Situation In Afghanistan

[wulf42]

You know the more you hear about this kind of stuff the more one thinks there is no hope for these people, they are medieval in their ways and just don't seem reachable! It is one thing for Nato to try to help these people but the so called "Afghan Army" seems useless and does nothing to at least try to protect their own citizens and the sad thing is who knows who Loyalty is where.Maybe it is wise for us to pull out in 2011 bring our soldiers home and defend our own borders the best we can against Al Qaeda and just leave them to dwell as cavemen because honestly anyone who can do this to their own people is hopeless and will never be able to form a normal society. Best thing Nato could try is to place the young girls and children to other Muslim Countries like Saudi Arabia if they would take them even bring some of them here and leave the Taliban to roam Afghanistan like the filthy rabid dogs they are .....Iraq was a much more stable country while under Saddam, as evil as the guy was he ruled by an iron hand and seemed to keep the country in check and terrorist's were not able to operate freely as they do now. Maybe dictatorship works for them in the middle east so leave them to it! This article shows just how hopeless the situation is.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/11/23/afghan-schools.html

[Sir Bandelot]

Maybe dictatorship works for them in the middle east so leave them to it!

I agree. Whatever made us think that democracy is the best thing for people in every circumstance? I think democracy only works with a well educated, civil society, one that has minimal extremism.

Muslim clerics have been teaching that democracy is inherently un-islamic. Got that, it is an offence to their God to accept democracy as the political system.

[Moonlight Graham]

Disturbing.

Important for us to remember that Afghanistan is one of the poorest & least developed countries in the world. In 2009 it holds the 2nd-lowest ranking among the 182 countries listed on the UN's HDI (Human Development Index), which ranks countries based on factors like adult literacy rates, life expectancy, income (GDP-per-capita) etc. Rankings: http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

In my opinion, Afghanistan more resembles a sub-Saharan African country than most of the other middle-eastern countries in many regards. It's mostly tribal, rural, it's woefully undeveloped and poor, and its elite are corrupt druglords/warlords.

The sad thing is, within a couple of decades from the time NATO leaves, even if we were to kill every member of the Taliban, whatever democratic government we help establish will likely be ousted in a coup (possibly even by the Afghan army we are helping to train) and replaced by a corrupt authoritarian regime. If no coup, then a "democratically elected" authoritarian regime is likely to emerge, or something just as bad. It may even come to be as bad as the Taliban were, who knows.

The problems in Afghanistan are beyond immense. Way more complex a situation than Iraq. i don't think we should leave Afghanistan, but i do think we should end our military occupation there, send a few bombs al-Qaeda's way if they are ever to establish any kind of facilities in Afghanistan or Pakistan, and focus our efforts on trying to help the Afghans develop their country the way they wish (within reason obviously). Help them build infrastructure, hospitals, schools etc. But this is all if the Afghans want us there in the first place. They are a country well known for their rabid self-determination and resentment of foreign occupation.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Moonlight Graham

[Gabriel]

The dark part of me within agrees with much of what all of you have said, but the optimist in me wants to agree with George Bush's position that freedom and democracy is God's gift to the world. I feel like my opinion on this issue changes every day. One day I'll throw my hands up in the air and just think to myself that the country is doomed to savagery and barbarism due to the prevalence of sickening cultural traditions. The next day I hold out hope and see an inspiring story on TV or read a hopeful anecdote online. I sure hope there IS a good possibility of Afghanistan and Iraq working towards strong democratic and free societies over time, though. It would be an amazing story in history.

With respect to the story referenced in the OP, I sure hope that these schoolchildren, teachers, and other stakeholders in education are alloted reasonable protection by our military and allies from Taliban terrorists and other filth. Especially given the fact that these attacks are not new and seem to be growing in frequency and volume. If this security threat isn't being addressed responsibly by our government and our allies, then THAT is a shameful situation that should receive more media attention. I'd like to see Ignatieff or another opposition idiot achieve a little redemption by raising this issue! Unfortunately, the opposition again wastes time by droning on about a non-priority like abuse allegation during question period. If Ignatieff really wanted to take a position that would resonate with Canadians on an emotional level he would criticize the government (fair or unfair) for not doing more to protect Afghans that Canadians WILL care about - young students. Instead, he'd prefer to be an advocate for those that many Canadians have little concern for - Taliban detainees. For the Liberal operatives out there - that advice is on the house. On the other hand, the Conservatives could emphasize this issue and treat it as a priority, and then build support for its policies by showing improvements towards this problem resulting from governmental actions.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Gabriel

[wulf42]

With respect to the story referenced in the OP, I sure hope that these schoolchildren, teachers, and other stakeholders in education are alloted reasonable protection by our military and allies from Taliban terrorists and other filth. Especially given the fact that these attacks are not new and seem to be growing in frequency and volume. If this security threat isn't being addressed responsibly by our government and our allies, then THAT is a shameful situation that should receive more media attention. I'd like to see Ignatieff or another opposition idiot achieve a little redemption by raising this issue! Unfortunately, the opposition again wastes time by droning on about a non-priority like abuse allegation during question period. If Ignatieff really wanted to take a position that would resonate with Canadians on an emotional level he would criticize the government (fair or unfair) for not doing more to protect Afghans that Canadians WILL care about - young students. Instead, he'd prefer to be an advocate for those that many Canadians have little concern for - Taliban detainees. For the Liberal operatives out there - that advice is on the house. On the other hand, the Conservatives could emphasize this issue and treat it as a priority, and then build support for its policies by showing improvements towards this problem resulting from governmental actions.

So true....the locals see these attacks growing and they likely feel that there is no point in any of it, they have seen the Russians come and go in defeat, now Nato is trying to help these people but the main problem is and always will be in these kind of conflicts is if countries make the decision to go to war it has to be total war! In Afghanistan many of the Opium crops are untouched but yet that is the main source of funding for the Taliban..we should destroy them completely but yet we don t because we might offend someone! Sound a little like Vietnam? the Allies won in WW2 because they did what had to be done ..holding nothing back! but Nato doesn t have the stomach nor does the population of Nato Countries for that type of war...so victory is impossible IMO.

Edited November 24, 2009 by wulf42

[Oleg Bach]

We went to Afghanistan because the American corporate elite that are part of the military industrial complex insisted that their counterparts that have influence over Canadian government assist in the continued enrichment of parasites envolved in the weapons industry. Now we have regrets because no one wants to commit living breathing young human beings to die while operating said military equipment. It's a conundrum..IF you don't have someone to drive the armoured vehicle - it is useless and worthless...I guess if they could they would start to draft young men and woman to die for money..but that would be to obvious and they would not want to get caught murdering people - after all they are respectable.

[GostHacked]

So true....the locals see these attacks growing and they likely feel that there is no point in any of it, they have seen the Russians come and go in defeat, now Nato is trying to help these people but the main problem is and always will be in these kind of conflicts is if countries make the decision to go to war it has to be total war! In Afghanistan many of the Opium crops are untouched but yet that is the main source of funding for the Taliban..we should destroy them completely but yet we don t because we might offend someone! Sound a little like Vietnam? the Allies won in WW2 because they did what had to be done ..holding nothing back! but Nato doesn t have the stomach nor does the population of Nato Countries for that type of war...so victory is impossible IMO.

I still have a hard time beleiving that the Taliban would use opium sales to fund their cause. They erradicated opium growth when the Taliban was in power. And now it is the opium capital of the planet. It does not make sense to me.

[Oleg Bach]

I still have a hard time beleiving that the Taliban would use opium sales to fund their cause. They erradicated opium growth when the Taliban was in power. And now it is the opium capital of the planet. It does not make sense to me.

No synthetic opiate can match the power of the real thing - thus the real thing is valuable - withing the medical community - and on the street.

[M.Dancer]

I still have a hard time beleiving that the Taliban would use opium sales to fund their cause. They erradicated opium growth when the Taliban was in power. And now it is the opium capital of the planet. It does not make sense to me.

Welocme to real politik.

They were paid to wipe out opium fields....now opium pays.

[Oleg Bach]

Welocme to real politik.

They were paid to wipe out opium fields....now opium pays.

I bow to know one my friend. What I do know is that there are over lords all over the planet and they are powerful but not very bright. When was the last time a wicked sob's life ended well..? When was the last time this insane sect actually did something worth while other than gather wealth and power and attempt to dominate intelligent people - who in the end always out last the nasty ones. People bow to money- money never bows to them..there is no real mutual benefit with in this co-operative structure...a poor man may invite you to supper and feed you - These over lords just PROMISE..to feed you bread that never comes ---- The definition of "lord" is literally keeper of the bread - not horder of the bread!

[Moonlight Graham]

We went to Afghanistan because the American corporate elite that are part of the military industrial complex insisted that their counterparts that have influence over Canadian government assist in the continued enrichment of parasites envolved in the weapons industry. Now we have regrets because no one wants to commit living breathing young human beings to die while operating said military equipment. It's a conundrum..IF you don't have someone to drive the armoured vehicle - it is useless and worthless...I guess if they could they would start to draft young men and woman to die for money..but that would be to obvious and they would not want to get caught murdering people - after all they are respectable.

That's a significant part of it, but not the whole story. Surely, there are those in gov't in the U.S. and Canada who actually see Afghanistan as a security problem. The military industrial complex and securing oil reserves just makes this decision to invade so much easier to make.

[Oleg Bach]

The rich and powerful get a kick out of buy a piece of really good art for next to nothing..It gives them a sense of superiourity over the intelligent artist..that they screwed him - thus they are smarter..they are not smarter they are just richer. This mentality is exactly what is happening in Afhanistan - why did they not simply go in at the begining and give the average Afghani a fair economic shake? I would say because they are CHEAP, crude and brutal..why do we allow the brutes to run the show? Afghanistan and Iraq could have been conquered peacefully - but noooooo...these bored sob's wanted to taste blood and steal.

[naomiglover]

I still have a hard time beleiving that the Taliban would use opium sales to fund their cause. They erradicated opium growth when the Taliban was in power. And now it is the opium capital of the planet. It does not make sense to me.

That's correct GostHacked.

It has mostly been the Northern Alliance (Karzai group) who have pushed for opium production.

[eyeball]

Situation In Afghanistan Hopeless

Told you so...years ago.

[naomiglover]

The dark part of me within agrees with much of what all of you have said, but the optimist in me wants to agree with George Bush's position that freedom and democracy is God's gift to the world.

We're not God and we will not be able to force them this gift wrapped in weapons.

Things will shape themselves in due time. The only non-destructive and productive thing we can do is to promote human rights and trade responsibly. Trading is the lifeline of the world today and it holds a lot of power.

Just look at how far China has come in the past few decades.

Edited November 24, 2009 by naomiglover

[Army Guy]

We're not God and we will not be able to force them this gift wrapped in weapons.

Are you saying that the majority of Afghans don't want this gift, or just not from NATO...

Things will shape themselves in due time. The only non-destructive and productive thing we can do is to promote human rights and trade responsibly. Trading is the lifeline of the world today and it holds a lot of power.

So your alright with sitting back here in Canada, with all our freedoms, wealth, and "gifts" and do nothing but watch, Yes we can give them leasons on Human rights, and we can teach them how to trade responsabilty....but niether will put food on thier tables now, nor will it provide for the families now...I know it is hard to understand as Canadians as we have so much, Very few of us understand what is like to live in Afghan and the struggles and sacrifices they make just to make it through the day....And while we have some people here in Canada, that go hungry , and homeless, etc etc...they would be considered well off in Afghan....

I am postive that if you showed up in Afghan and all you had to offer was what you mentioned....you to would be on a plane , or finding yourself with a bag over your head, awaiting your fate....

Just look at how far China has come in the past few decades.

So waiting is your answer....I wonder what your comments would be if you where in Afghan right now, had'nt eaten in days, slept on a dirt floor, living under the constant death threats of terrorist....would you want the west to wait...until something sorted it self out....or would you want someone to do something....

Some times a gift, our gift needs to be delivered with the force of arms...so those that need it get it...and those terrorist scumbags well they get what they deserve as well....you may not like it...but that is reality , it is how this world operates...we did not invent the rules, they did....

[Oleg Bach]

China is not a good example of where we want to go- China is a good example of our elite selling us out for profit..it's a good example of tribal disloyality on a domestic level. There will be no success in Afghanistan militarily. It must be done in good faith ecomically to ensure a good out come at this point - we have bloodied each others noses and out of the violence has come a certain understanding and respect - NOW is the time to get on with some useful and sound ideas as far as economy - I don't want to hear "we don't negotiate with terrorists" - once a person has food on the table and some security - the terrorists are out of a job.

[eyeball]

China is not a good example of where we want to go- China is a good example of our elite selling us out for profit..

I'd say China is a very good example of where our powerful and wealthy elites want to take us.

[Oleg Bach]

I'd say China is a very good example of where our powerful and wealthy elites want to take us.

Watching a documentary on China - they had a thousand workers sitting like machines dressed in yellow bee like outfits - they all looked drugged..and were punching out crapple grumits...They may as well have had IV drips and diapers on..any elite that wants to engineer millions of bio-machines out of what were once beautiful human beings is NOT elite - they are our inferiours.

[naomiglover]

Are you saying that the majority of Afghans don't want this gift, or just not from NATO...

Majority of Afghans want the gift, but not the way it's being done, which has been anything but a gift. The tactics we have implemented have brought more negatives than positives.

The problem with most of us here in the West is that we have a low attention span and look at the immediate without looking at the whole picture and without considering the history of each situation.

The Taliban came to power after we empowered them.

So your alright with sitting back here in Canada, with all our freedoms, wealth, and "gifts" and do nothing but watch, Yes we can give them leasons on Human rights, and we can teach them how to trade responsabilty....but niether will put food on thier tables now, nor will it provide for the families now...I know it is hard to understand as Canadians as we have so much, Very few of us understand what is like to live in Afghan and the struggles and sacrifices they make just to make it through the day....And while we have some people here in Canada, that go hungry , and homeless, etc etc...they would be considered well off in Afghan....

I am postive that if you showed up in Afghan and all you had to offer was what you mentioned....you to would be on a plane , or finding yourself with a bag over your head, awaiting your fate...

So waiting is your answer....I wonder what your comments would be if you where in Afghan right now, had'nt eaten in days, slept on a dirt floor, living under the constant death threats of terrorist....would you want the west to wait...until something sorted it self out....or would you want someone to do something....

Some times a gift, our gift needs to be delivered with the force of arms...so those that need it get it...and those terrorist scumbags well they get what they deserve as well....you may not like it...but that is reality , it is how this world operates...we did not invent the rules, they did....

You can't force freedom onto people and onto a culture. Certainly not in a complicated culture like that of Afghanistan's. Our meddling, especially with the failed tactics we've used, are not working and have not worked.

[Army Guy]

Majority of Afghans want the gift, but not the way it's being done, which has been anything but a gift. The tactics we have implemented have brought more negatives than positives.

I'll agree that a large majority of Afghans do want peace, and freedoms not available under Taliban rule. That same majority also don't like the incent casualities that are produced when engaging thier enemies...and nobody in the same postion does, however, in order to accomplish that tasking and the very nature of insurgent warfare those Casualities are very hard to control. But until someone comes up with another viaable solution, we will have to stick with this game plan....Sitting back and hoping they will sort this out themselfs is not an option, it helps no one, and we are complict in those taliban crimes for doing just that....

The problem with most of us here in the West is that we have a low attention span and look at the immediate without looking at the whole picture and without considering the history of each situation.

Your right Canadians are a fast food , fast service people and if we can not have it in 30 mins we want it for free....rebuilding a nation can not be held to the same standards, it takes time lots of time...So if we knew this going in to this project why in the hell did we stick our hands up and volunteer for it....as for the history if your suggesting that it is a mission imposiable , then i say bullshit...Canadians have a long history of accomplishing the imposiable....

The Taliban came to power after we empowered them.

Not true, re read the history of the Taliban.

You can't force freedom onto people and onto a culture. Certainly not in a complicated culture like that of Afghanistan's. Our meddling, especially with the failed tactics we've used, are not working and have not worked.

Would you say Germany was a complicated culture perhaps Japan, i'd say i record of rebuilding nations is pretty good, if given the time and effort to do it properly....But then again we want results yesterday....and yet NATO has made progress , large steps towards peace, but they count for what...nothing...

[Oleg Bach]

The approach should from the begining been about disarming the nation - finding out who was selling arms and attacking these small groups whether they be in the middle east - Europe or even America or Canada..I remember during the Iraq Iran conflict...I personally knew an Canadian arms dealer who justified his actions as ones that saved lives..."I armed both sides" He was from what I gather supplying arms to the IRA also - the Canadian authorities knew of this and did nothing - why? What the heck - no one bothered Mulroney and that little German guy either..oh well.

[Oleg Bach]

Religious leaders all over the world are hard core atheists. Muslim - Jew - Christian and so on...it's the little God believing peeps that are motivated and moblized to do the evil bidding of men hidding behind the guise of religon and God - we could get rid of these bastards if we in unison stated that they were frauds..and by doing so religious wars would end - NONE of them adhere to goodness and GOD - if they did we would see evidence of this...no evidence exists in regards to these war lords that send believers off to die - God is about life not death!

[eyeball]

Watching a documentary on China - they had a thousand workers sitting like machines dressed in yellow bee like outfits - they all looked drugged..and were punching out crapple grumits...They may as well have had IV drips and diapers on..any elite that wants to engineer millions of bio-machines out of what were once beautiful human beings is NOT elite - they are our inferiours.

China's leadership style combined with the west's corporate culture is the likeliest precursor I can think of to something like the evolution of the Borg...resistance may be futile but that's no excuse for not trying.

Apparently China is helping us and our other super-ally in Ethiopia. China is providing monitoring-and-control software so the Ethiopian government can control the people, the US is supplying the usual and I guess we're there to ensure the whole operation has a nice moral shine to it. I mean if Canada is involved it must be just...right?

...Ethiopia is strategically important. It is the second most populous country in sub-Saharan African, and a key U.S. ally in the Horn of Africa, where Ethiopian troops have repeatedly intervened in Somalia. And it is one of the biggest recipients of Canadian foreign aid, with $90-million donated by Canada in 2007 alone....

....The International Crisis Group, an independent think tank based in Brussels, says the Ethiopian government is controlling its population with neighbourhood committees, informers, media controls and high-tech surveillance.

“Thanks to Chinese electronic monitoring-and-control software, the government is able to block most opposition electronic communications when it desires,” the group said in a recent report.

Source

God I'm so proud to be a Canadian.

Edited November 25, 2009 by eyeball

[Moonlight Graham]

I'd say China is a very good example of where our powerful and wealthy elites want to take us.

Not responding to you in particular, but China is not possible in Afghanistan, not in the next few decades or so at the very least.

China & India were able to able to rise up economically because they had basic infrastructure in place and tons of cheap labour available before global manufacturers came calling. Afghanistan is not industrialized like China was a few decades ago. Countries can't just build a few factories and *POOF* we've got some cheap manufacturing going on in Afghanistan.