Ft Hood Terror Attack

November 9, 2009

Being a Muslim seems to be a good reason to question someone. At least that seems to be the opinion of some of the posters in this thread who will not miss an opportunity to generalize and stereotype Muslims into one group of terror loving psychopaths.
That's discrimination.

Questioning a soldier because he is a Muslim is discrimination. Questioning a soldier who exhibits anti-Americanism is not discrimination. NOT questioning a soldier who exhibits anti-Americanism out of fear of appearing discriminatory because he's Muslim is the other side of the coin of discrimination, and any extreme is wrong. And that was my point.

Do you think he should have been spared being questioned because he's Muslim?

Gabriel · November 9, 2009

Being a Muslim seems to be a good reason to question someone. At least that seems to be the opinion of some of the posters in this thread who will not miss an opportunity to generalize and stereotype Muslims into one group of terror loving psychopaths.

That's discrimination.

Show me one post from one person who has suggested that Muslims need to be given special attention. Or better yet, why don't you just address American Woman's comments? How can you talk to her and ask her to defend allegedly discriminatory statements WHICH SHE HASN'T MADE? Address her point(s) directly, and don't deflect by asking her to respond to the posts of others.

I've stated my position explicitly, already. Being a Muslim (devout or not) is NOT a red flag. It becomes PART of a red flag, however, when it is combined with and/or supports extremist ideologies/perspectives. Major Hasan made no secret of his extremist views of the war on terror (equating it to a war on Islam, typical of the extreme left and extreme Islamic terrorist supporters), and expressed concerns about battling what he viewed as "fellow Muslims" (indicating he had a stronger loyalty to the terrorist enemies than to American soldiers). All of this evidence (of which I've only shared a shred), COMBINED with his religious Muslim lifestyle are HUGE RED FLAGS and he SHOULD HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM HIS POSITION.

This isn't discrimination, this is responsible human resource management. People are screened all the time on all sorts of variables with respect to their suitability for a given position. The army should be no different - if there are extreme circumstances which would reasonably suggest that an individual is a hazard/danger/liability (that's putting it lightly in the case of Major Hasan, given his extremist views), then the individual must be removed. To ignore the problem is negligence. I hope that people are held accountable for this tragedy, which was 100% avoidable. Common sense was thrown out the window and now thirteen people are dead with many more injured.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Gabriel

xul · November 9, 2009

Being a Muslim seems to be a good reason to question someone. At least that seems to be the opinion of some of the posters in this thread who will not miss an opportunity to generalize and stereotype Muslims into one group of terror loving psychopaths.

That's discrimination.

I think she was just commenting on this:

Classmates participating in a 2007-2008 master's program at a military college complained repeatedly to superiors about what they considered Hasan's anti-American views. Dr. Val Finnell said Hasan gave a presentation at the Uniformed Services University that justified suicide bombing and even told classmates that Islamic law trumped the U.S. Constitution.

If he was a civilian, I would agree with you that he has the right to express his opinion on such issue.

Being a soldier, of course he also has the right to express the opinion if it is not in the public. But I agree with American Woman that his superior should investigate into and consider his political and religious inclination and decide whether he still suits being a soldier, or at least they should consider his dispatch and maybe it is better to send him to another region.

Gabriel · November 9, 2009

Questioning a soldier because he is a Muslim is discrimination. Questioning a soldier who exhibits anti-Americanism is not discrimination. NOT questioning a soldier who exhibits anti-Americanism out of fear of appearing discriminatory because he's Muslim is the other side of the coin of discrimination, and any extreme is wrong. And that was my point.

Do you think he should have been spared being questioned because he's Muslim?

I think it is abundantly clear that naomi is not a serious poster - either completely devoid of honesty or intelligence (or both). All of his/her posts are entirely predictable and unworthy of further response, IMO. I have also read some of naomi's posts regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, he/she is clearly a warped individual more concerned with developing a persona of being "even-handed" (in other words, morally justifying the crimes of our enemies) than with being honest, practical, and intelligent.

Clearly naomi is trying as hard as he/she can to shape this into a debate about discrimination, which is completely irrelevant to this issue. His/her efforts are so transparent and pathetic. He/she is more than likely an arts student majoring in "human rights".

As an aside, I feel there is a legitimate concern among all of us to warn and guard against prejudice "retaliation" attacks that certain idiots may attempt to execute against Muslims/Muslim communities. Muslims must be vigilant these days to protect themselves from the idiots who would associate these terrible acts with them and their communities. That being said, we cannot ignore the relationship between extremist views and fringe aspects of Islam. I also hope that relevant authorities are thoroughly investigating any and all mosques this guy attended, all websites he frequented, all of his close friends and his family members. I cannot believe for one second that he operated entirely alone, and hope some other would-be murderers are apprehended, prosecuted, and convicted.

jbg · November 9, 2009

Questioning a soldier because he is a Muslim is discrimination. Questioning a soldier who exhibits anti-Americanism is not discrimination. NOT questioning a soldier who exhibits anti-Americanism out of fear of appearing discriminatory because he's Muslim is the other side of the coin of discrimination, and any extreme is wrong. And that was my point.

Do you think he should have been spared being questioned because he's Muslim?

Again, AW, you sum it up beautifully. Your views are actually similar to mine, even if to some I apppear anti-Muslim.

jbg · November 9, 2009

I think it is abundantly clear that naomi is not a serious poster - either completely devoid of honesty or intelligence (or both). All of his/her posts are entirely predictable and unworthy of further response, IMO. I have also read some of naomi's posts regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, he/she is clearly a warped individual more concerned with developing a persona of being "even-handed" (in other words, morally justifying the crimes of our enemies) than with being honest, practical, and intelligent.

Even as a new member (welcome aboard) you nailed her perfectly.

wulf42 · November 9, 2009

A supposedly moderate professor from a country supposedly friendly to the United States...with a rather un-moderate view-point. While millions of Muslims are not like him, I notice the audience applauds what he has to say.

This filthy animal is the reason the U.S and Israeli's should keep their nukes armed and ready!!If i were Obama i would let these animals

know if such an attack were to happen on the U.S. ....the resulting

wrath would be quick and complete on the attacking

group or country responible including the use of limited Nuclear strikes!

I wonder how these terror groups would feel if the U.S threatened to wipe Mecca

off the planet? Likely not to positively so why do they act surprised when the U.S.A is reacts negatively toward them and their threats?

Edited November 9, 2009 by wulf42

Michael Hardner · November 9, 2009

Wulf,

This filthy animal is the reason the U.S and Israeli's should keep their nukes armed and ready!!If i were Obama i would let these animals
know if such an attack were to happen on the U.S. ....the resulting

wrath would be quick and complete on the attacking

group or country responible including the use of Nuclear or Bio Weapons!

I wonder how these terror groups would feel if the U.S threatened to wipe Mecca

off the planet? Likely not to positively so why do they act surprised when the U.S.A is hostile towards them and their threats?

Allowing the enemy to program your strategy is a key failing. After 9/11, Bin Laden dared the US to come over to the ME and they did. The US can defeat this type of fundamentalism by continuing to offer a better alternative - a pluralistic open society that allows individuals to work and pursue their own future, IMO.

Gabriel · November 9, 2009

Wulf,

Allowing the enemy to program your strategy is a key failing. After 9/11, Bin Laden dared the US to come over to the ME and they did. The US can defeat this type of fundamentalism by continuing to offer a better alternative - a pluralistic open society that allows individuals to work and pursue their own future, IMO.

Aside from us clearly going off on an irrelevant tangent, your statement doesn't make any sense. Think about what you just suggested: that we in the free world should combat our enemies (who make no secret of their intentions to continue attacking us with terrorism) by continuing to live in free and pluralistic societies. You couldn't be any MORE nonsensical. How is living free going to protect us from our enemies? Our civilization will continue to be free, prosperous, and pluralistic while we annihilate our enemies. Unfortunately, we in the civilized world feel compassion for our enemies and utilize a fraction of our military capabilities. We also adhere to "laws of war" and "rules of engagement" that all of our enemies use against us. The vast majority of our casualties and injuries are the result of our forces fighting with their hands tied behind their backs. Where they must wait to be shot at before responding. Where we criticize our our forces for using too much force, when the blood of all civilian casualties is on the hands of our terrorist enemies. I'm gonna stop typing, as this subject drives me mad. Every time I read of another casualty and injury, it sickens me that it's happened because we value the lives of our enemies before those of our soldiers. This war is only continuing endlessly because of the half measures we're utilizing to prosecute it.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Gabriel

DogOnPorch · November 10, 2009

This filthy animal is the reason the U.S and Israeli's should keep their nukes armed and ready!!

We still don't actually know if Israel has atomic weapons. We do assume they do though for various arcane reasons...that's the way they like it. Paper tiger or real tiger?? Wanna take a chance?

This professor spouting hopes of mass-civilian death via anthrax and blowing-up nuclear power plants is busy teaching students in friendly Kuwait as we speak, I guess. Yay... I suppose the big question would be: is he an extremist? Or is he merely average for Kuwait.

I wonder how these terror groups would feel if the U.S threatened to wipe Mecca
off the planet?

Luckily, the US isn't that sort of country. Terrorists actually count on that. Fact is, a single Ticondaroga GMC could level enough of the Middle-East by itself all the way from the Indian Ocean that it'd never be the same again. But that would be total war...not seen since WW2.

MH: Allowing the enemy to program your strategy is a key failing. After 9/11, Bin Laden dared the US to come over to the ME and they did. The US can defeat this type of fundamentalism by continuing to offer a better alternative - a pluralistic open society that allows individuals to work and pursue their own future, IMO.

I have to agree with Gabriel here that this would be a very dangerous tactic to adopt.

Hippy #1: Let's hold hands and dance in yon field...I'm sure those nasty people with guns will join us when they see how much fun it is.
Hippy #2: What if they don't like dancing...?

Hippy #1: Oh please...everybody loves dancing...wheeeeeee!

Edited November 10, 2009 by DogOnPorch

naomiglover · November 10, 2009

Sounds as if a mix of religion and politics likely played into the situation you discribe. Sometimes people are mentally unstable, but unless there is an underlying cause, they don't go ballistic. Sometimes, too, the underlying cause helps make people mentally unstable.

So many things can trigger these mentally unstable people to commit atrocious acts. Why is Islam not triggering the 1.5 billion Muslims around the world to do the same? What about the over 3000 Muslims serving in the U.S. military now? Do they not practice the same faith as the guy who went and killed his fellow servicemen? What about the hundreds of thousands of Muslims living in the U.S.? Why aren't they going around killing people?

The underlying cause for this Muslim man's killing of 13 people cannot be blamed on religion, just like religion cannot be blamed for the killing of 29 people by the Jewish settler.

wulf42 · November 10, 2009

Wulf,

Allowing the enemy to program your strategy is a key failing. After 9/11, Bin Laden dared the US to come over to the ME and they did. The US can defeat this type of fundamentalism by continuing to offer a better alternative - a pluralistic open society that allows individuals to work and pursue their own future, IMO.

I agree that the U.S may defeat them with the

offer of a better society...but i also think it is very

important to let them know that if (U.S.) attacked again and

attacked on the scale that this dirtbag in the video

has suggested, that a horrific strike will result upon their homeland!

The Arab world has never launched a 9/11 style attack

on Israel and the reason why? they know if they were

were to do so the response would be overwhelming and devastating

to the entire Arab world.The Israeli's are not concerned with world

opinion they simply would wipe out half the Arab world within an hour

of a major attack!

Edited November 10, 2009 by wulf42

Gabriel · November 10, 2009

So many things can trigger these mentally unstable people to commit atrocious acts. Why is Islam not triggering the 1.5 billion Muslims around the world to do the same? What about the over 3000 Muslims serving in the U.S. military now? Do they not practice the same faith as the guy who went and killed his fellow servicemen? What about the hundreds of thousands of Muslims living in the U.S.? Why aren't they going around killing people?

The underlying cause for this Muslim man's killing of 13 people cannot be blamed on religion, just like religion cannot be blamed for the killing of 29 people by the Jewish settler.

NOBODY BLAMED RELIGION! NOBODY SAID ISLAM IS TO BLAME FOR THIS ACT OF MURDER! STOP MISCHARACTERIZING OUR STATEMENTS! What the hell is wrong with you? Can you not read and comprehend what's been said? Nobody has said anything even CLOSE to suggesting that Islam is some sort of evil religion that compels people to commit murder. What some of us DO realize, however, is that some followers of Islam perceive their religious duties in a very extreme and hateful way. These extremist views often overlap into their political/ideological views. In the case of Major Hasan, it is now known that his religious perspectives greatly shaped his political and ideological perspectives - and that these perspectives were the motivations for his criminal acts. Clearly it is much easier for you to imply that we are prejudice or anti-Islamic rather than simply address our reasoned perspectives and analysis. To deny that this man's perspectives of religion and politics DIDN'T compel him to commit this mass murder is the HEIGHT OF STUPIDITY (or massive dishonesty, take your pick).

STOP MISREPRESENTING OUR WORDS AND LYING ABOUT WHAT WE SAY! Nobody here is denigrating the overwhelming majority of Muslims who live in harmony in the USA and serve honourably in its military. All we are saying, CLEARLY, is that Major Hasan was on the fringe with respect to his religious perspectives and politics (i.e. equating the war on terror with a war on Islam, a typical extremist Muslim, anti-American, and left-wing opinion). He is NOT representative of mainstream Muslims or Muslims on the whole.

You are OBSESSED with shaping an argument that hasn't been made, and then attacking it. It is called a strawman argument.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Gabriel

Gabriel · November 10, 2009

I agree that the U.S may defeat them with the

offer of a better society...but i also think it is very

important to let them know that if (U.S.) attacked again and

attacked on the scale that this dirtbag in the video

has suggested, that a horrific strike will result upon their homeland!

The Arab world has never launched a 9/11 style attack

on Israel and the reason why? they know if they were

were to do so the response would be overwhelming and devastating

to the entire Arab world.The Israeli's are not concerned with world

opinion they simply would wipe out half the Arab world within an hour

of a major attack!

Michael Hardner is basically suggesting that if we get attacked, our response should be to "keep living free and pluralistically". In other words, murder us, and we'll respond by smiling and being happy and all things nice. ABSURD. Freedom and pluralism has nothing to do with keeping us secure. Our society is and will remain to be pluralistic while we destroy our enemies.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Gabriel

Michael Hardner · November 10, 2009

Gabriel,

I wasn't addressing a specific response to an attack, but rather a general response to the challenge posed.

Shady · November 10, 2009

The Arab world has never launched a 9/11 style attack

on Israel and the reason why? they know if they were

were to do so the response would be overwhelming and devastating

to the entire Arab world.

This is complete nonsense. Attacks like 9/11 don't happen to Israel because their security programs do something we refuse to do. Profile. If you fit a certain profile, you will never board an Israeli airline.

And it seems to me, that the several instances of the surrounding Arab countries going to war with Israel would be considered a step up from a 9/11 style attack. But I guess you don't think so.

naomiglover · November 10, 2009

NOBODY BLAMED RELIGION! NOBODY SAID ISLAM IS TO BLAME FOR THIS ACT OF MURDER! STOP MISCHARACTERIZING OUR STATEMENTS! What the hell is wrong with you? Can you not read and comprehend what's been said? Nobody has said anything even CLOSE to suggesting that Islam is some sort of evil religion that compels people to commit murder. What some of us DO realize, however, is that some followers of Islam perceive their religious duties in a very extreme and hateful way. These extremist views often overlap into their political/ideological views. In the case of Major Hasan, it is now known that his religious perspectives greatly shaped his political and ideological perspectives - and that these perspectives were the motivations for his criminal acts. Clearly it is much easier for you to imply that we are prejudice or anti-Islamic rather than simply address our reasoned perspectives and analysis. To deny that this man's perspectives of religion and politics DIDN'T compel him to commit this mass murder is the HEIGHT OF STUPIDITY (or massive dishonesty, take your pick).

STOP MISREPRESENTING OUR WORDS AND LYING ABOUT WHAT WE SAY! Nobody here is denigrating the overwhelming majority of Muslims who live in harmony in the USA and serve honourably in its military. All we are saying, CLEARLY, is that Major Hasan was on the fringe with respect to his religious perspectives and politics (i.e. equating the war on terror with a war on Islam, a typical extremist Muslim, anti-American, and left-wing opinion). He is NOT representative of mainstream Muslims or Muslims on the whole.

You are OBSESSED with shaping an argument that hasn't been made, and then attacking it. It is called a strawman argument.

In case you missed the whole thread, there is a debate about Islam being the cause for this killing spree.

By the way, your keyboard buttons seem to be stuck on screaming.

naomiglover · November 10, 2009

This is complete nonsense. Attacks like 9/11 don't happen to Israel because their security programs do something we refuse to do. Profile. If you fit a certain profile, you will never board an Israeli airline.

And it seems to me, that the several instances of the surrounding Arab countries going to war with Israel would be considered a step up from a 9/11 style attack. But I guess you don't think so.

You don't think countries like the U.S. and Canada profile?

Edited November 10, 2009 by naomiglover

November 10, 2009

So many things can trigger these mentally unstable people to commit atrocious acts.

Yes, and religious beliefs is one of them. Do you believe otherwise?

Why is Islam not triggering the 1.5 billion Muslims around the world to do the same? What about the over 3000 Muslims serving in the U.S. military now? Do they not practice the same faith as the guy who went and killed his fellow servicemen? What about the hundreds of thousands of Muslims living in the U.S.? Why aren't they going around killing people?

Not every Muslim is a fundamentalist/extremist, not every Muslim is violent, and I have never claimed otherwise.

The underlying cause for this Muslim man's killing of 13 people cannot be blamed on religion, just like religion cannot be blamed for the killing of 29 people by the Jewish settler.

It's not a black and white issue. His religious beliefs, which is not synonymous with "religion," could very well have been the underlying cause. According to other students, he has not only justified suicide bombings, but he said that the Koran overpowers the Constitution. What else can one "blame" that belief on, other than his religious beliefs?

Edited November 10, 2009 by American Woman

eyeball · November 10, 2009

This filthy animal is the reason the U.S and Israeli's should keep their nukes armed and ready!!If i were Obama i would let these animals

know if such an attack were to happen on the U.S. ....the resulting

wrath would be quick and complete on the attacking

group or country responible including the use of limited Nuclear strikes!

I wonder how these terror groups would feel if the U.S threatened to wipe Mecca

off the planet? Likely not to positively so why do they act surprised when the U.S.A is reacts negatively toward them and their threats?

It's just a hunch but, because there are more than a few people like you out there? :unsure:

Shady · November 10, 2009

You don't think countries like the U.S. and Canada do not profile?

Not nearly enough. I've seen it with my own eyes while in line at airports. We waste time with random searches, as if we face a threat from older asian women for example.

wulf42 · November 10, 2009

It's just a hunch but, because there are more than a few people like you out there?

See what you don t understand oddball ....is that i don t want to hurt anyone

and never will unlike these crazed fanatical maniac's like the one in the video

which you likely never bothered to watch! You can t be that stupid you can t realize these people are at war with us and there are millions of them in Pakistan

Saudi Arabia,Iran..etc that feel the same way, good lord a 4 year old could

figure that out.My point is comparing me to a Islamc maniac fantical Killer

makes you look umm well errr.....stupid!

Edited November 10, 2009 by wulf42

wulf42 · November 10, 2009

This is complete nonsense. Attacks like 9/11 don't happen to Israel because their security programs do something we refuse to do. Profile. If you fit a certain profile, you will never board an Israeli airline.

And it seems to me, that the several instances of the surrounding Arab countries going to war with Israel would be considered a step up from a 9/11 style attack. But I guess you don't think so.

A few year's ago after Israel bombed the crap out of Gaza, the leader

for Hizbullah said he regretted kidnapping two Israeli soldiers

because he didn t realize the wrath the Israeli's would inflict

on Gaza! The Israeli's know how to deal with these people, we in

the West should learn from them you can't appease them

or not respond to their crap! an action should be met with a strong reaction!

As far as Arab countries going to war with Israel? i at least have more respect

for that! they at least fought like soldiers and as men not the sniveling maggots

we see today who kill women and children.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/aug/28/syria.israel

Edited November 10, 2009 by wulf42

Gabriel · November 10, 2009

In case you missed the whole thread, there is a debate about Islam being the cause for this killing spree.

By the way, your keyboard buttons seem to be stuck on screaming.

What's been happening in the two threads about this story is clear - people such as yourself attempting to mischaracterize those of us who are concerned about extremists living among us (religious and/or political) in sensitive positions by describing us as prejudiced or racist. In other words, when those of us who are observant enough and honest enough to acknowledge that there is such a thing out there as Islamic extremism (often combined with extremist political left-wing and anti-American/anti-Western perspectives) that threatens our security, you and those like you quickly intervene and throw negative labels at us for unknown reasons. Perhaps you enjoy being pathologically dishonest. Perhaps you truly are a simple person incapable of comprehending simple realities. Who knows? I've given up on trying to understand those like you who consistently misrepresent reality and support our enemies.

The motivations of this killer are obvious. The investigators (and the rest of us rational and honest observers) know why Major Hasan committed mass murder. What is baffling is why people like you are so desperate to derail this into an issue of prejudice or racism, making victims out of Muslims and/or Arabs.

You also said this - You don't think countries like the U.S. and Canada do not profile?

Please explain to me how a country profiles any group? This has got to be one of the stupidest statements I've ever read. Perhaps you meant to say that a particular law enforcement agency profiles some groups under some circusmtances? Such as white adult males in their late thirties and older being the profile of serial killers?

You could not be any MORE vague. Please explain how a country like Canada or the USA profiles.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Gabriel

Gabriel · November 10, 2009

Gabriel,

I wasn't addressing a specific response to an attack, but rather a general response to the challenge posed.

Continuing to do as we do (living freely and pluralistically) isn't a response. If I get attacked outside my office, do I respond by continuing to work? Or should I actually use my brain and attempt to obtain justice? Do yourself a favour and acknowledge that your statement was nonsensical.

We will always be free and pluralistic as long as we are vigilant to preserve this quality of our society. At the same time, we must be vigilant and destroy our enemies who wish us harm. These options aren't mutually exclusive, nor are they related to one another. Continuing on with business as usual ain't a response.