Afghan prisoner abuse trial

[Army Guy]

The Canadian military secretly stopped transferring prisoners to Afghanistan’s government in November after Canadian monitors found evidence that they were being abused and tortured.

So what we have here is this fact the Military did move them after alleged evidence was found, i say alleged because nothing has been proven that abuse happened....and now i'm sure one of these prisoners will complain about the 3 rd place they are detained....until we run out of options...

And the headlines read coming to a major hotel complex near you, "Taliban prisoners" , yes scumbags and scally wags who's only goal in life is to see us infidels pay for what we've done...under they're new terms of Prisoner rights programs afforded by the some of Canadians , they have to be back in these 5 star hotels before mid night....the government has cautioned the people to stay hidden in thier homes until after mid night.

[JaysFan]

Yes is does claim differently...it claims that the Liberals are the ones who started the prisoner transfer to the afghans and that the claims of abuse originate from the Taliban.

It also claims that 2 years ago the Conservatives changed the handover system put in place by the Liberals.

Now what was your assinine statement again? Sorry, it was quite forgetful...

tsk tsk tsk...

More spin, deflecting blame and unaccountability from the sheep of the Conservative party which refuses to be accountable for their actions. Edited November 20, 2009 by JaysFan

[DrGreenthumb]

It seems pretty hard to believe that a control freak like Harper wouldn't have known about the torture long ago. It seems likely that Harper and Mkay have been involved in a cover up. Its too bad that the Conservatives have disgraced our military.

[JaysFan]

It seems pretty hard to believe that a control freak like Harper wouldn't have known about the torture long ago. It seems likely that Harper and Mkay have been involved in a cover up. Its too bad that the Conservatives have disgraced our military.

100% correct.

But that's Conservative accountability for you..

[M.Dancer]

More spin, deflecting blame and unaccountability from the sheep of the Conservative party which refuses to be accountable for their actions.

That's not true about accountability at all. I think the Conservative deserve every bit of praise they get for changing the system the Liberals put in place.

Funny how the Liberlas aren't lining up about reports of prisoner abuse between the years 2002-2006....

[M.Dancer]

It seems pretty hard to believe that a control freak like Harper wouldn't have known about the torture long ago. It seems likely that Harper and Mkay have been involved in a cover up. Its too bad that the Conservatives have disgraced our military.

Even harder to believe a control freak like Chretian didn't know about any abuse either....

[Army Guy]

The issue with Dresden right from the day it happened down to today isn't that it wasn't at some point a legitimate target, it's that by February 1945 it wasn't. The Allies knew that Germany had only a matter of months. Dresden did not contribute to the victory, because the victory was already imminent. Just two months later the tattered remnants of the German Army were fighting the Soviets in the streets of Berlin.

Apparently the Allieds felt diferently, while i'm sure at this time the allieds where very confident that the Nazi regime was in it's last spasmisms....it was far from finsihed...a couple of months of combat on 3 fronts takes a few troops to accomplish....and could have turned out some what differently if things had changed....and to prevent that and speed up the destroying of the NAZI empire it was decided to hit drsden, berlin and serveral other cities....that is made very clear in the sources i've provided you...

The US Air Force Historical Division wrote a report in response to the international concern about the bombing, which was classified until December 1978.[30] This said that there were 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the city supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid.[31] According to the report, there were aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); an optical goods factory (Zeiss Ikon AG); as well as factories producing electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch and Sterzel AG); gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke); and electric gauges (Gebruder Bassler). It also said there were barracks, and hutted camps, and a munitions storage depot.[32]

The USAF report also states that two of Dresden's traffic routes were of military importance: north-south from Germany to Czechoslovakia, and east-west along the central European uplands.[33] The city was at the junction of the Berlin-Prague-Vienna railway line, as well as the Munich-Breslau, and Hamburg-Leipzig.[33] Colonel Harold E. Cook, a US POW held in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yard the night before the attacks, later said that "I saw with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars loaded with supplies supporting and transporting German logistics towards the east to meet the Russians."[34]

An RAF memo issued to airmen on the night of the attack said:

“ Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester is also the largest unbombed builtup area the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westward and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium, not only to give shelter to workers, refugees, and troops alike, but to house the administrative services displaced from other areas. At one time well known for its china, Dresden has developed into an industrial city of first-class importance ... The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front ... and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.[35]

17. The Allied-Russian interchanges that had begun in the closing months of 1944 and had become, with the passing of time, more frequent and more specific, culminated in the ARGONAUT Conferences of January-February 1945. On 4 February, President Roosevelt, Prime Minister Churchill, and Marshal Stalin, together with their foreign secretaries and military advisors, assembled at Yalta to present definitive and specific plans, and requests, for bringing the war against Germany to a victorious conclusion, by the summer of 1945, if possible (Other considerations involved in the ARGONAUT deliberations are not pertinent or relevant here). At this meeting, Marshal Stalin asked Army General Antonov, Deputy Chief of the Russian General Staff, to outline to the Conference the situation existing on the Eastern Front and to describe Russia’s plans for subsequent operations. At the conclusion of his extended presentation, General Antonov made three specific requests for Allied assistance to the Russians: 27

My link

Our wishes are:

a. To speed up the advance of the Allied troops on the Western Front, for which the present situation is very favorable: (1) To defeat the Germans on the Eastern Front. (2) To defeat the German groupings which have advanced into the Ardennes. (3) The weakening of the German forces in the West in connection with the shifting of their reserves to the East (It is desirable to begin the advance during the first half of February).

b. By air action on communications hinder the enemy from carrying out the shifting of his troops to the East from the Western Front, from Norway, and from Italy (In particular, to paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig).

c. Not permit the enemy to remove his forces from Italy.

18. It was the specific Russian request for bombing communications, coupled with the emphasis on forcing troops to shift from west to east through communications centers, that led to the Allied bombings of Dresden. The structure of the Berlin-Leipzig-Dresden railway complex, as outlined in paragraph 8 above, required that Dresden, as well as Berlin and Leipzig, be bombed. Therefore Allied air authorities concluded that the bombing of Dresden would have to be undertaken (1) in order to implement strategic objectives, of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians, and now agreed upon at the highest levels of governmental authority, and (2) to respond to the specific Russian request presented to the Allies by General Antonov to “paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig.”

My linkwww.airforcehistory.hq.

Germany was finished once they failed to capitalize on the initial successes of the Ardennes Offensive (and I'd argue that even if the Germans had won the Battle of the Bulge, it probably would have bought them no more than a few months, the Soviets will still driving head long towards them from the East).

Germany was still a very capable enemy, with the means to inflict damage to the allieds...for the allieds just to throw up thier arms and say, they're finished , we won't attack any more would allow germany the time and space to reorg, and fight some more....while Germany may of been down on one knee it was far from dying on it's own....

[waldo]

Your selective self-serving double-standard continues – you can’t claim the moral “high-ground” while tarnishing it… regardless of what little respect you have for the Afghan peoples. The average Afghan citizen most assuredly recognizes the double-standard you’re projecting, if nothing more than in basic terms of right vs. wrong evidenced through civilian deaths and detainee abuse.

The average illiterate Afghan raised in an extremist culture comprehends philosophical double standards between Canada and our enemies that you claim exist based on CBC reports of allegations of detainee abuse at the hands of Afghan security forces? Can you stretch and twist reality any further? Give me a break.

There's no philosophical underpinning to the most basal level "right vs. wrong" dichotomy. The average Afghan most assuredly attaches a "right from wrong" designation to civilian deaths and detainee abuse... winning the "hearts and minds", one step at a time.

It’s clear you know nothing of how the Red Cross investigates – the rigour it follows. – and the recognition/esteem its reports carry. That safety you speak to is, itself, compromised by the waning positive perceptions of the local populace…

I'm not about to believe anything you say about anything. How do you know the Red Cross isn't already involved? How do you know the Red Cross hasn't already made improvements to the way the Afghan security forces manage detainees?

But you'll just blindly assume/accept ICRC involvement existed... it's clear you know nothing in this regard - following in step with former Conservative Defence Minister O'Connor who had to issue a correction/apology to that end: Red Cross contradicts Ottawa on detainees

The International Committee of the Red Cross confirmed Wednesday that it has no role in monitoring the Canada-Afghanistan detainee-transfer agreement, in direct contradiction to assurances Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor has made to the House of Commons.

Given the repeated occasions you’ve denigrated the Afghan peoples and their country, you’re clearly in a fragile position attempting to suggest a concern for their welfare. Perhaps educate yourself… yes, there are degrees of Taliban – unlike the Taliban in Pakistan, predominantly; those in Afghanistan are not affiliated with Al Qaeda. The Taliban being negotiated with… those considered for Karzai government positions are considered “moderates” within the Taliban ranks.

Yes, yes, how rude of me to condemn a culture that sells off children, that denies education to girls, that support suicide bombings in busy bazaars. How dare I denigrate this wonderful and distinct culture. That being said, I am not equating savagery and barbarism (terms you are afraid to use when describing the sick cultural traditions that we see in Afghanistan) to the entirety of Afghan culture. Certainly there are segments of the Afghan population that know that there is a better way to conduct themselves.

Perhaps the "moderate Taliban" you speak of are the same Taliban that supported and passed a law legalizing rape? The same Taliban that refuse to implement a minimum age for sexual consent? Your coddling of animals isn't an endearing quality.

How's that nation building working out for you.. so far? The level of corruption with your puppet Karzai's government is not the Taliban... the required support to pass that law did not come from the Taliban. The call to have the "non-terrorist associating" Taliban return to their homeland is coming from the current Afghan government... not from the Taliban. Whether you accept a "moderate" tag... whether a moderate tag makes any sense to a "Western mindset"... that tag exists and means something within today's Afghan populace/society.

You’re getting way more play than justified by your inability to support your views with anything other than vitriolic statements… perhaps you could further your cause by elaborating on your last sentence. Just how, exactly, is a Taliban presence within the Karzai government… “extreme leftism in action”?

Let me spell it out for you - extreme leftists believe that animals can be negotiated with. They believe that animals can be made into humans. So they give animals seats in the government. That is why we see Taliban represented in the new Afghan government. The enemy has legitimized itself thanks to folks like you that attach labels like "moderate" to extremists/fundamentalists. Insanity.

Any legitimacy the Taliban have... comes from within Afghanistan. Moderate label attachments originate from within Afghanistan. Certainly, your labeling of Karzai's government as "extreme leftist", questionably frames your position/arguments... indeed.

[eyeball]

Peter McKay said on TV this morning that the issue of veracity regarding Colvin's reports is not a personal attack. I suppose this stands to reason given that Colvin is apparently a highly respected diplomat who received awards for his work in Afghanistan and was given a promotion to Washington.

In light of the completely discredited reports that someone as respected as Colvin produced, I'm trying to imagine what exactly constitutes a source that's more credible than Colvin's. McKay also says that when the government did receive more credible reports of torture that it acted on them to ensure torture wasn't taking place.

If Peter McKay expects to be taken seriously on this he should provide some examples of what a credible report really looks like.

Edited November 20, 2009 by eyeball

[naomiglover]

a lot of innocent people."

Richard Colvin, former senior diplomat for Canada in Afghanistan, appearing before a parliamentary committee on Nov. 18 2009

Oh, Canada.

Edited November 20, 2009 by naomiglover

[eyeball]

So if Canada is charged with war crimes and found guilty who does the time?

[JaysFan]

a lot of innocent people."

Richard Colvin, former senior diplomat for Canada in Afghanistan, appearing before a parliamentary committee on Nov. 18 2009

Oh, Canada.

To clarify your statement somewhat, Canada's Conservative government led by PM Stephen Harper knowingly allowed for that to takr place.

[JaysFan]

So if Canada is charged with war crimes and found guilty who does the time?

The person(s) at the top who was in charge and permitted it.

In this case that would be the current PM and his Ministers of Defence and Foreign Affairs.

[Keepitsimple]

Putting aside the fact that he was using second and third hand information - some/much of it directly from the Taliban - Colvin lost a lot of credibility when he said that every one of the detainees were tortured. That doesn't make any sense at all.

[eyeball]

Putting aside the fact that he was using second and third hand information - some/much of it directly from the Taliban - Colvin lost a lot of credibility when he said that every one of the detainees were tortured. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Making sense of anything will never be the same now that the standard for evidence seems to be first hand experience.

[M.Dancer]

To clarify your statement somewhat, Canada's Conservative government led by PM Stephen Harper knowingly allowed for that to takr place.

AS shown by waldo's link to the NYT in thread # 5 on afghan detainees, it was the Liberals who started it.

Never the less, none of this is proven, it is only hearsay.

[M.Dancer]

a lot of innocent people."

Richard Colvin, former senior diplomat for Canada in Afghanistan, appearing before a parliamentary committee on Nov. 18 2009

Oh, Canada.

Are 3 active threads on the same subject helpful?

[M.Dancer]

Making sense of anything will never be the same now that the standard for evidence seems to be first hand experience.

Where have you been for the last 200 years. It seems that the cringing left would like the standards for evidence to be weakened so that hearsay has equal standing to eye witness...and that accused and alledged equals guilty.

[naomiglover]

Are 3 active threads on the same subject helpful?

You should be happy that I'm giving you another place where you can shrug off human rights violations.

*edit -

Oh yea, before you foam at the mouth, I should say, "alleged" human rights violations.

Edited November 20, 2009 by naomiglover

[JaysFan]

AS shown by waldo's link to the NYT in thread # 5 on afghan detainees, it was the Liberals who started it.

What you're quick to brush over though is the fact that the Conservatives under Stephen Harper were in power and responsible for the cover up and concealment of their complicit role in this.

[Moonbox]

You should be happy that I'm giving you another place where you can shrug off human rights violations.

*edit -

Oh yea, before you foam at the mouth, I should say, "alleged" human rights violations.

That's what they are. They're 'alleged'. To say that Harper knew about it is a pretty tall claim as well.

This is going nowhere.

[M.Dancer]

What you're quick to brush over though is the fact that the Conservatives under Stephen Harper were in power and responsible for the cover up and concealment of their complicit role in this.

So comlicit the changed the process....how many straws do you keep stashed up there?

[JaysFan]

18 months after they were informed and when it leaked out and became public knowledge that there was a problem

You forgot to mention that small fact.

[M.Dancer]

You should be happy that I'm giving you another place where you can shrug off human rights violations.

*edit -

Oh yea, before you foam at the mouth, I should say, "alleged" human rights violations.

I get the impression that you, wulf and gabriel are the only ones hoping these cats were beaten. For different reasons of course, for different reasons.

[naomiglover]

I get the impression that you, wulf and gabriel are the only ones hoping these cats were beaten. For different reasons of course, for different reasons.

Good try.

You have a habit of deflecting any chance you get.

You fall on the same list as Wulf and Gabriel. The only difference is that they're honest about their obvious hatred, racism and bigotry towards 'these cats' and you, unsuccessfully, try to mask yours.