Wild Bill Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 this insinuation that native americans were not as intelligent as europeans is based on racsim and not on the facts... What has intelligence got to do with it? I thought we were arguing about culture! A particular culture can stop technological development dead in its tracks! Look how much mental energy was wasted in the Middle Ages by scholars debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Things moved very slowly between the Roman conquest of Britain and the life of James Watt and his steam engine. Culture prohibited a James Watt and his ideas from thriving any earlier. If there's not enough rain some folks develop better irrigation. Others sacrifice their first born to imaginary gods. Most cultures did both, at least in their early stages. As they developed they either leaned more to better technologies or like the South Americans, stopped after developing irrigation and stayed with human sacrificing for a few thousand years. I don't see any evidence that one culture or the other had members that were inherently smarter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachary Young Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 If we are content to remain a second rate nation - are perhaps there is merit to that perspective. I favour open immigration, and dream of a day when Canada is the most powerful and prosperous nation in the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 If we are content to remain a second rate nation And who says that we are now? We are one of the wealthiest countries on earth with one of the highest standards of living. There's nothing second rate about Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 And who says that we are now? We are one of the wealthiest countries on earth with one of the highest standards of living. There's nothing second rate about Canada. We're becoming a real Heinz 57 of a nation. Some like that concept. Others do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 They. Did. Not. Have. The. Tools.I don't know how much simpler I can put it. If we'd put a giant bubble around them five hundred years ago, and checked back today, we'd probably see them living pretty much the same lifestyle they were back then, with the same level of technology. Small nations might have risen since then - and fallen again, as they did in the south. But without the kinds of farm animals to supply large cities with meat (and clothing), and the transport to spread out and to carry that food, any civilization in the western hemisphere was inevitably going to be either very small or fail. Then how in the fuck did the build their pyramids those things are incredible. They had large cities that worked perfectly fine, They had the Llama and Alpaca, the Llama was a good pack animal and good for meat and fur, and the Alpaca was even better for meat and fur. They had large cities for a long time up until the Spanish arrived. The Mayans, Incans and Aztecs developed local civilizations which were limited by their lack of transportation, draft and meat animals, and which enevitably succumbed to those limits. The South American civilizations didn't fail because of the things you list, they failed because of disease and fighting the Spanish. Mayan and Aztec Empires Incan Empire Local empires my ass. What did the mayans accomplish which was so much better than what the Europeans accomplished - which were lasting civilizations which continue to this day to develop and prosper? The Pyrimaids, many of them, what did the Europeans create that lasted that long? As for the northern aborigines. They didn't even develop a civilization to speak of. One small city which collapsed and failed due to the reasons given above notwithstanding. One example, the Haida, and no one knows the reasons the cities failed, it sure as hell wasn't only one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Then how in the fuck did the build their pyramids those things are incredible. They had large cities that worked perfectly fine, They had the Llama and Alpaca, the Llama was a good pack animal and good for meat and fur, and the Alpaca was even better for meat and fur. They had large cities for a long time up until the Spanish arrived.The South American civilizations didn't fail because of the things you list, they failed because of disease and fighting the Spanish. Mayan and Aztec Empires Incan Empire Local empires my ass. The Mesoamerican civilizations were quite small in land area. The Pyrimaids, many of them, what did the Europeans create that lasted that long? Stonehenge, Hadrian's Wall plus similar examples of Roman mega-projects, Offa's Dyke, thousands of castles and cathedrals, etc. Lots remains of Europe's ancient history. Many modern roads in Europe are built atop old Roman roads as their base construction was so good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 The Mesoamerican civilizations were quite small in land area.Stonehenge, Hadrian's Wall plus similar examples of Roman mega-projects, Offa's Dyke, thousands of castles and cathedrals, etc. Lots remains of Europe's ancient history. Many modern roads in Europe are built atop old Roman roads as their base construction was so good. How did I forget Stonehenge and the castles/cathedrals? weird. It's debatable whether the Roman constructions can be given to the Europeans. Now if we do give them to them are any of them older than the Mayan pyramids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 How did I forget Stonehenge and the castles/cathedrals? weird. It's debatable whether the Roman constructions can be given to the Europeans. Now if we do give them to them are any of them older than the Mayan pyramids? Were Romans not from Europe? Mesoamerican civilizations are from the period we call the Middle-Ages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Were Romans not from Europe?Mesoamerican civilizations are from the period we call the Middle-Ages. The Romans Lived more around the mediterranean both in africa and parts of the middle east as well as parts of Europe. Wasn't most of Europe controled by the "Barbarians" of which the European cultures are desended from? The Maya started to build around 3000 years ago, they started on the Great Pyramid of Cholula the worlds largest monument in the 3rd century BCE and was finished in the 9th century. There are earlier ones but I wanted to point that one out specifically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 The Romans Lived more around the mediterranean both in africa and parts of the middle east as well as parts of Europe. Wasn't most of Europe controled by the "Barbarians" of which the European cultures are desended from? Rome eventually controled most of Europe (except Germany) and all of the Mediterranean. Romans are from Rome...Rome is in Italy. Italy is part of Europe. The Maya started to build around 3000 years ago, they started on the Great Pyramid of Cholula the worlds largest monument in the 3rd century BCE and was finished in the 9th century. There are earlier ones but I wanted to point that one out specifically. The structure we see at Cholula is from around the time of the Norman Conquest. The culture had been in that location much longer as you mention. Either way, Rome was already a done deal when these civilizations reached their height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 We're becoming a real Heinz 57 of a nation. Some like that concept. Others do not. So are many other first world countries. It doesn't somehow make us second rate to have diversity. People don't have to like it, but calling Canada second rate is simply untrue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 So are many other first world countries. It doesn't somehow make us second rate to have diversity.People don't have to like it, but calling Canada second rate is simply untrue. Really? What makes a country '2nd rate'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 I'm not sure. I simply don't consider a wealthy county with a high standard of living to be second rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 I'm not sure. I simply don't consider a wealthy county with a high standard of living to be second rate. So this would be an eternal thing...unaffected by outside influences? Why are some countries steaming crap-holes while others are like Canada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 I'm sure there are a variety of reasons, but I don't think that bringing immigrants here and allowing them to become part of this country is going to cause it to become second rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 I'm sure there are a variety of reasons, but I don't think that bringing immigrants here and allowing them to become part of this country is going to cause it to become second rate. In that spirit, do you mind if I pour water into your gas tank? What you wish and what reality is are two different things. There is already a term going around my industry known as 'East Indian Construction'. That's where one uses one nail instead of three. There's a reason buildings simply fall over in places like China and India. One look a China and India's mutual space programs gives an even greater indication of different standards of what is considered safe. China's Long March rocket, for example, has no procedure/method for draining the hypergolic fuel from its tanks once fueled. Hypergolic fuels can not remain on board the rocket without them doing damage to all the pumps and seals. This means if they find something amiss on the rocket before launch, they do not have "abort" as an option. Launch or the thing will explode on the pad once the seals breech. And they send humans up on these things. Both the US and Russia consider hypergolic fuels to be too dangerous for manned launches. Russia's big hypergolic fueled heavy-lifter, the Proton, has an automated system to drain the tanks since doing it by hand is VERY dangerous. Chinese technicians can be seen scrambling all over the pad area just moments before a Long March lift-off. India...same deal except they haven't managed to stick some poor bastard on top of their GSLV...yet. These standards will be our standards one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 These standards will be our standards one day. There's no proof of that and there's no reason to think so. The trend in North America is for ever higher standards, especially when it comes to safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 There's no proof of that and there's no reason to think so. The trend in North America is for ever higher standards, especially when it comes to safety. Fine. Believe what you wish. Pass me a nail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 I have no problem believing what I say in this department since safety is what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 I have no problem believing what I say in this department since safety is what I do. Safety inspector? Building inspector? Ever seen a Chinese owned apartment complex? Maintenance isn't #1 on the runway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) There are always problems and there always has been problems. Finding them and fixing them is important. I'm not saying you're wrong, but not everything is going to change for the worse. Canada is a great place, we just can't give up the pressure to keep it that way. Edited October 20, 2009 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 There are always problems and there always has been problems. Finding them and fixing them is important. Well I'll give you this. You have more faith in our system of government than I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 I have huge faith in our system of government and regulation. Our country was built on immigration that some people didn't like...and the same thing continues today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 I have huge faith in our system of government and regulation. Our country was built on immigration that some people didn't like...and the same thing continues today. I respect your opinion. But logic tells me that the more we head down this path, the more we'll be like 'them'...not the other way around. I already fear to be in front of a large truck with an East Indian driver as I'm aware of their attitude towards brake maintenance...ignore if possible...pay attention when a government safety inspector slaps them with a fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 The Mesoamerican civilizations were quite small in land area.Incan empire at it's peak 2,000,000 sq km and 20 millon peopleand size is irrelevant, do we question the tiny Greek city states contribution to knowledge?.. and Eygpt was quite small as well but it had great regional importance but that was a western bias as it held no importance for far eastern asian cultures... Stonehenge, Hadrian's Wall plus similar examples of Roman mega-projects, Offa's Dyke, thousands of castles and cathedrals, etc. Lots remains of Europe's ancient history. Many modern roads in Europe are built atop old Roman roads as their base construction was so good. you may find roads following ancient routes but they don't use their base construction for any modern roads... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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