Flip Flop Iggy Flips again

[punked]

Remember when Dobbin came on the board and puffed his chest and said, "the NDP are now supporting the Tories the Liberals are free forever after voting with them 79 times in a row?" Well after two votes against Iggy is back to supporting Harper. I guess he is probation again or something maybe???

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/10/09/...egy-harper.html

Also where is Mister Greenthumb I think he needs to see this.

Edited October 10, 2009 by punked

[Keepitsimple]

“I'm not going to discuss what we're going to do moving forward," he said. "It's very important for me to keep the capacity to make decisions as they arise."

I guess that means "I'm sorry for being so stupid in Sudbury". In reality, he might as well backpeddle now and change his position or he'll look even worse if he supports the government out of the blue. Does it not seem like he's the host of Amateur Hour?

[capricorn]

Does it not seem like he's the host of Amateur Hour?

"If there are things I need to do better, I am certainly going to be ready to try, because I want to listen to Canadians and improve my performance any way I can."

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Just+w...4733/story.html

Does this mean Ignatieff has placed himself on probation? Will he issue himself report cards? Better yet, will he share those reports with Canadians?

[Mr.Canada]

I thought Canadians were tired of this Tory government?

Didn't Ignatieff say that Canadians wanted change?

Oh, that's right now that the Liberals are falling in the polls Canadians no longer want an election...right Mike?

[Sir Bandelot]

The only reason Canadians don't want an election, is because the Liberal party is without true leadership. When a real Liberal comes along as leader for that party, Canadians will want an election as soon as possible.

[punked]

Remember this Liberals? I do Dobbin posted it here.

Don't worry you lasted 2 votes must mean you have a spin now.

[madmax]

Good Grief

[Keepitsimple]

The only reason Canadians don't want an election, is because the Liberal party is without true leadership. When a real Liberal comes along as leader for that party, Canadians will want an election as soon as possible.

Get your head out of the sand. It's not just the leader - it's the party - it's the party that's been fighting among itself for 30 years - Turner/Chretien, Chretien/Martin, now Ignatieff/Rae. It's the backroom boys that led to importing both Rae and Ignatieff - causing a squabble that led to Stephane Dion as leader. It's the backroom boys who "annointed" Ignatieff. It's Chretien sticking his nose in the Coderre business. It's the lack of democracy within the party that allows for so many "appointments" and a leadership process that marginalizes the grass roots. There is so much pushing and pulling going on, absent of any policies, absent of any purpose, absent of any direction......and you think that simply finding "the right leader" will make people want to put the Liberals back in power. The rot in the party is wide and deep and will take many years to repair. That's why Mmanley, Rock and McKenna said "thanks, but no thanks"......they knew. There are no quick fixes back to power.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Keepitsimple

[Smallc]

The Liberals use one member one vote now. The last leadership convention was the last leadership convention.

[Topaz]

I think its best for the oppositions parties to keep Harper in there because I think in the near future, they may fall when the economy of this country doesn't recover as fast as they need it to and the debt keeps growing. One has to give credit to Iggy, becasue he did admit that there is something he's not doing right for Canadians when everyone knows Harper would NEVER admit he doing any thing wrong, Iggy is more down to earth than Harper.

[capricorn]

It's not just the leader - it's the party - it's the party that's been fighting among itself for 30 years - Turner/Chretien, Chretien/Martin, now Ignatieff/Rae. It's the backroom boys that led to importing both Rae and Ignatieff - causing a squabble that led to Stephane Dion as leader. It's the backroom boys who "annointed" Ignatieff. It's Chretien sticking his nose in the Coderre business.

As long as Chretienites and Martinites call the shots and pull the strings behind the curtain, they will foist their preferred candidates on the grassroots. I'm not fooled by the one member one vote process because only their nominees will rise to the top. Their backroom machinery is just too powerful. Unfortunately, Liberals need to wait until this bunch of clowns dies off to seek and elect a deserving and winning leader.

[ba1614]

Get your head out of the sand. It's not just the leader - it's the party - it's the party that's been fighting among itself for 30 years - Turner/Chretien, Chretien/Martin, now Ignatieff/Rae. It's the backroom boys that led to importing both Rae and Ignatieff - causing a squabble that led to Stephane Dion as leader. It's the backroom boys who "annointed" Ignatieff. It's Chretien sticking his nose in the Coderre business. It's the lack of democracy within the party that allows for so many "appointments" and a leadership process that marginalizes the grass roots. There is so much pushing and pulling going on, absent of any policies, absent of any purpose, absent of any direction......and you think that simply finding "the right leader" will make people want to put the Liberals back in power. The rot in the party is wide and deep and will take many years to repair. That's why Mmanley, Rock and McKenna said "thanks, but no thanks"......they knew. There are no quick fixes back to power.

Exactly.

And if anyone forgets what it's like with Liberals at the helm, just take a peek at what's going on in Ontario.

[Sir Bandelot]

Get your head out of the sand. It's not just the leader - it's the party - it's the party that's been fighting among itself for 30 years - Turner/Chretien, Chretien/Martin, now Ignatieff/Rae. It's the backroom boys that led to importing both Rae and Ignatieff - causing a squabble that led to Stephane Dion as leader. It's the backroom boys who "annointed" Ignatieff. It's Chretien sticking his nose in the Coderre business. It's the lack of democracy within the party that allows for so many "appointments" and a leadership process that marginalizes the grass roots. There is so much pushing and pulling going on, absent of any policies, absent of any purpose, absent of any direction......and you think that simply finding "the right leader" will make people want to put the Liberals back in power. The rot in the party is wide and deep and will take many years to repair. That's why Mmanley, Rock and McKenna said "thanks, but no thanks"......they knew. There are no quick fixes back to power.

My head is out of the sand... in fact I completely agree with every point you made! Although, in-fighting and lack of democracy is the way they all run now.

My earlier comment, was about the perception in the general pubic. Maybe the Liberals could still make it work one more time with a new leader, I don't know, but they've dropped the ball three times now, and usually thats the end of the game.

I said it recently, the best thing is for the Liberal party to go the way of the PC's, political annihilation, make room for a new Liberal party to be created, with all new members. Away with the old boys club, its no longer useful. But they won't kill it, and its a bad thing for Canada. So Canadians need to do it, at the voting booth.

[Jack Weber]

Exactly.

And if anyone forgets what it's like with Liberals at the helm, just take a peek at what's going on in Ontario.

Not saying McGuinty is a great leader,or anything,but....

We Ontarians certainly remember what it was like with Mike Harris,and his far right ideology running the show.Some of us can see how a Harper majority would probably work out,what with all the Harris thugs in high ranking cabinet positions...

Edited October 11, 2009 by Jack Weber

[Jack Weber]

My head is out of the sand... in fact I completely agree with every point you made! Although, in-fighting and lack of democracy is the way they all run now.

My earlier comment, was about the perception in the general pubic. Maybe the Liberals could still make it work one more time with a new leader, I don't know, but they've dropped the ball three times now, and usually thats the end of the game.

I said it recently, the best thing is for the Liberal party to go the way of the PC's, political annihilation, make room for a new Liberal party to be created, with all new members. Away with the old boys club, its no longer useful. But they won't kill it, and its a bad thing for Canada. So Canadians need to do it, at the voting booth.

Sadly,I agree with you.

I say sad because the voting populous seems to be stuck with three,not so great choices...

1.An NDP party that is too far to the left for most peoples ideological tastes.

2.A completely dysfunctional,on the way to being moribund,Liberal Party

3.A Conservative Party that,if given the chance in a majority position,would take alot of its ideological direction from the prairie and Albertan Reform wing of the party.

Talk about picking your poison... :angry:

Edited October 11, 2009 by Jack Weber

[Wild Bill]

Sadly,I agree with you.

I say sad because the voting populous seems to be stuck with three,not so great choices...

1.An NDP party that is too far to the left for most peoples ideological tastes.

2.A completely dysfunctional,on the way to being moribund,Liberal Party

3.A Conservative Party that,if given the chance in a majority position,would take alot of its ideological direction from the prairie and Albertan Reform wing of the party.

Talk about picking your poison... :angry:

Hey, I'm up for number 3!

Your tone indicates your own bias but when you say "We Ontarioans certainly remember..." you are being a little arrogant, don't you think? You imply that the bulk of your fellow citizens agree with you.

I live in Ontario and I don't! Mike Harris got two HUGE majorities! Somebody liked him! Since he's been gone all I ever hear is "everybody doesn't want his style again" and "everybody knows that Harris conservatism won't win at the polls".

This is presented as fact when it is merely untested opinion. The same people that hated Harris when he was in power keep squawking, trying to make their beliefs be accepted as true.

Myself, I can grant that you may be right but it's still a totally untested premise. We haven't had such an electoral choice since Harris left! Certainly not with the likes of Ernie Eves. So how do we know if the premise is true?

I also know that the things I was most upset about with Ontario government before Harris seem to be back today! The only thing I hold against him was civic amalgamation. I'm still waiting for a single example of where merging my city with Hamilton has given either better service or lower taxes. All I hear is "Oh, without amalgamation it would have been worse!" which of course is a totally unprovable statement. Still, nothing's perfect and despite initial promises no other party has been willing to change things back.

I'm not denying you have a right to your own opinion. I'm just taking exception to you claiming to speak for ME and ALL other Ontarioans!

[madmax]

Exactly.

And if anyone forgets what it's like with Liberals at the helm, just take a peek at what's going on in Ontario.

Right now the CPC are at the helm. And I wouldn't give the CPC very high marks for anything in Ontario over the past 3 years. On top of that the CPC is spending/bribing the Ontario Liberals with $4.6 Billion to implement a tax increase. That is 4.5 times more money then the CPC are putting into the new EI program. The CPC are also increasing Payroll Taxes on EI.

JUST PEEK!!!

[madmax]

Hey, I'm up for number 3!

Your tone indicates your own bias but when you say "We Ontarioans certainly remember..." you are being a little arrogant, don't you think? You imply that the bulk of your fellow citizens agree with you.

I live in Ontario and I don't! Mike Harris got two HUGE majorities! Somebody liked him! Since he's been gone all I ever hear is "everybody doesn't want his style again" and "everybody knows that Harris conservatism won't win at the polls".

Thread drift.... beware....

Harris left in the 2nd term completely out of steam and ready to make a bigger mess then the one he created. Unfortuneately few of the Harris major screwups can be reversed. However, Harrisite Hudak will not be elected in Ontario as many of the people who were picking on the poor in the late 90s have now found themselves mired in both Federal and Provincial Conservative Idealogy that has taken away a significant portion of the safety net that gets them stable and working again. No party has reversed these choices, until now, the Federal CPC are backtracking on the LPC choices on who is eligible for EI and how much they should be entitled too. And that is begrudgingly. Provincially, the Ontario Liberals have been happy to enjoy the benefits of the Harris choices. And while Harris couldn't balance the books in Good times, the Ontario Liberals could. Now in the bad times, the Ontario Liberals are a BIG FAT OVERBLOATED OVERSPENDING UNCONTROLLABLE organization that is still one election away from being removed from government.

Irony, is that John Tory may be the one responsible for getting the first salvo through the teflon, and it didn't wind its way through until after his demise. Politics is a blood sport.

Meanwhile..... Can anyone explain what Ignatieff is doing?

[Keepitsimple]

Meanwhile..... Can anyone explain what Ignatieff is doing?

No.

[Keepitsimple]

Thread drift.... beware....

Harris left in the 2nd term completely out of steam and ready to make a bigger mess then the one he created. Unfortuneately few of the Harris major screwups can be reversed. However, Harrisite Hudak will not be elected in Ontario as many of the people who were picking on the poor in the late 90s have now found themselves mired in both Federal and Provincial Conservative Idealogy that has taken away a significant portion of the safety net that gets them stable and working again. No party has reversed these choices, until now, the Federal CPC are backtracking on the LPC choices on who is eligible for EI and how much they should be entitled too. And that is begrudgingly. Provincially, the Ontario Liberals have been happy to enjoy the benefits of the Harris choices. And while Harris couldn't balance the books in Good times, the Ontario Liberals could. Now in the bad times, the Ontario Liberals are a BIG FAT OVERBLOATED OVERSPENDING UNCONTROLLABLE organization that is still one election away from being removed from government.

Irony, is that John Tory may be the one responsible for getting the first salvo through the teflon, and it didn't wind its way through until after his demise. Politics is a blood sport.

Meanwhile..... Can anyone explain what Ignatieff is doing?

Hudak's a lightweight and in many respects - today's Ontario Conservatives are like the Federal Liberals - completely adrift......but I lived through the Harris years and am thankful that he had the courage to do what he did. Once it was done, he knew his time was up. He never claimed to be a nice guy. Most people don't really appreciate the scale of problems that he faced upon coming to power. As an example, he inherited an 8 billion dollar deficit with only 45 billion of revenues. By comparison, our current premier, Mr. Mcguinty, inherited a $5 billion deficit but had $90 billion in revenues - and he considered that catastrophic. Can you do the math? Do you truly see the difference and how you could not simply stand still and hope that things got better. I remember the Rae days - taxes increased so much that businesses were fleeing Ontario and new companies didn't want to invest here. That's why revenues were in a downward spiral. Harris cut taxes - businesses came back, revenues grew - and the deficit was gone in 5 years. Healthcare has been eating up more and more of our revenues every year and it didn't stop when Harris left - it's still going on....but he initiated regionalizing of hospital facilities and closed some - a very unpopular but necessary move.

As for "that crazy funding formula" - keep in mind that it's still there to this very day - and you know why? Because it works - or at least Mr. McGuinty thinks so. It still needs some tinkering but nobody ever said it had to stay exactly as is. I remember the days when there was no central bargaining. Each school board across the province had to bargain separately with the Teacher's Union. The Union would pick on a different one every year - usually a weak one with no experience. They'd drive the hardest bargain they could, gain the most benefits and wage concessions - and then use it as a template for all boards right across the province - and if anyone refused to comply - that board's teacher's would strike until they caved. This was at a time when education was funded from property taxes....so the Unions were accountable to no one - the taxpayer just kept paying the bill as benefits and wages went up. So Harris centralized bargaining and created the funding formula - in effect stopping the bottomless union bargaining pit.

Now remember - this was all done in the context of an $8 billion deficit and $45 billion in revenues. The "crisis" from Snobelon is a good point - nothing gets done without a crisis - without huge motivation. One only need to look at Global Warming/Climate Change or H1N1. Harris was a mean son-of-a B but he knew what had to be done - he did it - and he moved on. He never asked to be liked. History will show that he actually saved Healthcare and Education in Ontario.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Keepitsimple

[ba1614]

Right now the CPC are at the helm. And I wouldn't give the CPC very high marks for anything in Ontario over the past 3 years. On top of that the CPC is spending/bribing the Ontario Liberals with $4.6 Billion to implement a tax increase. That is 4.5 times more money then the CPC are putting into the new EI program. The CPC are also increasing Payroll Taxes on EI.

JUST PEEK!!!

I don't support the HST, and I've wrote my member to express my view, nice deflection though.

I was speaking to people stepping down because of the corruption/incompetence that still thrives in the Liberal party, and why I stopped supporting them after the '04 federal election.

[Oleg Bach]

Our system is dysfunctional as is the American one - It is impossible under todays circustances and top heavey money orientated atmosphere to actually elect a real leader..real leaders are not allowed to participate in politics - Look at the Obama phenomena...totally a paper tiger and a "leader" who's character and intellectual and spiritual dynamics match the size of the little dancers scull. YOU have no leaders left - all you have are a few banker lawyers types who treat the cities and the nation as their hobby...an ant farm of sorts.. Look at the way we handle the so called war on terror that is simply a money grab for most....all it would take is one MAN to talk to these guys and set them straight - sad ...we don't have one good man available and no way to deplopy employ or elect such a person..we have a system that systemically and incrimentally created a system that slowly murdered all the good men... Good luck a holes!

[myata]

Ditto. Why would a great inspirational leader emerge (and what would they have to accomplish?) in an aging apathetic society that only, and forever wants more of the same?

I'm afraid the variety of choices we have now is a clear token of the future, and is here to stay for some time.

[punked]

It was just months ago Iggy was talking about how much he loved the oil sands now he is the new Dion with his greenshift. Looks like polls showed him Green support is weak and he wants it.

Flippy Floppy Flip Flop.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politi...article1322087/

[Shakeyhands]

It was just months ago Iggy was talking about how much he loved the oil sands now he is the new Dion with his greenshift. Looks like polls showed him Green support is weak and he wants it.

Flippy Floppy Flip Flop.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politi...article1322087/

I'm sure you'll enjoy another 4 years of Harper.