost and they still ring their bells for morning mass.

For the sake of that dickwad, a minaret with a mullah singing out a few times a day to call the faithful to prayer would get my vote.