Flip Flop Iggy Flips again

[punked]

Wow. So angry.

Not in the least. Liberals have flipped and flopped and sold out progressives for years now. They can run on an NDP platform again they did in the 90s but if they think people wont call them out for it because their supports refuse to look at the facts it just isn't true. You are wrong on a lot in this thread sorry. It isn't anger it is just the way it is.

[PIK]

So after reading all this it seems harper is the only one that tells the truth,it is the other 2 that are playing the games. I honestly don't think harper wants one,he is enjoying doing a good job for the country and why screw it up. Since the GTA is going to put dalton back in ,who is to say harper can't be turfed.

[GWiz]

Ok, there are a lot of truths and good points on this thread... I can agree with much of what's being said... I too feel that it's the Liberal "back room boys" that are the problem in the Liberal party... The person I supported at the last Liberal convention was Ken Dryden (head and shoulders above the rest in policies and understanding Canada with no "baggage" like Iggy, Ray, Dion, etc. had) and I wouldn't have had a problem with Kennedy (also no "baggage" but I thought a little vaque on policy) should he have made it in... Now, having said that, and since I'm no longer a member of any party, I'm forced to take a hard look at just the facts and choices we as Canadians have... As was said, and I agree, it's a choice of the least of evils... Have you actually listened to "Iggy" speak, all of a speech, not media excerps and spin? Have you attended one of his "town halls" and asked him a question? I've done both of those as a friend of Kevin Lamoureau one of Canada's newest MPs from the last bi-election who btw was the hardest working, most constituent oriented, MLA I've ever seen or known for 17 years (some as the only Liberal MLA in the Ledg.), and can tell you that "Iggy" is a far better man (although not necessarily a great politician, which may not be that bad a thing) than I had thought before I witnessed and met the man... The one thing I can tell you is that he truly cares about Canada and Canadians... He's smart (but not politically smart) beyond being just an intellectual... He has no ego that prevents him from seeing opposing viewpoints and anylizing them on their relative merits, a good thing actually, but not so much politically, as this thread indicates... In my view his biggest drawback is that he listens too much to "political advisors" aka those "back room boys" (since he's not really a politician per say)... As I've said, he's a smart and caring man, worldly, and someone who understands finances pretty good and HATES deficits... Smart enough, I hope, to listen to the right advisors as he gets more "seasoned"... So, you'll have to make up your own mind... Would you prefer someone like I just described, namely "Iggy", or a Moronyesque Stephen Harper, or parish the thought a Jack Layton... However, the real truth is, you are probably NOT going to be voting for any of them (unless you happen to be in one of their ridings) but rather for a person that lives quite near you with many of the same concerns and issues you have... Check them all out, talk to all of them, grill them, hold their feet to the fire so to speak, then decide who would represent YOU the best... Who is the strongest in representing YOU above the party interest... That's what I'm gonna do, but I still can't vote for either a Conservative or NDP (wasted vote anyway) candidate so I'm stuck with voting Liberal or wasting my vote (I ALWAYS vote and so should you) on a Green Party or independent candidate, we'll have to see... Incidently, my current MP is a Con. who only got in because the Liberals and NDP split the vote, which is, in truth, an example of what happens throughout most of Canada and the only reason the Harper Cons. are the Gov. of the day...

[punked]

I have attended the town halls I was unimpressed. The Liberal talked circles around himself and could not nail one position he had down. In fact I have been to two town halls with the Liberal leader. I have had enough with "Liberal" politics. I vote for who and what I believe. Those policies are mostly NDP ones, that and I know the Liberals will NEVER deliver on the progressive policies they promise. It will be more taking from EI to hand out Corporate tax cuts.

PS I find Liberal rhetoric like this the funniest thing ever

"NDP (wasted vote anyway)". Seriously dude you do not see how after you talk about how much you like Kevin Lamoureau and how great he is and how you voted for him as an MLA that you look an idiot when you say NDP wasted vote anyway. SERIOUSLY?!?! Unless you mean wasted vote from a policy perspective which I don't think you do because the Liberals seem to love their policy so much they take it a year or two after the NDP have been field testing it for them.

You voted for a provincial Liberal in a province that hasn't seen more then 3 provincial Liberals get elected in 20 years. They don't even have enough MLA's to have caucus. What party hackory. I don't think voting for someone who is a great candidate a waste of vote no matter what party they belong to but you clearly do. Oh no wait you don't you just are a party hack. Your colours are showing.

Edited January 27, 2011 by punked

[GWiz]

I have attended the town halls I was unimpressed. The Liberal talked circles around himself and could not nail one position he had down. In fact I have been to two town halls with the Liberal leader. I have had enough with "Liberal" politics. I vote for who and what I believe. Those policies are mostly NDP ones, that and I know the Liberals will NEVER deliver on the progressive policies they promise. It will be more taking from EI to hand out Corporate tax cuts.

PS I find Liberal rhetoric like this the funniest thing ever

"NDP (wasted vote anyway)". Seriously dude you do not see how after you talk about how much you like Kevin Lamoureau and how great he is and how you voted for him as an MLA that you look an idiot when you say NDP wasted vote anyway. SERIOUSLY?!?! Unless you mean wasted vote from a policy perspective which I don't think you do because the Liberals seem to love their policy so much they take it a year or two after the NDP have been field testing it for them.

You voted for a provincial Liberal in a province that hasn't seen more then 3 provincial Liberals get elected in 20 years. They don't even have enough MLA's to have caucus. What party hackory. I don't think voting for someone who is a great candidate a waste of vote no matter what party they belong to but you clearly do. Oh no wait you don't you just are a party hack. Your colours are showing.

I guess my post was a little long for you to actually read it... I'd answer your post, but since I'd be wasting my time with someone who is as clearly brainwashed by the NDP as you, I won't bother... Good on you if you actually vote, even if you waste it, whomever you vote for, way too many Canadians don't vote at all... Keep right on voting for the NDP and electing federal Conservatives... As ye sow, so shall ye reap... btw, I've never voted for Kevin, he's not in my riding, I just helped him defeat the NDP candidate in a strong NDP riding previously held by Judy Wishy-washy lies...

[madmax]

I think there's a difference. The Liberals have never shied away from the responsibility of keeping parliament going. When you have a government that makes every piece of legislation a confidence issue and 9 times out of 10 refuses to negotiate with the opposition on legislation, there's either an election after every vote or one party has to be reasonable to make sure it doesn't happen. Would you honestly like to spend 300 million every 8 weeks on elections that would change nothing? Because when you accuse the Liberals of flip flopping because they don't want an election, that's exactly what you're saying.

No its not what anyone is saying, except Liberals.

Its why Liberals look like such a bad option today. That has not always been the case. But the public has possibly tired from Liberal Flip Flops.

Keeping a Government in power that is doing harm to its citizens with bad policies is worth taking down and falling on your sword if you must. What is the point of passing the POOP and EATING IT, if the consequence is that u lose an election and you have to watch CPCs pass the POOP and EAT IT.

Fact is Liberals Supported many of these bad policies, for many reasons.

This is not unsual for Liberals to campaign on one side and enact the opposite.

However the Hypocritical position of Ignatieff cannot be hidden.

And this is the problem.

Unlike previous about faces and campaigns....

Free Trade being one (Remember the Liberals wanted Free Trade Style Reciprocity for over 100years) but when the Conservatives changed under Mulroney to Go for it, changing their position after 100+years, it was rather rediculous that Canadians Voted Liberal as an option against Free Trade.

Liberal Little Red Book soon lost its luster after 12 years in office.

Thus the Liberals can campaign on many things, but to campaign from "the left" on issues such as Corporate Tax cuts, hits the highest levels of Hypocrisy.

I don't know whether or not Canadians will bite or not.

But I wouldn't trust a Liberal with this issue. And that is the position Ignatieff has decided to lead his party on heading into an election.

It would also undermine all the historic tax cutting of Liberal Parties term in office.

OF course, don't look at the massive numbers of Corporations that left the country with Billions in their pockets leaving the employees high and dry.

And don't look at the Depleted EI funds , which weren't depleted by EI Claims.

Just look at the Liberal Party. Thats their benefit package to the Citizens of Canada and the effects of their corporate tax cuts.

Or is there a Mea Culpa coming?

Edited January 28, 2011 by madmax

[punked]

I guess my post was a little long for you to actually read it... I'd answer your post, but since I'd be wasting my time with someone who is as clearly brainwashed by the NDP as you, I won't bother... Good on you if you actually vote, even if you waste it, whomever you vote for, way too many Canadians don't vote at all... Keep right on voting for the NDP and electing federal Conservatives... As ye sow, so shall ye reap... btw, I've never voted for Kevin, he's not in my riding, I just helped him defeat the NDP candidate in a strong NDP riding previously held by Judy Wishy-washy lies...

Got it voting for a third party in provincial politics is great and federal politics it is terrible. You sound just like a Liberal. Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop. I bet your party is proud.

[Scotty]

They still are going to cut corporate tax cuts. Corporate tax cuts are still on the Liberal Agenda. Just not until the deficit is brought under control. So is that Ignatieff flip flopping or adapting to a developing situation?

It's crass politics, imho. And that's what I don't like about the man and his party over the past five years. It seems that, rather than decide what they stand for, and what policies they believe in, the Liberals consult their spinmeisters on what they think they can get traction on, and then take the appropriate self-righteous stance.

Thus I don't think Ignatieff and his party are against corporate tax cuts at all. They're simply trying to spin the tories as being in the corporate pocket, and themselves as being for the "little guy". Likewise, I don't think their opposition to the F-35 is genuine. Their party initiated the deal, after all, and if they didn't intend to buy the thing why did they spend almost $200 million of our money on helping develop it? No, I think their opposition is also based on crass politics. I think if the Tories had instead decided not to buy it the Liberals would have taken the opposite side, played the F35 a the greatest thing since sliced bread, and howled about the terrible waste of money the Tories were engaged in buy, in effect, tossing tens of millions in development money down the toilet.

Almost every position they take, including their flip-flops on immigration, have struck me as nothing more than crass politics. There's no evidence they have any principals or any interest in developing any. They'll offer up whatever policies they think they can get traction on, and oppose anything, regardless of merit, that they think they can score points on. It doesn't get any deeper than that.

[Keepitsimple]

Guess what....if the Liberals - through some alternate-universe happening - mananaged to re-gain power.....they would find a way to allow the Corporate tax cuts to continue - and they would allow the F35 purchase to go forward. We seem to have short memories about Liberals. Does anyone remember Joe Clark and his gas tax? The Liberals blasted him on it, ultimately resulting in his defeat....and as soon as the Liberals were in power.....you guesswed it - the gas tax was implemented. Is it any wonder that people just can't trust Liberals? That's not rhetorical - it's history.

[punked]

Guess what....if the Liberals - through some alternate-universe happening - mananaged to re-gain power.....they would find a way to allow the Corporate tax cuts to continue - and they would allow the F35 purchase to go forward. We seem to have short memories about Liberals. Does anyone remember Joe Clark and his gas tax? The Liberals blasted him on it, ultimately resulting in his defeat....and as soon as the Liberals were in power.....you guesswed it - the gas tax was implemented. Is it any wonder that people just can't trust Liberals? That's not rhetorical - it's history.

How about the GST?

Sept. 23, 1989: The GST is "an attack on the weaker regions of the country, regressive, against the lower income groups, invisible, sneaky and of course ... an administrative nightmare." — Liberal Leader John Turner

Nov. 28, 1989: "Mr. Speaker, the goods and services tax is a stupid, inept and incompetent tax." — Liberal MP Paul Martin

April 4, 1990: "I would abolish the GST.'' — Liberal MP Paul Martin

Sept. 27, 1990: "I want this tax dead.'' — Liberal Leader Jean Chretien

Oct. 29, 1990: "I am opposed to the GST. I have always been opposed to it, and I will always be opposed to it. It is a tax that is both regressive and discriminatory." — Liberal Leader Jean Chretien

Nov. 19, 1990: "We will continue to oppose the GST and the tax won't be long in place when the Liberals win the next election." — Opposition Leader Herb Gray

Feb. 11, 1993: "I say we will replace the tax. This is a commitment. You will judge me by that. If the GST is not gone, I will have a tough time the election after that." — Liberal Leader Jean Chretien

1993 — Liberal Party Red Book: "A Liberal government will replace the GST with a system that generates equivalent revenues, is fairer to consumers and to small business, minimizes disruption to small business, and promotes federal-provincial fiscal co-operation and harmonization."

May 2, 1994: "We hate it and we will kill it." — Prime Minister Jean Chretien

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/second-reading/blogolitics/then-now-liberals-on-the-gst/article1448783/

Seriously?!?!?

[nicky10013]

No its not what anyone is saying, except Liberals.

Its why Liberals look like such a bad option today. That has not always been the case. But the public has possibly tired from Liberal Flip Flops.

Keeping a Government in power that is doing harm to its citizens with bad policies is worth taking down and falling on your sword if you must. What is the point of passing the POOP and EATING IT, if the consequence is that u lose an election and you have to watch CPCs pass the POOP and EAT IT.

Fact is Liberals Supported many of these bad policies, for many reasons.

Ah, so YOU ARE saying that you're for endless elections. Right.

This is not unsual for Liberals to campaign on one side and enact the opposite.

However the Hypocritical position of Ignatieff cannot be hidden.

And this is the problem.

Unlike previous about faces and campaigns....

Free Trade being one (Remember the Liberals wanted Free Trade Style Reciprocity for over 100years) but when the Conservatives changed under Mulroney to Go for it, changing their position after 100+years, it was rather rediculous that Canadians Voted Liberal as an option against Free Trade.

Liberal Little Red Book soon lost its luster after 12 years in office.

And the Conservative Blue Book after only 5? Furthermore, what happened 20 years ago happened 20 years ago.

Thus the Liberals can campaign on many things, but to campaign from "the left" on issues such as Corporate Tax cuts, hits the highest levels of Hypocrisy.

I don't know whether or not Canadians will bite or not.

Who knows. However what I do know is that hypocrisy exists in every party. Our NDP friends on this board won't admit it of course, but Jack is guilty of the same thing. He can sit on his high horse and condemn the Liberals for not standing up to the Conservatives, but considering his party and his chances, anyone can say anything without having any responsibility of keeping parliament going.

But I wouldn't trust a Liberal with this issue. And that is the position Ignatieff has decided to lead his party on heading into an election.

Who would you trust?

It would also undermine all the historic tax cutting of Liberal Parties term in office.

No it wouldn't. The goal of the cuts were to keep Canada competitive. We are. We can hold off a little longer on further cuts until the deficit is brought under control.

OF course, don't look at the massive numbers of Corporations that left the country with Billions in their pockets leaving the employees high and dry.

I don't disagree. Doesn't mean we should be attracting other companies here to do business. Canadians have to come to grips with the idea that for the most part manufacturing is dead. We need to build a smart economy based on companies like RIM.

And don't look at the Depleted EI funds , which weren't depleted by EI Claims.

And?

Just look at the Liberal Party. Thats their benefit package to the Citizens of Canada and the effects of their corporate tax cuts.

This line doesn't even make sense.

Or is there a Mea Culpa coming?

Why should Ignatieff apologize for what Chretien did? Sons shouldn't have to apologize for the sins of the father.

Furthermore, next time maybe be more concise. This post is so fractured that it was almost impossible to reply to.

[nicky10013]

Guess what....if the Liberals - through some alternate-universe happening - mananaged to re-gain power.....they would find a way to allow the Corporate tax cuts to continue - and they would allow the F35 purchase to go forward. We seem to have short memories about Liberals. Does anyone remember Joe Clark and his gas tax? The Liberals blasted him on it, ultimately resulting in his defeat....and as soon as the Liberals were in power.....you guesswed it - the gas tax was implemented. Is it any wonder that people just can't trust Liberals? That's not rhetorical - it's history.

History? Really? So the future is history? Wow. It takes a special mind to spin that one around.

[nicky10013]

How about the GST?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/second-reading/blogolitics/then-now-liberals-on-the-gst/article1448783/

Seriously?!?!?

It's easy to lecture from your soapbox. ANother thing to govern. Just ask Bob Rae.

[Jack Weber]

It's easy to lecture from your soapbox. ANother thing to govern. Just ask Bob Rae.

Truth be told...Bob Rae was always a Liberal friendly Dipper...

[GWiz]

Got it voting for a third party in provincial politics is great and federal politics it is terrible. You sound just like a Liberal. Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop. I bet your party is proud.

Pretty much, there's a HUGE difference between Provincial and Federal Politics... ie - ain't no Bloc running in Provincial Politics outside Quebec to make the NDP a 4th place also ran party (you can thank Brian Morony for that one)... I can't wait for the Greens to get into Parliament in a few numbers to put those few NDPers left into a 5th place also ran party... What's it feel like never having to take responsibility for what you do and say?

[punked]

Pretty much, there's a HUGE difference between Provincial and Federal Politics... ie - ain't no Bloc running in Provincial Politics outside Quebec to make the NDP a 4th place also ran party (you can thank Brian Morony for that one)... I can't wait for the Greens to get into Parliament in a few numbers to put those few NDPers left into a 5th place also ran party... What's it feel like never having to take responsibility for what you do and say?

The greens steal the majority of their vote from the Liberals so if they get into parliament the Liberals will never govern again. Poor flip floppers. Remember In your province the Provincial Liberals make up less as a percentage of seats and votes then the NDP nationally. You call it a difference I call it what it is a Flip Flop.

[punked]

It's easy to lecture from your soapbox.

I notice it seems to be all Liberals do.

[GWiz]

The greens steal the majority of their vote from the Liberals so if they get into parliament the Liberals will never govern again. Poor flip floppers. Remember In your province the Provincial Liberals make up less as a percentage of seats and votes then the NDP nationally. You call it a difference I call it what it is a Flip Flop.

Noticed you didn't answer my question... I quess when you're irrelevant it hurts too much... You have my sympathy, you seem to need it...

[punked]

Noticed you didn't answer my question... I quess when you're irrelevant it hurts too much... You have my sympathy, you seem to need it...

Was your questions what's it feel like to never have to take responsibility? Because I am sure a Liberal can answer that question just as good as anyone else so stop playing the victim.

[nicky10013]

Was your questions what's it feel like to never have to take responsibility? Because I am sure a Liberal can answer that question just as good as anyone else so stop playing the victim.

I don't think anyone's playing the victim - merely pointing out the hypocrisy of people claiming that parties like the NDP and the CPC aren't every bit as opportunistic as the Liberals.

[GWiz]

I don't think anyone's playing the victim - merely pointing out the hypocrisy of people claiming that parties like the NDP and the CPC aren't every bit as opportunistic as the Liberals.

You got it!

When it comes to "flip flops" Layton is the Grand Master of them all... He flips and flops with the winds, the political winds... He'll be with the Cons, the Libs., even the Bloc, depending on how the winds are blowing that day... Just listen to him... On second thought, why bother, he's irrelevent anyway... Crying for a "coalition", which thankfully Ignatieff quashed, was a desperate attempt to make himself relevent... Last bi-election score Cons 2, Libs 1, NDP 0... Bye, bye Judy Wishywashylies...

[punked]

You got it!

When it comes to "flip flops" Layton is the Grand Master of them all... He flips and flops with the winds, the political winds... He'll be with the Cons, the Libs., even the Bloc, depending on how the winds are blowing that day... Just listen to him... On second thought, why bother, he's irrelevent anyway... Crying for a "coalition", which thankfully Ignatieff quashed, was a desperate attempt to make himself relevent... Last bi-election score Cons 2, Libs 1, NDP 0... Bye, bye Judy Wishywashylies...

If you think losing a Bi-election or a real election bothers me it explains why you are a Liberal. I would rather stand for something and lose 1000 elections then make promises and break everyone of them every election. See you keep just playing up what I am saying about Liberals and the Liberal party. As for Layton Flip Flops you will have to remind me them, he does a red book or anything with hundred promises all broken after 15 years in power so it is a little hard for me here to understand what you saying.

You really have a superficial understanding of politics and it explains a lot of what you have said in this thread.

[nicky10013]

If you think losing a Bi-election or a real election bothers me it explains why you are a Liberal. I would rather stand for something and lose 1000 elections then make promises and break everyone of them every election. See you keep just playing up what I am saying about Liberals and the Liberal party. As for Layton Flip Flops you will have to remind me them, he does a red book or anything with hundred promises all broken after 15 years in power so it is a little hard for me here to understand what you saying.

You really have a superficial understanding of politics and it explains a lot of what you have said in this thread.

See, the great thing about Jack is that he can stand on all his promises all he wants. That's our entire point. He can say the most grandiose stuff ever uttered because he'll never win an election and can never back it up. Like I said, there's a difference between campaigning and governing. Like we've been saying, you can stand on your soapbox and claim ideological superiority but the fact that you're still clinging to that (because you've got nothing else) says that while we may think of politics as superficial, at least we're realistic about it. Your view of things is so naive and child like it's honestly a little depressing. Society isn't static. When governing, every situation is fluid. Changes have to be made on the fly to address a problem that didn't arise during a campaign or something just not thought of. You have to work with the bureaucracy to get things done and as the Tories have found out, that's not exactly easy. Things change and so must our approach policy wise.

Yet, we have the NDP and their lackies with absolutely no experience in what governance actually is mocking people in power for not rigidly sticking to ideology. Which in itself you're being wildly naive. Your attacks in and of themselves are highly opportunistic as well. You're engaging in the same kind of crass politics you shit all over other people for.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Edited January 30, 2011 by nicky10013

[Mr.Canada]

This is the exact reason we need a Harper Tory majority in Canada. Harper has done a great job as PM in the last 5 years. NO hidden agenda in sight. Let's reward these Tories with a majority.

Harper is teaching us like a father would teach his children. Let us gather around at PM Harpers feet while he tells us a story of how to best beat back the socialist hoards at our gates. Let Harpers stories return Canada to a more simple time where each man and woman knew where they stood. We worked hard and were rewarded for it.

Speak to us PM, Canada is listening. We need your guidance like a child who misbehaves would. Canada is ready.

[Jack Weber]

This is the exact reason we need a Harper Tory majority in Canada. Harper has done a great job as PM in the last 5 years. NO hidden agenda in sight. Let's reward these Tories with a majority.

Harper is teaching us like a father would teach his children. Let us gather around at PM Harpers feet while he tells us a story of how to best beat back the socialist hoards at our gates. Let Harpers stories return Canada to a more simple time where each man and woman knew where they stood. We worked hard and were rewarded for it.

Speak to us PM, Canada is listening. We need your guidance like a child who misbehaves would. Canada is ready.

Dada Stevie.....